quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I've been gone the past few days - Have I missed some drama?

quote:

What would the signal be to call for him? The BDSM symbol projected onto the clouds?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong


I need to get my mind around something.  I'm having a problem with teenagers believing that if they tied up a Barbie as a kid and cross-dress GI Joe, they are dominant and come out of the chute straight to "Mastership" status.
 
I would like any teen Masters to share with me what they feel/believe is their criteria to become a Master.  What is their motivation? That sort of thing.  I know there is going to be “we are all different yadda yadda”.. so just list YOURS as it is for your individual situation.
 
Again, I'm serious in my query and it's not an age bashing thread. Just trying to get into their heads as I'm in a situation where I started to tutor one.  (long story.. consider it a favor to a friend :) 
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Little correction for you here Trainer, all of the Phenomina you make mention of happening after you arrived on the scene had long since been happening.
Rover is correct in that your "version" of history is at odds with the documented record.
Master and slave terms were the default terms back in the days of the Old Guard (multiple documented sources but to pick one Guy Baldin "Drummer" magazine and Ties That Bind 1963)

Assuming your claims of when you came into BDSM are accurate we came in about the same time, and the default terms of Dominant and submissive were already in common use.
So much so that they made the written record in Different Loving, The Loving Dominant, and Screw the Roses within a year or so of you comming into the scene. And while some may believe one has the right to their opinion on the subject what they really have the right to is an informed opinon. Please get the information from the actual documented history rather than simply putting forth assumptions about how things happened.

When you were watching the screen reading, I was attending munches and joining groups and sitting down with people face to face. Joined the group now known as Different Strokes back when it was still called Autum Seasons(based in Tarrent County Tx 1995), I was at the Fourth Friday Munch when it was 12 people meeting at a Bennigans in Irving Tx, Learned first basic skills as a Top at an alternative lifestyle freindly bar called Spankee's that had a twice a month event called Sadistic Sundays. I can show programs from leather events as far back as Beyond Vanilla 10 . My NLA membership card is old enough that it has changed numbers, those who have old memberships can relate. I have presented classes at large and small events on various subjects and as such my name is in the programs from some of those events. My history has been documented and the references and events can be used to give someone the appropriate level of weight to give to my opinions and statements.
Anyone can claim to have been there done that, but those that really have usually have some references, or documentation to prove it.

That is what is behind Rover's attempts to validate your history and knowledge.

For a really fun and only somewhat offensive explination that is more clear about the perspective Rover and I have been speaking of read the keynote speach Laura Antoniou  Southplains Leather Festival 2005. I give the link becaus Laura has xpressly prohibited reproduction anywhere else on the net. http://www.iron-rose.com/marketplace/keynote.htm
And yes I was there that weekend, and I can prove it, LOL.

In Leather

Archer

quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

Try not to get too hung up on "History", it's still just a point of view. The "History" of America looks different when written by Columbus or an Indian. That being said in the interest of full disclosure I am currently subbing to an 18 y.o. Dom. Mistress Lotus is acting as a mentor, but she is removed from the situation. I have 30 years experience & he has 3 minutes but is that really relevant? Rather then a lot of flaming of one another going on here you may e-mail me if you have any serious thoughts on the matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

No, I'm not stalking you. But like many regulars to these boards, we read and comment upon what interests us.  Simply put, the more you write (and you seem to write copious amounts) the more that requires correction.  Obviously leather history is not one of the subjects you teach as a trainer.
 
Here's the danger with getting your factual information from unverified online sources... it's often wrong.  That's one reason why we often ask for references from people.... it's easy for people to claim anything they want online, and it's kinda helpful to separate fact from fiction.  And in the case of your understanding of leather history, it is proveably false.
 
The terms "Master" and "slave" did not originate with Gor and bleed over to the BDSM community.  Those terms were in usage before the first Gor book was published in 1967 and date to the predominantly gay male S/M leather culture often referred to as "Old Guard" (generally speaking late '40s to early '70s). 
 
