RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 12:17:57 AM)

All right I've slogged through this mess and have a few things to add and correct.

As a preface I'm a professional software developer with better than 15 years experience and have a fairly intimate knowledge of all MS OS's as well as Mac OS's IV through X and a broad swath of UNIX/Linux flavors.

Microsoft and Bill Gatse was in the right place at the right time when IBM decided it needed a desktop OS. That CP/M was the OS IBM wanted is well known. That DR failed to license CP/M to IBM for what IBM considered a reasonable price is nobody's fault but Digital Research's. Microsoft certainly became very profitable based on the very low license fee for the early versions of PC-DOS.

Was Wordperfect better than Word at one time? Yes, absolutely without a doubt. Just as much as 1-2-3 put the desktop PC in small businesses WP put the desktop PC in law firms and clerical pools all over the country. Unfortunately WP did not evolve with changes in the PC's and end users expectations. Now the only feature of WP that I truly miss is the ability to create an index using a seperate file of words and phrases. Writing tech manuals with Word's rather clumsy system for creating indexes is a laborius and unpleasant task. Other than that Word, at present, is clearly superior to WP in both functionality and reliability.

Does Microsoft ship buggy and insecure applications? Yes and so does every other major software manufacturer.With present technology any major software project will have known faults when the product is released. To continue the test, debug, test cycle until all known faults were corrected would delay software indefinitely. Also it is simply impossible to test a program in more than a few dozen rather common software/hardware configurations. In the real world there are thousands if not tens of thousands of such configurations. That some prove to be problematic for a particular program shouldn't be all that surprising. On security the dirty little secret of the internet is that the many flavors of UNIX and Linux all have security flaws. Many will have patches released promptly after discovery but that is exactly what Microsoft does as well. The major difference is in the sheer number of people trying to find and exploit security vulnerabilities in Microsoft software.

Did Bill Gates steal the look and feel of the Mac for Windows? Not exactly. They both used the XEROX GUI and UNIX X windows as the basis of their platforms. There are a lot of Windows system calls that are named exactly like the equivalent X11 functions. But it is clear that Microsoft viewed the Mac's GUI as having a potential to reduce the market share of PC's as the Mac finally reached performance levels that made the GUI actually useful. As Microsoft at the time was jointly developing the Mac OS with Apple it doesn't seem unreasonable to believe that Microsofts engineers applied what they had learned from the Mac OS to the early Windows codebase.

Would the computing world be better off if it was Steve Jobs and Apple on top rather than Gates and Microsoft? Absolutely positively not. Jobs is an excellent huckster but has even less of an innovative nature the Bill Gates. Apple has always fared better without him than with him and only the strange cult of personality that has grown up in Mac users for Jobs, as well as his self promotion skills, have forced Apple to bring him back to wreak yet more havoc on the company. Would Kildall and Digital Research have been better than Microsoft? Again no. Kildall was a very good programmer of operating systems but he wasn't much of a businessman and would undoubtedly have not pursued the sort of aggressive strategy to expand the market for the PC that Microsoft has done. Furthermore DR never showed much interest in quality application software and Microsoft has made that the core of their business for some time.

Now speaking as developer, let me make clear that Microsoft is hands down the better system to develop software for. The OS is feature rich and fully documented and Microsoft's own development tools are superior to anything else on the market.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 12:49:33 AM)

  Synergy said......
If Microsnot was forced to release their source code, everybody and their dog would write their own versions and Microsnot's control would end.

Not sure I can agree with this, I couldnt do it and I'm damn sure my dog couldn't do it either, she even slept through it when I was burgled.

Since the experts are having a right old ding dong I am going to post what I THOUGHT was true. Probably show how little I know.

I thought that Microsoft Windows products were originally an application system running on the DOS operating system present in the original IBM mini computer.
Thats what I THOUGHT. Who originated what I dont know !




WhipTheHip -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 3:52:15 AM)

You obviously didn't bother to read the links I provided. Another
"expert" who doesn't know the history of microcomputing. 
So much for this is old news.
 
> That DR failed to license CP/M to IBM for what IBM considered
> a reasonable price is nobody's fault but Digital Research's.
 
Why pay for something when you can steal it, right?  This is your
creed?    Gary Kildall was in good faith negotiations with IBM,
when Bill Gates and Tim Paterson stole CP/M, and sold it to
IBM under a different name.   This is not disputed by anyone

familiar with Gary Kildall's lawsuit.
 
> Microsoft certainly became very profitable based on the very
> low license fee for the early versions of PC-DOS.
 
