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Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 1:08:43 AM

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i have chosen to put this in the bdsm discussion group since it applies to two well dug in and diametric belief systems as i understand it.

On one side of the table you have the female supremacists who feel they ultimately rule supreme and on the other side of the table you have the goreans who's premise is the natural order, where in gor the male or at least some males consider themselves for all intents and purposes supreme.

My personal feelings are that neither gender is supreme but i would very much love to learn more about this so i hope females who believe their gender should rule and males who believe their gender should rule get together in this thread to shed some light as to why they believe they are the one who should rule or be the dominant figure.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/21/2006 1:10:48 AM >

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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 4:49:03 AM

MysticalPhoenix

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RO has set up the steel cage for the death match...

*settles back to watch the carnage* this looks to be far more entertaining than beating dead horses to a pulp.

Popcorn anyone?

Phoenix

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 4:59:36 AM

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Yes he has Miss Phoenix

Since I am in no way supreme

, I am going to join you for popcorn if I may?

/plops down on the floor to watch the fireworks.

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 5:15:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MysticalPhoenix

RO has set up the steel cage for the death match...

*settles back to watch the carnage* this looks to be far more entertaining than beating dead horses to a pulp.

Popcorn anyone?

Phoenix

Beating a dead horse to a pulp is correct. I say who cares? Neither sex is superior one cannot survive without the other so lets just all get along.

(in reply to MysticalPhoenix)

RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 5:24:22 AM

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I obviously have a bias in this area but I won't be drawn into a long slug fest. I do respect the right for those who don't subscribe to the Gorean Lifestyle to hold their opinions. I just ask that they dont try to convert me or thrust their doctrines down my throat..... In effect they live their reality and I live mine. Terra is large enough for both and even allowing some overlap in neutral areas.

It's all in the game and how you play it!

< Message edited by IronBear -- 2/21/2006 5:25:03 AM >

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 5:57:21 AM

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I applaud you RO for a great question--I'm sure when some awake there will be heated debate--after all it has been asked for--let the games begin--but I am going to give you My NSH $.02:

I do not believe human supremacy is gender specific---I believe in Domination and submission--at any given moment that can take any gender, religious, political, and ethnic design. It is the Ying to the Yang, whether the Yang goes willingly or not--

Note that I said "human supremacy"--for I believe that the earth and the forces of nature hold the uberultimate power--power over the chest beaters, power over the Iraqies, power over all--yes we play the game of life--Men over women, women over men, Muslim over Americans, Germans over Jews----but in the end, no gender, no religion, no political leaning can overcome Mother Nature when she unleashes her fury.

Play the game as we will, we are not supreme--we are visitors--

Now in the context of D/s or BDSM--IMNSHO--there is Dominance and submission--and at any given moment one of those is supreme over the other---now this will stir controversy...<smiles> it is the dynamic of the Ying and the Yang--

(goes and sits down with Irish and Mystical, misses veronica and waits...)

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 6:33:53 AM

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I liked M.H.'s answer very much!
I tend to agree, but will throw out my interpretation as well.
Supremecy is only in the courts, because of the beauracracy that is forced upon us.
Hitler was a supremist, with the misunderstanding that he could elliminate the inferior races. How do we view him, other than despicable?
KKK members are white supremist, who also think of themselves as the superior race. Again, despicable!
I personally see no supreme being walking amongst us, or on these boards. What I do see is a lifestyle and role playing in which the Top in the relationship weilds the control and the bottom relinquishes control in place of trust and comfort at the bottom.

Please pass the popcorn and I truly hope the fur doesn't begin to fly!
Good post Realone!

< Message edited by fastlane -- 2/21/2006 6:34:55 AM >

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 7:15:19 AM

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beth and I recently had a discussion on this topic. I feel the problem is traditional roles of authority are gender assigned. In other words once gender is determined social, occupational, roles are assumed. Sure, there is the facade of change. Public schools have pretty much eliminated all macho male developmental activities. Females now represent the majority of college students, as well as law and medical school students. But you can't social engineer power. Ultimately power, assertiveness, dominance are factors determined by nurture or perhaps predetermined by nature. I don't believe that this is gender specific.