Nor did the use of "scene names" originate with the popularity of this Gorean custom, as your post implied.  Scene names were popularized in order to maintain anonymity in an era when just being gay in public was often a crime, when S/M enthusiasts placed personals ads in magazines, and when people wished to remain anonymous even when mingling amongst themselves (as is still often the case today).  Scene names were not just some cute aberration without purpose.
 
You're located in Illinois, so you might want to take advantage of the fact that you're relatively local to the Leather Archives & Museum in Chicago.  It's an authentic source of leather history.  I can also suggest a list of legitimate lifestyle historians and authors if you'd like to further your education.
 
As for your claim that the use of references is something new and distasteful, that is also factually false.  The use of references dates back to the 1950's and was actually quite a bit more common in days past.  Rather than frightening people, particularly newer folks, references are a source of information to those that wish to confirm what they are told.  People often find it helpful to know what someone's reputation is in their local community and to either confirm or deny their active involvement, demonstrated expertise, and factual history.

I'm sure this post will elicit yet another emotional outburst on your part, which I will read with delight upon my return in several days.  

John

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Little correction for you here Trainer, all of the Phenomina you make mention of happening after you arrived on the scene had long since been happening.
Rover is correct in that your "version" of history is at odds with the documented record.
Master and slave terms were the default terms back in the days of the Old Guard (multiple documented sources but to pick one Guy Baldin "Drummer" magazine and Ties That Bind 1963)

Assuming your claims of when you came into BDSM are accurate we came in about the same time, and the default terms of Dominant and submissive were already in common use.
So much so that they made the written record in Different Loving, The Loving Dominant, and Screw the Roses within a year or so of you comming into the scene. And while some may believe one has the right to their opinion on the subject what they really have the right to is an informed opinon. Please get the information from the actual documented history rather than simply putting forth assumptions about how things happened.

When you were watching the screen reading, I was attending munches and joining groups and sitting down with people face to face. Joined the group now known as Different Strokes back when it was still called Autum Seasons(based in Tarrent County Tx 1995), I was at the Fourth Friday Munch when it was 12 people meeting at a Bennigans in Irving Tx, Learned first basic skills as a Top at an alternative lifestyle freindly bar called Spankee's that had a twice a month event called Sadistic Sundays. I can show programs from leather events as far back as Beyond Vanilla 10 . My NLA membership card is old enough that it has changed numbers, those who have old memberships can relate. I have presented classes at large and small events on various subjects and as such my name is in the programs from some of those events. My history has been documented and the references and events can be used to give someone the appropriate level of weight to give to my opinions and statements.
Anyone can claim to have been there done that, but those that really have usually have some references, or documentation to prove it.

That is what is behind Rover's attempts to validate your history and knowledge.

For a really fun and only somewhat offensive explination that is more clear about the perspective Rover and I have been speaking of read the keynote speach Laura Antoniou  Southplains Leather Festival 2005. I give the link becaus Laura has xpressly prohibited reproduction anywhere else on the net. http://www.iron-rose.com/marketplace/keynote.htm
And yes I was there that weekend, and I can prove it, LOL.

In Leather

Archer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavetrainer2007


I state everything from my point of view. and thats how most people take other peoples views as views. had i wanted to state what i stated as fact ( say if i was writing a book on it) i would of provided resources from which i got such material. I was stating from my person experience what has seemed to happen to the community since ive took interest in it.  It is much different IN MY OPINION, than it was 8-10 years ago.

On another comment  made about me, actually it was a flame. i also stated i was a construction  worker had often had large amounts of time off during the winter( this is why  that new house you want cost so much to build so i can sit at home on my arse all winter). I also  never said i micro managed a  sub or slave. Im not a babysitter, if i have to control every lil  tedious task except breathing , i dont get into that.  Its not hard to train multiple girls at once. Unlike most bdsm relationships  they dont have the emotional involvement or attachment. So i dont have to  deal with all the things that go with emotional attachment. Take the emotions and attachments out of it and you free up alot of time. i guess you could compare it to  the vanilla "no strings attached" sex but as live in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavetrainer2007

Im sorry,i spend more time living the lifestyle than  looking up  references to or about it. However if i have a question about where, when, how, and by who something was started you will  be the first person i ask for sure.  Since you apparently know the entire history of BDSM. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavetrainer2007

Im sorry,i spend more time living the lifestyle than  looking up  references to or about it. However if i have a question about where, when, how, and by who something was started you will  be the first person i ask for sure.  Since you apparently know the entire history of BDSM. 

