On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace

On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (Full Version)

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DominaSmartass -> On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 12:37:35 PM)
I know it's long, but hear me out, if you're interested. My boyfriend calls himself a masochist and he has the experience in some heavy and edgy play to back him up...at least to the point that he can endure a lot of pain, even if he doesn't like it. I consider myself a sadist and I do get a real charge out of hurting people (in the context of a scene) but what really gets me going is seeing the other person's reactions. That is, if I am flogging someone and he does not move, change the way he's breathing, make a noise, etc., it does absolutely nothing for me. I know many tops are the same way. My favorite people to play with are the ones who can really relax into the play and go deep into subspace to where the line between what feels orgasmic and what hurts like hell is really blurry. I've played with several wonderful examples of boys like this in the past, so maybe I'm spoiled. On the other hand, my boyfriend, the huge masochist, says he's never experienced sub space and doesn't ever feel the leaving of his physical body that so many people do. On the contrary, the person with whom he went from a novice to an experienced bottom/sub with told him that she does not believe in subspace because if she's putting so much work into hurting the bottom she wants them to be there with her, not on vacation, enjoying it. Thus she constantly keeps the sub guessing by doing new, annoying, painful, and intrusive things to him physically so that he will not be able to just fly away on endorphins. So through a combination of conditioning and his own nature, he has learned to endure extreme pain, yet never felt that blissful feeling that is what I enjoy most seeing in others when playing. This creates a conflict...a very frustrating situation for me. We finally had a big communication session about this and that's how I learned some of these details. So this is what I find out: He "enjoys" pain play because he wants to do what makes me happy. Me enjoying myself is the number one goal for him in a scene. So no matter how much he hates what I'm doing, he just endures it because the pleasure for him comes at the end knowing he's made me happy. This is all great, hypothetically, but the problem is that I don't even enjoy the scene in the slightest if I am going at it and he's completely still and noiseless - which he normally is - because he is focused on pain-processeing as he says. Granted, we haven't played all that much, we've spent the majority of our time together doing things other than elaborate, heavy scenes. And I've posted questions about my play issues in the past (see the "in the mood" thread.) Well, most recently, it seems that we are both in the mood but when it gets right down to it, the way we each have learned to play in the past don't exactly mesh. Again, I'm not asking for specific advice here as much as hoping to start a discussion. If you consider yourself a sadist or a masochist, what really gets you going? What aspect of it do you derive your pleasure from most? Does being in sub-space defeat the purpose of experiencing pain? As for us, my plan is to try to use playtime differently, to focus on true pain play less often and work on some sensual stuff that I already know puts him in something equivalent to subspace even if he doesn't call it that, to get him to relax about the whole thing. I think it's very much a conditioned response in him and once he realizes that he can experience subspace he might be able to achieve it through pain/impact play as well.

TheGaggingWh0re -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 2:55:10 PM)
quote: Again, I'm not asking for specific advice here as much as hoping to start a discussion. If you consider yourself a sadist or a masochist, what really gets you going? What aspect of it do you derive your pleasure from most? Does being in sub-space defeat the purpose of experiencing pain? As a masochist, I think that the feeling of powerlessness really gets me going, and that goes hand in hand with humiliation and pain. Judging from your post, I am beginning to believe that there are different kinds of sub-space, not just the "fly out of your body" sort, or at least we communicate about our subspaces so differently that they may seem different altogether. Personally, I've never flown out of my body or had my pain border on orgasmic. It's always been very, very painful for me, and like your sub, it's a love-hate relationship, but I choose to do it for a variety reasons, one being that it does please my owner, and I'm so intent on pleasing him because, in an ass backward sort of way, it pleases me too. I could define my subspace as being extremely focused. If anything, I feel more grounded and more 'real' than I've ever felt before. The pain intensifies, as does the pleasure when it's permitted, but throughout my subspace all I can think about is pleasing my Master. It's good to me, even if I'm doing it just for him and not myself, the reward is that I served the way he wants me to serve, and because we're an excellent pair, it's also the way I wish to serve. So...being in sub-space, through my personal definition, does not defeat the purpose of pain depending on what you wish to derive from it. My Master and I don't want me to have 'orgasmic' pleasure from the pain, just the pleasure that I'm in his hands. When punishments are dished out, there's no such thing as pleasure for me! All I feel is seering pain and the guilt of doing anything wrong, and the promise to myself that it won't happen again! These, of course, are true punishments, not the 'teehee I'm gonna punish you!' sort of...punishment, lol. I believe that there is more than just one sub-space, some focus more on the pain, while others can create a median between pain and pleasure and sit right in the middle, while others can focus on just the pleasureable aspects.