When you are selling something that is not yours, anything you
get for it is a good deal.  Artists and inventors usually want to
get top dollar for their creations.  Sometimes this hurts sales,
but it is their perogative.    It would be nice if we could all say
to sellers you are asking too much for your product, I am just
going to take it and pay you nothing. 
 
No one had anyway of knowing the future.  Gary Kildall

certainly had the right to ask whatever he wanted for
the operating system he created.
 
> Was Wordperfect better than Word at one time?
 
Wordperfect is still the better product.  I use Word and Wordperfect
side by side on my computer.  Wordperfect is a pleasure to use.  

Word is a pain in the ass.  With Wordperfect you can see the
underlying codes so if you accidently insert a code by mistake,
you can figure out what
you did wrong.  

 
With Word this is impossible.  Hanging paragraphs are much
easier to handle in Wordperfect.  I can create them in
Word, but handling them is a mess.  In Microsoft Word it is very
hard to edit the size and style of page numbers.    I like to have
-2-   -3-  -4- at the bottom of my page in a large font, this is
impossible in Microsoft Word.  Move the hanging indent on
the ruler in Microsoft World and something else always moves
on the ruler line, causing text to fall outside the page parameters.
I mastered Wordperfect in a few weeks.   I've used Microsoft
Word for ten years, and still have not mastered it. 
 
> Did Bill Gates steal the look and feel of the Mac for
> Windows? Not exactly.
 
Yes, exactly!!!!   Bill Gates admitted it.  GUI was around
in the 1950s.  Xerox did not invent it.  Xerox did some work
on it , but never patented what they did. Steve Jobs added a
lot to what Xerox had done, and did patent his innovations.
Xerox sued Apple and lost.  Xerox sued Microsoft and won.
Apple sued Microsoft and won.
 
"DomKen" late in you career you were helping Wordperfect
users adjust to Microsoft Word.  All the programmers I know
who were programmers in 1980s are multi-millionaires now.
No company would be stupid enough to ask them to help
Wordperfect customers adapt to Word.  This speaks volumes
about your programming skills, that you worked in a call

center answering such rudamentry questions.  Your
company could not find a better use for you.  Just
because someone can program does not mean they
do it well.  So many people call themselves programmers
when they couldn't program their way out of a paper bag.

If anyone has any questions they should look at at least
one of the links I provided.

 
There is no question that  Bill Gates violated the Sherman
Anti-Trust Act for ten years with impugnity, and engaged
in predatory, underhanded, unlawful practices that put
competitors out of business.  There is no question that
Bill Gates stole other programs.  The courts have ruled
this again and again with one program after another.




FangsNfeet -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 5:47:27 AM)

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Bill Gates made a statement to have a computer in every home. Though PCs are not in every single home, just about everyone now uses them. Home, work, school, library, and caffe's.

Like it or not, Gates is a Market Genius Stratigest. There's a good chance all your aligations are true but it still all adds up to being all Hear Say and everyone is trying to get a piece of the pie.

"How many people have heard of Philo Farnsworth?   I feel really bad for all the inventors who were cheated out of fame and fortune by conniving thiefs and a system that fails to protect them"


The golded rule in Business is to "Protect your Nutts" When you leave your nutts open, someone will take a crack at them. That's business.  




LTRsubNW -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 5:59:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Bill Gates DID NOT steal anything from Apple.  Holy shit.  Talk about a one trick pony.

(SirKenin, I think after seeing how vehemently he continues to defend his own ignorance, it's pointless to explain to this man why he shouldn't smoke while fueling his car...if he was as knowledgable as he claims, he'd also know that in the very early 80's, in Steve Jobs first book he tells the story of exactly how Apple stole the graphic interface from Xerox PARC).

And for what it is worth, I have used both Word and Word Perfect and Word Perfect is a buggy piece of shit.  Ever since Corel got their hands on it, they trashed it just like they do everything else.  Even Corel Draw is a buggy piece of shit, and I have several versions of that too.  Not to mention that two of My clients run printing presses so I have to support the piece of crap.

Now that I think about it... You whine and bitch like you know everything.  I would like to see you pull off what Microsoft has done.  Not that I am in love with them or anything, but you show Me any other company in the world who can release so many products, so many updates, support such a huge variety of hardware and offer the technical support they do in so many countries.  There is not one company in the entire world that can actually pull that off besides Microsoft.  Not one.

(Perzakly).




LTRsubNW -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 6:14:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
   Just
because someone can program does not mean they
do it well. 