People have difficulties when they are forced to "act" in a role that is not "natural" for them. Back in the day, it was common to see male business movers and shakers come into a club for a session of humiliation and submission. Their female counterparts would do the same. The needed the "release". They may have had the skill set necessary for their position of power, but they didn't have the mental or emotional ability to carry it out all the time, without this "release". I used to refer to it as "catching up on their submissive nature". The same situation applies to the other side of the flogger, with people, inherently dominant, forced into submissive roles at work or in life. The BDSM lifestyle becomes an outlet.

Ideally, people would first consider their natural dominance or submissiveness before gender. Emotional and mental conflicts would be minimized. It's my belief that the gender is not a predetermination of "superiority" or dominance. Life would be easier if individuals made the decisions and not social engineers.

Did I take your question too seriously?

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 7:16:37 AM

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In MY household the male reignes supreme. He is a benevolent ruler who knows what he wants and feels that women should understand their place in his domain. To me, nothing else matters and what others do is perfectly acceptable as long as they don't try to convert me. 'Nuff said.

< Message edited by OscarHargraves -- 2/21/2006 7:17:33 AM >

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 1:58:32 PM

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I'll be alright as long as everyone recognizes that I'm the supreme ruler of the universe, or at least some respectable new kind of evil overlord. Huh, that's odd. Is anyone else hearing the Star Wars empire theme playing softly?

Seriously, though, no one is supreme, regardless of what gender markings they possess. The only way supremacy and power are attained is if they are freely given such power, inherit it, work for it, or steal it. Either way, it doesn't come cheap and it shouldn't come easily. No one should consider themselves supreme simply because they decided to grace the earth with the presence of their particular set of genitalia.

However one rules his/her own household is fine and dandy by me; they were freely given that power. It's when someone expects those who haven't freely given their submission to a person's supremacy to give it anyway that I get a little pissy. That attitude in your own domain is fine, but if you attempt to enforce it in a nonconsensual manner you'll probably get clawed to death (and I think you'll deserve it). Yes, the genders balance each other; No, one is not better or worse than the other; No, one shouldn't be considered supreme (it is just genitalia and breeding, after all); and lastly YES if anyone tells me they're better than me because they have a penis I will laugh at them.

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"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 3:47:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

I'll be alright as long as everyone recognizes that I'm the supreme ruler of the universe, or at least some respectable new kind of evil overlord. Huh, that's odd. Is anyone else hearing the Star Wars empire theme playing softly?

Seriously, though, no one is supreme, regardless of what gender markings they possess. The only way supremacy and power are attained is if they are freely given such power, inherit it, work for it, or steal it. Either way, it doesn't come cheap and it shouldn't come easily. No one should consider themselves supreme simply because they decided to grace the earth with the presence of their particular set of genitalia.

However one rules his/her own household is fine and dandy by me; they were freely given that power. It's when someone expects those who haven't freely given their submission to a person's supremacy to give it anyway that I get a little pissy. That attitude in your own domain is fine, but if you attempt to enforce it in a nonconsensual manner you'll probably get clawed to death (and I think you'll deserve it). Yes, the genders balance each other; No, one is not better or worse than the other; No, one shouldn't be considered supreme (it is just genitalia and breeding, after all); and lastly YES if anyone tells me they're better than me because they have a penis I will laugh at them.

as a slave, of course the Master reigns supreme
however, submission is a gift in which the slave receives empowerment by giving
therefore, i think that both are equal in a way

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 3:57:18 PM

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Ok, I am going to take a shot at this

First, let me ask this........are you looking at this only from a Gorean PoV RO? Or are you lumping all of us together into one pool? ANd no, that was not sarcastic, it was a genuine question.

The reason I ask is because, if I understand Gorean 'policy' enough ( and I am sure that If I am way off base here, Master IronBear and the others will be quick to let me know

)...if I am to understand Gorean policy, it is that the MALE is the supreme being. Period. No if's and's or but's about it.

But outside of the Gorean lifestyle, supremecy is not ruled by gender.

You question is just a bit confusing as to which lifestyle you are actually asking this of?

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 6:32:43 PM

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quote:

Beating a dead horse to a pulp is correct. I say who cares? Neither sex is superior one cannot survive without the other so lets just all get along.

Ah ha! An attempt to inject intelligence into the debate!

Forget the 'supremecy' bullshit, because that's all it is. There was little more sickening than old guard feminists going on about their 'moral supremecy' and the backlash reactionists yapping about their own 'religious and righteous superiority'. I hope we're past that now.