You know I didn't have a problem with you till just now. If the best defense you can mount to a person who I have seen countless times as nothing but respectful is "HAHA!!! I AM BETTER BECAUSE I LIVE THE LIFE AND AM TOO BUSY TO ACTUALLY RESEARCH THINGS!" then you are kinda well... sad.

I mean, really folks? Who needs to learn anyway? No need to research the lifestyle and it's twists and turns. No need to listen to those who actually know more than us. Let's just barge in, give out half-assed advice willynilly and get really cheezed whenever someone corrects us! I mean, what's respect in a lifestyle built on submision, dominance and trust?

Right... I'm doing that thing where I expect people to be mature. Silly me.

Snarkily yours,
Aqua

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ORIGINAL: Kalira

Aqua?

Remember

spandex

/nods earnestly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavetrainer2007


Actually, i wasnt mounting a defense. I dont need to defend myself against pixels on a screen dear. To be perfectly honest, i find some of the people here amusing. You see here is how i see  things:

your a sub.. your not every sub. Im a Dom, Im not every Dom. your taste opinion,views and whatnots of whats right wrong or just plain not interesting enough to have a view on may be different ( and probably are ) than mine and the other 6-7 billion people  in the world.  Ive seen things in this lifestyle, Or was introduced to me by people in this lifestyle that would give vanilla people nightmares.Those paticular things , some interested me some didnt,  i didnt judge. I didnt judge their interest, taste, or views and try to validate them or otherwise just plain point out that they are wrong. I didnt do this because their is one thing i am certain of and that is im not God, theirfore it is not my place to judge.

Rover may be the nicest greatest guy on earth. Archer may be too. Celeste may be the greatest sub on earth. but it is none of their places nor yours to  judge me, my interest,  my views, my opinions or validate anything in my life.  This is were BDSM was lost and this was reborn. See when i got in BDSM i learned two things right off, 1) you NEVER judge another person. 2) You always show common respect for people that show it for you. I came to these boards minding my business and giving my opinion without offending anyone. I try to give advice not play the kiddy games some seem to like to play on here.I , unfortunately, get dragged into the kiddy games because some judge me by my profile. In fact  every new person on here is IMMEDIATELY JUDGED by their profile... if you read my profile you know about this much, ., about me, my views, opinions or personality  Im not here to defend what  i do, who i am, my opinions, my interest or my intentions. I care not what 99.9% of the people in the world think of me my ways or my personality.  If i did i would of been insane along time ago.

Im here  to give my point of view on  topics and to read others points of views on topics not play war on a  message board. my responses to  comments made about me, to me or in flame of me are  for my entertainment because their is nothing interesting to read/ post on at that moment.

( From this point on this isnt directed at aquatic)
Someone once told me and i will always remember this: "You will learn to master another person you first  must learn master yourself." these rants and judgements and  i need proof of purchase from people i met 10 seconds ago have no interest in any kind of relationship with me and vice versa  are just plain childish.. if you want to judge people run for judge in  your local court system. This  tells me they havent learned to master themselves.  And they sure havent mastered  at least  one of the general ideas that make BDSM so popular and that is " to each his own"


All i see on these boards is critisizing of this person and that person. I read profiles  dozens of profiles like this." Doms please stop sending me emails im literally receiving hundreds a day and cannot keep up."  or profiles like this " Why is everyone here so bitter and rude" I see it in the forums : you ( not you personally aquatic)  sit back  like a predator stalking prey... waiting waiting and then you pounce. you start the judging and  rudeness and bitterness. because someone ask a bloody question  and says he has x amount of years experience. and to you( you in general) that seems like a noob question( which was taken the wrong way btw) . Your so eager to pounce on people on these boards you dont even read what people are asking you just twist it into something you can use against them.  and then comes the judgements and validations  and derailment of threads and taking such judgements to every bloody thread .