sisambergris -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 3:26:40 PM)
Again, I'm not asking for specific advice here as much as hoping to start a discussion. If you consider yourself a sadist or a masochist, what really gets you going? What aspect of it do you derive your pleasure from most? Does being in sub-space defeat the purpose of experiencing pain? (edited heavily for space) I have to admit that the powerlessness is the best part for me. My vanilla BF grabs my hair when we kiss or when we get more..errr..intimate..he calls my ponytail my handle. I have (believe it or not) experienced subspace with HIM twice. he was heavily being the one in control, we were exploring what biting was like (no skin breakage) and discovering that some of the stuff he actually LIKED to do, fed my masochism. I get extremely aroused with the right kind of pain..and control, I love experiencing pain WITH the flying...or without it. But the fact that the control is what sends me is new to me. I always thought it was an endorphin thing... BF is not a Dom, not a Master, but he DOES control by being controlling..which turns me on heavily....the other night was so bad I had to ask him for some extra .....err..attention after we were finished. I told him that blue balls was not just a male problem... luckily he was happy to have that affect on me and complied.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 5:36:22 PM)
Unless I go into a scene with a spiritual intent, I don't care too much if they're present or not as long as they're reacting in a way that I like. I prefer them to be focused on what I'm doing, not on what's going on around them. Mostly, I want to hear them. Sounds turn me on. Master Fire

catize -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 6:05:00 PM)
quote: Again, I'm not asking for specific advice here as much as hoping to start a discussion. If you consider yourself a sadist or a masochist, what really gets you going? What aspect of it do you derive your pleasure from most? Does being in sub-space defeat the purpose of experiencing pain? My first experience in sub-space was not a pain session, but what I referred to later as ‘sensuous torture’. He blindfolded me and had me lie on the bed. He did not bind or gag me, but forbid me to move or speak. He, too, was silent. He began by running a swatch of silk over my body, sliding and swirling it, concentrating here, then there, then someplace else. He varied the timing so I could not anticipate when or where it would touch me. It went on and on until I lost all track of time. I was very aroused, and then tremendously aroused, and then ready to explode! I wanted……….more. But he kept doing what he was doing at his own pace, his own whim. Finally, my brain just ‘let go’; I stopped wanting more and settled in to enjoy what was happening, letting myself feel the arousal without expectations. To this day I have no idea how long this went on, but I remember every delicious sensation filled moment. I took what I learned from that session and began applying it during pain-play. Sub-space does not usually stop me from feeling what is happening, but is more of a ‘cushion’ so that I can enjoy more intense pain for longer periods of time. The key, at least in my experience, is the relaxing into the sensation, not anticipating, but accepting.

subsa -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 6:07:52 PM)
i'm still struggling with the label masochist...i'm still new and haven't ever thought of myself that way. other people have used that term to describe me though. what other people experience as painful gives me great pleasure. i've always thought of a masochist as someone like your boy. you ask what 'gets me going'? all i can say is its the sensation itself. when the impact comes, its like electricty coursing through my body; its a huge rush! the blows seem to build upon themselves pushing my sensatations higher and higher. it is very much like a sexual orgasm. i wish you luck in your retraining of his perceptions. to GW... i'm trying to understand where you're coming from...its so different from my perspective. but please also understand that my 'punishments' though not physically painful are not a joke. it hurts me greatly, though on an emotional level, when my Master withdraws from me. my greatest punishment is to not to even be allowed to serve him, or to be in the same room. at those times my response is the same as yours... to never behave in the same manner ever again. those feelings i understand perfectly!

sjacket -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 6:32:59 PM)
I am a submissive masochist, and locally known as just a bit of a pain slut. Over the years I have found three different types of subspace- the first is purely thru heavy bondage (mummification, lots of rope, etc) and that takes me into a very meditative place. I become almost trance-like. The second is euphoric- flying, gigling, rapturous. The third is one I have just discovered in the last year and is a deeper, almost ferral state. While the joyous rush of the second often leaves me at the least weak-kneed, this third level is one of near paralysis. It leaves me unable to stand or talk for 5 to 15 or more minutes. I am able to sustain the pain that brought those endorphins out and relive it in wave after wave. Does this defeat the pain? Not at all. For me it is an enhancement of the experience. And it is at this moment I feel a deeper attachment to Mistress- I have given myself to her completely and trusted her to take me to an edge where we both find happiness. I am very vocal when we play and that is a big part of the experrince for her. She feeds off my sounds- when its a good moan and when it's a goood moan. And then there's that evil little laugh in my ear and I know it's going to be fun. The only "problem" is that I don't know which it's going to be. I can't pick one over the other, and I have not found any pattern of play (or toy) that triggers which it will be. But it's kind of like picking which of your kids you love best: you love them all.