(I think Whip has just clarified rather succinctly the argument that, just because someone can type words, or in some cases, sentences, doesn't mean they actually have the mental accuity to understand the cognitive vaules they create either).




DomKen -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 7:07:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

"DomKen" late in you career you were helping Wordperfect
users adjust to Microsoft Word.  All the programmers I know
who were programmers in 1980s are multi-millionaires now.
No company would be stupid enough to ask them to help
Wordperfect customers adapt to Word.  This speaks volumes
about your programming skills, that you worked in a call

center answering such rudamentry questions.  Your
company could not find a better use for you.  Just
because someone can program does not mean they
do it well.  So many people call themselves programmers
when they couldn't program their way out of a paper bag.


I'm letting the rest of this go since you have been corrected on numerous details numerous times but here you are making claims about me that are untrue. I've never done customer support for either Word or Wordperfect. You apparently have confused me with another poster.

Then you decide to take some cheap shots against someone you have never met. How grown up of you. Do you usualy make it a habit of shoving your stinking foot into your ignorant pie hole at every opportunity or is this recent spate of threads a special celebration of you being off your meds?




Arpig -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 7:26:16 AM)

Sheesh Ken, get a grip!! Give the whippersnapper a break here
Yang4yin did the tech support, and just looking at those two handles "DomKen" and "Yang4yin", it's easy to see how dipstick got confused, they both have the letter "n" in common. I mean its really sort of unreasonable of you to expect Whippy to actually differetiate two screennames that are so very different it is hard to concieve of to more dissimilar screennames, after all he is a "genius" who is NOT 34, who has founded a major religion that as of this morning has 1 member. Surely you can see how he just doesn't have the time to actually read anything, let alone comprehend it.

Have a nice day ~ Mankind




LTRsubNW -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 9:10:18 AM)

(Anyone else but me wondering if Whip sits at his computer saying things like "Uh oh!!! Vern...V....E....R....N....Vern...19 minutes to Woppner....definitely 19 minutes to Woppner...")




ModeratorEleven -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 9:48:06 AM)

Ok folks, please shift this away from the personal attacks before we have to get more involved.

Thanks.

XI




Termyn8or -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 10:44:40 AM)

Not bad, three pages of thread and only like three flamers. Nice.

I have heard of Philo T Farnsworth, and the almost simultateous research in England by Baird. It may also be of interest that Farnsworth was a student when he invented ______ (I am not going to say, just because)

Fallen by the wayside, yup, it happens. It happened to Quarterdeck, which during the time Windows 2.0 came out, offered a DOS shell or GUI that had near Win95 capabilities. It was called Desqview. Recently I ran across a copy in a second hand electronics store, I wish I had picked up a copy. It was on 5ΒΌ" floppies, so I would have to root around the attic for a drive, but I've thrown out all the 386s by now so it would be no use.

Thing here is the OS was still DOS, Windows was never anything more than a DOS shell. And how many games over the years have preferred to run in native DOS rather than a window ? Quite a few.

Sit in front of a PC running XP and there is nothing to remind you of Kildal, just as when you sit in front of a plasma TV you won't be reminded of Farnsworth, that's the breaks. Actually very little of Farnswoth's technology is used in a plasma TV, and none in an LCD or DLP.

Bill Gates is a quite competent businessman, now. It could be said that he ran Traff-o-meter into the ground, but the concept might have been doomed anyway, too limited a market. In today's day and age, being good in business seems to mean that one is adept at stealing, whether it's ideas or jacked up prices.

If you decide to hate Gates or Microhardon, go ahead and waste your energy. You might as well include other worthy targets, like Haliburton and KBR, the cable company, phone company and the biggest thief, the government.

Gates is dirty, there has never been a question in my mind. The debate can go on about just how dirty, and just how the loser of a lawsuit can get a gag order. But the fact remains, as long as money rules the world they will reward the promoters more than the inventors. Look at the companies where the salesmen make more than those who produce the product. It has been said that "Nothing happens until something is sold".

We also seem to live in a society where you get paid more to play than to work. On top of that, people who promote the players make even more. As people bitch about athletes making ridiculous money to play a game, take a look at the moguls in the upper offices. It comes clear why it costs $100 to go to the game now. (unless you don't want anything to eat or drink, and no, you can't bring your own)

As long as money rules, the rule is the little guy will be chewed up and spit out. It happens every day.