Its sad its really sad THIS is what BDSM has turned into. and no it wasnt like that before, not like this  you had a few idiots  that did stuff like this  but the majority of people that actually knew what it was to be Dom/sub or wanted to learn kept  them from taking over. yes i am ASHAMED of the BDSM community and this doesnt apply for everyone  cause im sure their are some really good people here.

It has been twisted and turned into something  where you are quick to judge , quick to insult, and quick to disrespect. congratulations, you( again not aquatic)  have succeeded at degrading the BDSM community into a pathetic battle of  one defending themselves against a horrorific force of judges, none of which are capable of judging anyone by mine or Gods standards.


Heres an idea:stop judging people, learn some respect, and grow up at least act your ages. I demand no ones respect however i did nothing do deserve the disrespect people  here have shown me. in light of that i came here respectful. my profile shows my interest and i think  in a respectable way. apparently CM agrees its acceptable as they published as is the first time around without me having to edit anything. i have respectabily posted my opinions from experience not from books or  what i  saw tom dick and mary do at some meeting.  they learned about it if im giving an opinion on it i experienced it and if im giving an opinion on it and havent experienced i will state that.

You guys want to  flame and pick on newcomers like 3rd graders go right ahead. and i will treat every single one of you just like 3rd graders that are misbehaving. so if you like to be treated like children then carry on with your flames and judgements and nitpicking profiles, and calling people out and making them defend themselves all the time. Ill go on treating you like 3rd graders.

And ill go on helping the newcomers as i was once helped by considerate Doms and subs.  no matter how stupid their question may be in someone else opinion. If you think you bother me with your flames judgements and childish behavior, you are sadly mistaken. the only part that bothers me is that i have to call you a member of my community.

If you dont like my long post dont read them. that is YOUR choice and I WILL NOT JUDGE YOU ON IT.
Flame on!

EDIT: in response to something i missed posted by aquatic. I never said, implied, or otherwise stated i am better than anyone.  to do so would give me a jesus complex and im sure i dont have  that. What i did say,imply or state is that some people on here act quite childish and do have jesus complex.  that would make me more mature and more realistic than them, but not better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavetrainer2007


Actually, i wasnt mounting a defense. I dont need to defend myself against pixels on a screen dear. To be perfectly honest, i find some of the people here amusing. You see here is how i see  things:

your a sub.. your not every sub. Im a Dom, Im not every Dom. your taste opinion,views and whatnots of whats right wrong or just plain not interesting enough to have a view on may be different ( and probably are ) than mine and the other 6-7 billion people  in the world.  Ive seen things in this lifestyle, Or was introduced to me by people in this lifestyle that would give vanilla people nightmares.Those paticular things , some interested me some didnt,  i didnt judge. I didnt judge their interest, taste, or views and try to validate them or otherwise just plain point out that they are wrong. I didnt do this because their is one thing i am certain of and that is im not God, theirfore it is not my place to judge.

Rover may be the nicest greatest guy on earth. Archer may be too. Celeste may be the greatest sub on earth. but it is none of their places nor yours to  judge me, my interest,  my views, my opinions or validate anything in my life.  This is were BDSM was lost and this was reborn. See when i got in BDSM i learned two things right off, 1) you NEVER judge another person. 2) You always show common respect for people that show it for you. I came to these boards minding my business and giving my opinion without offending anyone. I try to give advice not play the kiddy games some seem to like to play on here.I , unfortunately, get dragged into the kiddy games because some judge me by my profile. In fact  every new person on here is IMMEDIATELY JUDGED by their profile... if you read my profile you know about this much, ., about me, my views, opinions or personality  Im not here to defend what  i do, who i am, my opinions, my interest or my intentions. I care not what 99.9% of the people in the world think of me my ways or my personality.  If i did i would of been insane along time ago.

Im here  to give my point of view on  topics and to read others points of views on topics not play war on a  message board. my responses to  comments made about me, to me or in flame of me are  for my entertainment because their is nothing interesting to read/ post on at that moment.