DominaSmartass -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 8:17:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sjacket I am a submissive masochist, and locally known as just a bit of a pain slut. Over the years I have found three different types of subspace- the first is purely thru heavy bondage (mummification, lots of rope, etc) and that takes me into a very meditative place. I become almost trance-like. The second is euphoric- flying, gigling, rapturous. The third is one I have just discovered in the last year and is a deeper, almost ferral state. Interesting. The boy in question is a rope freak (and expert.) He's one of those people that can bend in unnatural ways and also great at learning ties. He can suspend himself if no one is around to tie him up. I am not a rope person - prefer binding with leather and hitting. So I do believe he experiences this rope subspace you mention. Another thing to add perhaps, maybe giving some insight is to say that when I asked him about his experience with me using my single-tail he said he didn't like it, it just plain hurt, and specifically he felt like fighting back against it, lashing out at it in return, I think he said. This interested me because he remained perfectly still during the whipping but told me this afterwards. It's like it either didn't occur to him to make physical reactions or he thought he wasn't supposed to. I told him that if he felt like fighting back against it I wanted to see that, since that's what actually makes the scene work for me. Any thoughts on this?

WhiplashSmile -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 8:37:22 PM)
DominaSmartass, I have been recently questioning myself about what I draw pleasure from. Here are a few core things which are consistent with me. I enjoy being in control of both giving pleasure and pain. I enjoy the reaction and response to my actions. I enjoy having the sub/slave provide me with pleasure, and even pain on occasion. BDSM has allowed me to explore both my Masochistic and Sadistic sides of my personality. When I was younger I was more of an angry person, BDSM was a means to explore this aspect sane and safely. I would consider myself now simplay a mascochist which understands another mashochists burning drive and need for pain. However, I am also a pleasure fiend! I am very sadistic in my delivery of pleasure, such as prolonging orgasms, teasing and making a sub/slave beg for me to stop ot start. I do the same thing with delivery of pain, I want to hear for the sub/slave to beg for it. In terms of being a pure Sadists or Masochists, I find it difficult, since it's become a bit of a blur. How can you truely be Sadistic to somebody who is begging for pain? Is not the Sadistic person, filling the need of the Masochist burning desire? So delivery of pain, becomes the same pleasure. Again, I enjoy being in control of the experience and the delivery of it. I enjoy my Dom role in controlling the sub/slave, and making them do things which please me. I myself would find no pleasure in giving somebody pain, if they did not respond. I find no pleasure in giving somebody who's not a masochist pain as well. I find myself getting off in giving a form of sadistic pleasure to those who enjoy pleasure. lol... I do not enjoy giving somebody pleasure which is still and motionless as well. I enjoy having somebody do things which please me and I find pleasure in... some maso subs/slaves can not bring themselves to even think about causing pain. I have to make them relate to how they enjoy it, inorder to cox them into doing something which they consider painful to me... I enjoy giving and recieving both... I suspect this dynamic is what made for an Intense Dom/Domme relationship I had in the past. Actually, I think I get off now on giving my form of sadistic pleasure! Yes, the prolonged orgasm and over stimulation of pleasure on the body now. You can actually send a sub off into sub-space using a pleasure overload as much as a pain over load... It leaves me smiling every time! I just love to hear the Smart Ass remarks from it in the process. Kind of like the joke about how to torture a Mascochist... lol... I don't know how many people will read this and be able to connect with what I am saying. It's taken awhile for me to reach this sort of level and mentality. I can fully understand you not finding pleasure in trying to give pain to a dead fish. This is why I have not looking for a doormat on my profile... I don't believe I fit well into some of the stereotype labels at times, I'm just a little off the beaten path no matter where I go.