One story that may be of interest, one time the employee got over. White motors in the US invented the Deisel engine, so why is it called a Deisel ? Because Rudolf Deisel, who worked for White motors at the time ran real quick to Germany and patented it there. Even if he invented the whole concept, he did it as an employee so what he did was theft plain and simple. There were no international laws in place at the time to do anything about it.

I have run MEPIS and DSL Linux, not bad. I don't run it because I am not familiar enough with it, but that will change eventually. The big boys are big enough. I don't go to Walmart, I'll buy auto parts from Downtown rather than Murray's whenever possible. They are independent, have only one store and generally cater to professional mechanics. When possible I'll go to a little place called Cleveland lumber rather than Lowe's or Home Depot. Again, one store and caters to pros. Walk in either of these independent places and you will see pros who want to do it right the first time rather than doing it again.

When you deal with local businesses you are not helping the big boys get bigger, and since profit is alot more directly tied to their performance, your business is important to them. The big boys can take you or leave you, you're nothing but a face in the crowd. A profitable crowd yes, but you are only a small part of it. Walk into a Super K and don't buy any meat, so what. Walk into a small locally owned butcher shop, if you don't buy any meat the guy will wonder why. It is his livelihood on the line.

The OP's statement in the title of this thread may be an exagerration. It is akin to saying that Steven King did nothing for horror story writing. You did know that Steven King hardly writes anything now, he has a staff. He directs and controls the staff and pays them, therefore the product is his. Even if Gates never wrote a line of code in his life, he has written checks, therefore the product is his.

I was told by an IT preofessional that Microsoft's home office does not run Windows on the company PCs, at least not all of them. They run Linux. I can't confirm nor deny this, so since some here seem to be in the know, can someone tell me if this is true ? I have been told this by one IT pro, and it was confirmed by another and they do not know each other at all.

T




sissifytoserve -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 10:47:23 AM)

The old game of MONOPOLY. (Not the board game)

Rockefeller was perfect at it.

Research Standard oil of New jersey.

No different with Gates.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 11:38:06 AM)

I have never claimed to be a computor expert but I notice that Termyn8ter made the same point about Windows that I did. So thats at least two of us then. ie Windows running commands via  a DOS shell.

I was first introduced to commercial machines running Unix. Got quite proficient at writing shell scripts to examine documents. littered with hex. characters. No English at all.
Pearl, Awk etc. I mention this to reveal the level at which I operated.

When I was then exposed to a PC running DOS I was amazed at the similarity of the overall USER structure. Deep down in the bowels I just dont know what goes on.
Is this irrelevent or the kind of thieving that is driving Whip apoplectic

Just a bit of praise for me I also have a fair old knowledge of hardware, Dynamic Ram, Error checkers/correctors  Programmable i/face chips, Vectored Interrupt chips etc etc.




WhipTheHip -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 2:36:22 PM)

Sports athletes deserve every penny they get.  Soros earned his money
legally.  So did Steve Jobs and just about every other software and hardware
creater, inventer, and innovator.  The US Government does not steal
money.  I have no problem with Lowes, Home Depot or Walmart.  Stephen
King did a lot to advance the horror genre.   I have no problem with Haliburten,
the phone company, the power company, or the cable company.  The US
Government is not a thief.  But Bill Gates is the biggest software pirate of
all time, and was one of the most unethical businessmen alive in charge
of a major corporation.  I don't hate Gates, but believe the truth should be
told how he got his money.   For all their faults, Andrew Carnegie and
Rockerfellers were honest businessmen.   Bill Gates got where he is
by scullduggery, dishonesty, piracy, conniving deceit, thuggery and
strong arm tactics.  He has done nothing but hurt the development
of the PC.




Termyn8or -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 2:56:46 PM)

I agree, but somehow, Whip, you seem to miss it when anybody other than Bill Gaates does it. The Rockefellers were honest ? A BIG LOL for that one.

T




pinkee -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 3:32:24 PM)

Respectfully, Whip, i disagree with You that Carnegie, Rockefeller and the other moguls were "honest businessmen".  As only one example of their misconduct, *IMO*, the union-busting tactics they used were so egregious they should have been charged with the crimes of murder, assault, etc. 
 
It was precisely their misconduct which led to the passage of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act in 1890. 
 
*i* must also disagree with You if it is Your position that Gates is the most offensive of all corporate moguls of the modern era. 
 
Let me assure You that i can recite chapter and verse the malfeasance of other corporate CEO's etc.  The insurance industry alone makes Gates look like a choir boy.  
 