I've noted before that dommes (F) are often fundamentally different from male doms. Often they seem (to me, as an outsider) more humane, more motherly, more willing to be vulnerable. Their great strength appears to be that womanly way of absorbing male faults and lacks. I do not understand submissive males, so I can only observe and attempt to assess.

I grew up around strong women and I admire brains, tenacity, and success. It's that I seek a challenge (although I've been good at melting ice queens), but rather that I want someone with a mind, aspirations, and code that matches my own. I'm fascinated that at least some dommes-F may seek to control some males and females, but succumb to a strong, honorable male, though not necessarily one who forces them to submit. (I may be flattering myself unnecessarily.)

A male needs strength, not necessarily of muscles, but of character, of leadership, of morality, and of love. In that way he can 'earn' a woman, and not merely force or insist upon the submission of one.

(in reply to Lashra)

RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 6:37:34 PM

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quote:

I've noted before that dommes (F) are often fundamentally different from male doms. Often they seem (to me, as an outsider) more humane, more motherly, more willing to be vulnerable

Now that is odd Petruchio, because I find male's to be more humane. But then, I have ever tried to do a 'real' comparison either.

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 7:06:11 PM

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quote:

Now that is odd Petruchio, because I find male's to be more humane. But then, I have ever tried to do a 'real' comparison either.

And you may be right, for I seldom pay real attention to men.

Besides, I love it that your viewpiont is different from mine.

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 7:55:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Now that is odd Petruchio, because I find male's to be more humane. But then, I have ever tried to do a 'real' comparison either.

I think a lot of the humanity and compassion a person acts with is directly proportional to their maturity (self-representation, not age) level rather than their specific gender. When a woman is immature she can be the the most vicious of creatures, and I would venture to say that the same is true of men. However, when grown to maturity (it never happens for some, it happens very early for others) both genders have the capacity to nurture, love, and promote growth in their own ways.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 8:04:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Ok, I am going to take a shot at this

First, let me ask this........are you looking at this only from a Gorean PoV RO? Or are you lumping all of us together into one pool? ANd no, that was not sarcastic, it was a genuine question.

The reason I ask is because, if I understand Gorean 'policy' enough ( and I am sure that If I am way off base here, Master IronBear and the others will be quick to let me know )...if I am to understand Gorean policy, it is that the MALE is the supreme being. Period. No if's and's or but's about it.

But outside of the Gorean lifestyle, supremecy is not ruled by gender.

You question is just a bit confusing as to which lifestyle you are actually asking this of?

Right on the nail <<<Hands IrishMist a Horn filled with home made Meade>>>

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 9:35:04 PM

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~shoves a satin pillow under IM's ass and then pokes her and runs off~

candystripper

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RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/21/2006 10:17:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
First, let me ask this........are you looking at this only from a Gorean PoV RO? Or are you lumping all of us together into one pool? ANd no, that was not sarcastic, it was a genuine question.

i am really making two distinctions based on one observation.
we have in all walks of life men who feel they are or should be the rightful rulers and on the other side of the table women who feel they are or should be the rightful rulers.

This is directed primarily toward those who hold those believes to have an opportunity to express why they feel they way do on the subject as well as anyone else who wishes to chime in and join the fun.

have read some excellent posts so far and there are lots of female subs who believe in male supremacy and male subs who believe in fem supremacy too that may be able to help shed more light on this too! The question is why?

So to answer your question this is primarily directed to anyone who believes in supremacy regardless of personal disposition. and secondly to those who wish to speak to it and tell those of us who do not know why and how they arrived at their convictions.

i have never had the opportunity to dig into this with anyone and know literally nothing about why females believe they are supreme any more than i know about why males believe they are supreme so this could be very educational for all of us that are in the same boat as i am on the subject if we can kick off a good debate on it that includes reasons for being such.

Never know maybe we might get lucky and have both gor and fem supremist philosophers happen past this post and actually have a real philisophical debate between them so we can get a good fundamental understanding of how and why they believe the way they do!

i grew up in a genderless house when it came to power etc and who ever knew the most about something or was best suited for any task was the chosen one regardless of gender so i am quite ignorant to supremist view points on either side of the table.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Supreme-E-est of Supreme - 2/22/2006 7:28:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

~shoves a satin pillow under IM's ass and then pokes her and runs off~

candystripper

HEY

WTF am I??!!!

A pin cushion?

geesh

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to candystripper)

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