catize -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 8:44:19 PM)
quote: I told him that if he felt like fighting back against it I wanted to see that, since that's what actually makes the scene work for me. Any thoughts on this? Several times, after a particularly intense and extended scene, master has ordered me to hit, pinch, bite him, and I even get to call him nasty names and swear at him! He has explained that he can see I need to discharge some excessive energy and let out some pent up emotions. I would never ever do this on my own, and the first time he gave me such an order I looked at him funny and was pretty tentative. He goaded me with ‘You can do better than that!’ so I let it rip and wow, did it feel good! Of course, the fact that he was laughing the whole time made it feel safe and okay. One thing to consider is that he is much bigger and stronger than I am and I certainly ‘hit like a girl’ so he is in no danger of physical harm from me. But the name calling is fun, and about an hour later he would tease me by saying "Did you really call your master a #%^&*!!!?" I blushed bright red.

domiguy -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 8:54:26 PM)
Again we blur the lines of thinking by making all questions unique to this thang.....What would Domiguy do if he was fucking some "hottie" and she just layed there! (I have to laugh whilst typing cause there aint no way some sub is just gonna lie there when taking 13 inches of pink steel, angry DomiDong) So I say to her, "What the fuck is wrong with you?..I could get a bigger response from Anna Nicole Smith!" So she tells me she really never liked getting nailed in the front or the back but she knows how I enjoy tappin' it and she just lays there till I have her drink my Domidew.....I wouldn't stand for this shit! I'd throw her ass out of bed! And as soon as she got done mowing my lawn..I'd kick that bitch to the curb... What is so fucking tough about figuring out what to do?...When what you seek is not being provided...Either change it, accept it and then don't complain or move on....Simple. I personally wouldn't know what to do if the above situation were to arise....I'd probably just figure my manhood had smashed into her heart and she had died....So sad! Chi Dom seeking sub with titanium clad armored heart....

DominaSmartass -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 9:00:19 PM)
quote: This is why I have not looking for a doormat on my profile... I was right there with you up till this part. I have no clue how this fits in. My boy reacts differently than I would prefer to a beating but he is by no means a doormat. I'm so tired of this doormat line being pulled out like a little black dress that fits every occasion. Anyone care to explain it to me if I've missed something?

WhiplashSmile -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 9:48:01 PM)
Sorry, I did not mean to imply he was a doormat... just that I have found some cold fish which were doormats... and I had to do what Domiguy was speaking about... kick them to the curb... because they were too dull and boring to deal with... I enjoy it also when a sub has an artistic interest/abilities and something else to offer besides body alone....

DominaSmartass -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 9:59:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy .What would Domiguy do if he was fucking some "hottie" and she just layed there! (I have to laugh whilst typing cause there aint no way some sub is just gonna lie there when taking 13 inches of pink steel, angry DomiDong) So I say to her, "What the fuck is wrong with you?..I could get a bigger response from Anna Nicole Smith!" So she tells me she really never liked getting nailed in the front or the back but she knows how I enjoy tappin' it and she just lays there till I have her drink my Domidew.....I wouldn't stand for this shit! I'd throw her ass out of bed! And as soon as she got done mowing my lawn..I'd kick that bitch to the curb... I see it as just a tad different. If someone were not enjoying sex there might be an issue but just because he doesn't respond to pain the way I'd prefer? I don't think that merits kicking someone's ass to the curb. quote: What is so fucking tough about figuring out what to do?...When what you seek is not being provided...Either change it, accept it and then don't complain or move on....Simple. I didn't realize I was complaining. And I am not throwing him out because our play styles aren't exactly the same. But I'm so glad to see that you believe in disposing of perfectly good partners for ridiculous reasons. Am I the only one on earth who doesn't have the "Oh, something isn't exactly the way I want it so goodbye" mentality?

juliaoceania -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 10:54:22 PM)
quote: If you consider yourself a sadist or a masochist, what really gets you going? What aspect of it do you derive your pleasure from most? Does being in sub-space defeat the purpose of experiencing pain? I enjoy pain on a few levels. I know that if he gives me enough I will have some level of "sub space", or an endorphin response. This tends to make me giddy, but can make me floaty too. I enjoy this. I enjoy the connection of scening with my Daddy, his intense focus on me, I can feel that. I enjoy the verbal interaction, the anticipation, of not knowing what he will do next... and these things feed each other. I do not think that being able to endure huge amounts of pain makes one a masochist. I am sure I could be worked up to being able to take a huge amount of pain, but that is not what my Daddy favors. Like you he wants to feed on my reactions to what he does. He loves to put me into giggle giddy headspace. It is not the amount of pain that one takes, it is the enjoyment of pain at all. Pain in and of itself if applied correctly can arouse me intensely, it makes me wet. That is what makes me a masochist... not the amount of pain I can endure. To be honest, your boyfriend does not sound like a masochist to me. Simply, subspace (endorphin high) is the reason I want to experience pain..smiles. I would suggest waiting until he is aroused by other activities and then applying pain unexpectedly.. such as when he is physically aroused biting him, or slapping him, or pinching his nipples, so that he begins to associate pleasure and pain.. perhaps that was your thought already.