( From this point on this isnt directed at aquatic)
Someone once told me and i will always remember this: "You will learn to master another person you first  must learn master yourself." these rants and judgements and  i need proof of purchase from people i met 10 seconds ago have no interest in any kind of relationship with me and vice versa  are just plain childish.. if you want to judge people run for judge in  your local court system. This  tells me they havent learned to master themselves.  And they sure havent mastered  at least  one of the general ideas that make BDSM so popular and that is " to each his own"


All i see on these boards is critisizing of this person and that person. I read profiles  dozens of profiles like this." Doms please stop sending me emails im literally receiving hundreds a day and cannot keep up."  or profiles like this " Why is everyone here so bitter and rude" I see it in the forums : you ( not you personally aquatic)  sit back  like a predator stalking prey... waiting waiting and then you pounce. you start the judging and  rudeness and bitterness. because someone ask a bloody question  and says he has x amount of years experience. and to you( you in general) that seems like a noob question( which was taken the wrong way btw) . Your so eager to pounce on people on these boards you dont even read what people are asking you just twist it into something you can use against them.  and then comes the judgements and validations  and derailment of threads and taking such judgements to every bloody thread .


Its sad its really sad THIS is what BDSM has turned into. and no it wasnt like that before, not like this  you had a few idiots  that did stuff like this  but the majority of people that actually knew what it was to be Dom/sub or wanted to learn kept  them from taking over. yes i am ASHAMED of the BDSM community and this doesnt apply for everyone  cause im sure their are some really good people here.

It has been twisted and turned into something  where you are quick to judge , quick to insult, and quick to disrespect. congratulations, you( again not aquatic)  have succeeded at degrading the BDSM community into a pathetic battle of  one defending themselves against a horrorific force of judges, none of which are capable of judging anyone by mine or Gods standards.


Heres an idea:stop judging people, learn some respect, and grow up at least act your ages. I demand no ones respect however i did nothing do deserve the disrespect people  here have shown me. in light of that i came here respectful. my profile shows my interest and i think  in a respectable way. apparently CM agrees its acceptable as they published as is the first time around without me having to edit anything. i have respectabily posted my opinions from experience not from books or  what i  saw tom dick and mary do at some meeting.  they learned about it if im giving an opinion on it i experienced it and if im giving an opinion on it and havent experienced i will state that.

You guys want to  flame and pick on newcomers like 3rd graders go right ahead. and i will treat every single one of you just like 3rd graders that are misbehaving. so if you like to be treated like children then carry on with your flames and judgements and nitpicking profiles, and calling people out and making them defend themselves all the time. Ill go on treating you like 3rd graders.

And ill go on helping the newcomers as i was once helped by considerate Doms and subs.  no matter how stupid their question may be in someone else opinion. If you think you bother me with your flames judgements and childish behavior, you are sadly mistaken. the only part that bothers me is that i have to call you a member of my community.

If you dont like my long post dont read them. that is YOUR choice and I WILL NOT JUDGE YOU ON IT.
Flame on!

EDIT: in response to something i missed posted by aquatic. I never said, implied, or otherwise stated i am better than anyone.  to do so would give me a jesus complex and im sure i dont have  that. What i did say,imply or state is that some people on here act quite childish and do have jesus complex.  that would make me more mature and more realistic than them, but not better.

Well, if you wouldn't be so childish about being corrected in rather polite manner (it could have been said nicer yes) then I really don't think we would be having a problem with you. Well, we would still be poking fun at the "Super Trainer" thing, but that's kinda to be expected here.

If you are going to open your mouth and give advice, expect to be corrected if you are wrong. If you think you are right, back yourself up with research and resources. If you aren't willing do that because you are too busy living the lifestyle, then perhaps you are too busy to be giving advice in the forums.

PS. I never said you thought you were better nor did I imply it. I was implying you were acting foolishly. :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavetrainer2007

...but it is none of their places nor yours to  judge me, my interest,  my views, my opinions or validate anything in my life.

quote:

1) you NEVER judge another person. 2) You always show common respect for people that show it for you