Gate's misconduct never drove any poor or elderly person out of their home; never failed to adequately respond to a massive national disaster, thus causing deaths and other suffering; never caused a shrinkage of the middle class, etc., etc., etc. 
 
pinkee




Yang4yin -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 4:12:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I was told by an IT preofessional that Microsoft's home office does not run Windows on the company PCs, at least not all of them. They run Linux. I can't confirm nor deny this, so since some here seem to be in the know, can someone tell me if this is true ? I have been told this by one IT pro, and it was confirmed by another and they do not know each other at all.

T


Not true, at least not true up until March of 2004. The only non-Windows PCs were for testing purposes.

Hotmail servers, at least at one time, did not run Windows.




WhipTheHip -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 5:30:23 PM)

Hi Pinkee,
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee
Respectfully, Whip, i disagree with You that Carnegie, Rockefeller and the other moguls were "honest businessmen". 

 
I am always willing to change my viewpoint based on the presentation of evidence.
 
> As only one example of their misconduct, *IMO*, the union-busting tactics they used were so
> egregious they should have been charged with the crimes of murder, assault, etc. 

I basically agree with you here, but the robber-barrons basically followed the laws
of the country that existed at the time.  To the best of knowledge they did business
honestly.  It was state governments and Federal government that busted the
unions at their behest.  Teddy Roosevelt was really a great president, ending
a lot of these abuses.  If the robber barrons engaged in misconduct it was with
their workers, not their competitors.  You might consider this worse. 
 
> It was precisely their misconduct which led to the passage of the Sherman
> Anti-Trust Act in 1890. 
 
Exactly, prior to the passage of the Sherman Anti-Trust act their conduct
was legal.

*i* must also disagree with You if it is Your position that Gates is the most
> offensive of all corporate moguls of the modern era. 

Actually, I never made this claim.   You can point to S&L scandal, the CEO
of Enron and World.....  whose names escape me.   Certainly, Bill Gates is
not the worst. But all these others are known for who they really are.  Bill
Gates' misconduct is for the most part not known to the general public. 

> Gate's misconduct never drove any poor or elderly person out of their
> home; never failed to adequately respond to a massive national disaster,
> thus causing deaths and other suffering; never caused a shrinkage of
> the middle class, etc., etc., etc.  

I don't think the full negative effect Bill Gates has had on computing is

recognized.  I think without Bill Gates we would have much better
software today.  Finally, I am more interested in getting Gary Kildall
the recognition he is due, than tearing down Bill Gates. 

I think we ought to change US law to protect people like Gary Kildall,
and prevent people like Bill Gates from getting away with super
highway robbery.




Sinergy -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 6:33:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Sinergy:  I have Vista.  It does not allow anything to execute without your permission.  Actually by default you are logged into a "limited account" of sorts so that it makes it difficult for any rogue software to install itself.  It is really nice.


So they can be taught.

Cool.

I run on a limited account on my XP box, logging in as superuser when I need to do something superuserish.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy




Sinergy -> RE: Bill Gates did nothing for PCs (10/8/2006 6:45:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

It comes clear why it costs $100 to go to the game now. (unless you don't want anything to eat or drink, and no, you can't bring your own)

I was told by an IT preofessional that Microsoft's home office does not run Windows on the company PCs, at least not all of them. They run Linux. I can't confirm nor deny this, so since some here seem to be in the know, can someone tell me if this is true ? I have been told this by one IT pro, and it was confirmed by another and they do not know each other at all.



Hello A/all,

I go see the Long Beach Ice Dogs play semi-professional hockey for $11.00.  This is the only professional sport I go see.  2.5 hours of grown men beating each other up, interspersed with 10-15 minutes of hockey plays.   Sure, a beer is 10 dollars, but anybody with half a brain takes a backpack and has a tailgate party in their seats.  It shocks me that somebody would pay 80 dollars to sit in the nosebleed section at a professional hockey game, where the refs stop the players from fighting.

Wtf is up with that?  I paid money for blood!

I have set up and managed UNIX (Solaris, Linux, Irix) networks for corporations.  If I were to give any credit to Microsnot it is that their products dont really require much processor power in the frontal lobe of the user to work.  It scales well, in a sense.

The problem I have with it is that an inordinate amount of processor and memory activity takes place in background (where the user cannot see it) and it tends to hobble any processor it runs on.  So the only real solution becomes "buy a bigger processor."  Since I come from a life helping design satellites, this concept simply irritates me, unless Microsoft wants to foot the bill to do the hardware upgrades on  TDRSS-R in orbit.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy




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