xxxWENCHxxx -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 11:33:12 PM)
pain for me is multi-faceted ..... while enduring the pain it is intense, so intense i have no idea how i'm going to get thru it, yet i notice i am not fighting it either ..... i wait and wait and wait and wait some more .... the more my Master grips and inflicts pain the more i catch myself holding my breath waiting for Him to release me ... waiting still .... waiting .... just when i give up waiting and surrender to the intensity my Master knows when i do, it is then that He releases me and the pain is now sweeter than when He originally grabbed me ..... the sweet pain of my body returning to normal is where i find sub space .... and each time He does this whether it be His whore's ass, tits or pussy He's torturing (or delivering pain to) i do not want Him to stop .... i enjoy being His "canvas" ..... the sadist in Him enjoys painting His canvas black and blue ..... His pain slut slave is in different type of sub space just from the joy of being the one her Master is extracting what He needs, desires and wants from her .... she gladly does this for Him out of love, loyalty and obedience .... it helps when the chemistry between Master and slave works .... then the sadist and the masochist thrive .... for me (the masochist) there is one more ultimate pleasure i derive from such treatment ..... when i go about my nilla life and i am around my nilla friends, family or just in public somewhere .... and i know what bruises, welts, soreness lie beneath my clothes and i know how they got there .... how can i NOT think of my Master .... He is with me always in all ways at this rate ... then as the body heals from these marks i find i need more pain to feel alive again .... how strange that sounded to me when i first realized that .... " i need the pain to feel alive " .... it's not about a climax, sex, sub space, etc ..... now it's about pain .... and the need for so much more .... how do Y/you think my Master feels when i ask Him for more ???? what honor and joy to be His slave and bring Him so much pleasure .... yeah, i'll submit everytime ... please Master, more [:)]

AZSweetie -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 11:41:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Simply, subspace (endorphin high) is the reason I want to experience pain..smiles. DITTO... ::: DROOLS ::: [8D]

WhiplashSmile -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/26/2007 11:46:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AZSweetie quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Simply, subspace (endorphin high) is the reason I want to experience pain..smiles. DITTO... ::: DROOLS ::: [8D] Truely leaves you feeling more alive!!

domiguy -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/27/2007 7:22:21 AM)
quote: DominaSmartass I didn't realize I was complaining. And I am not throwing him out because our play styles aren't exactly the same. But I'm so glad to see that you believe in disposing of perfectly good partners for ridiculous reasons. Am I the only one on earth who doesn't have the "Oh, something isn't exactly the way I want it so goodbye" mentality? (Domiguy gets on GoogleEarth ....Thoroughly scans the planet) Yep. You are the only one. As Bruce said in "The Tunnel of Love." "It ought to be easy ought to be simple enough man meets a woman and they fall in love. But this house is huanted and the ride gets rough you got to learn to live with what you can't rise above. And if you're not getting what you wanted Don't say a word throw the bitch out of bed and kick her ass to the curb. As we ride down baby into this tunnel of love." I didn't say that you were complaining....But ya got three choices change (you or your partner), accept, or move on. Great post. I think it is exhillarating reading all of the responses...Keep up the good work...God bless America.

sadomasokisti -> RE: On the Merits of Masochism and Experiencing Subspace (2/27/2007 9:47:10 AM)
As switch sadist/ masochist I know a little about both sides of the equation. When I'm domming a masochist, I want responses. In my view, if the sub thinks I'm hurting her I get the same kick as if I'm really hurting her. Sometimes even better kick because I'm messing with her mind. But I need responses either way because they give me the opportunity to interact with the sub, to get her higher. The higher I get the sub, the more she will endure. When I'm subbing, I get of the interaction with the Dom. GL usually makes me able to endure much more in the end than would be possible in the beginning. Knowing what makes her smile makes it also much easier for me to take what she disses out.

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