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BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 3:28:56 PM   
PrincessWordSex


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I know this could be quite a contraversial topic with people having a great range of veiws on this. I'm struggling with this at the moment and would love to hear other peoples ideas.
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 3:55:18 PM   
sub4hire


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There are many christian BDSM groups out there. Do a search on google...you'll find hundreds.

(in reply to PrincessWordSex)
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 3:58:22 PM   
subcheryl


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It depends on what exactly you are struggling with, anything in particular? In general for me, bdsm somewhat compliments my religious beleifs, yes there are areas that are in conflict, such as living with my Master outside of marriage, but I beleive that is between God and myself, I am a sub/slave to my Master, it is in away the same as the proverbs 31 women, I just dont see a problem I guess with my religious beleifs and my practicing bdsm, and if others judge me, I guess that is their problem. The bible tells us not to judge less we be judged. I have always pretty much lived my life that I know the truth of the situation, if others want to make a bigger deal out of it then let them, the truth of the situation will come out in the long run and they will be the ones holding the bag so to say. Don't know if this helped any, since not really sure what you are asking.

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 4:46:58 PM   
siamsa24


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I would also like more clarification on what exactly you are struggling with. I am a Catholic and I also practice BDSM. Do they go hand in hand? No. Do I have that famous Catholic guilt? YES, every day. But I make my own choices in what I do, if I feel guilt it is because I brought it upon myself.
This may not be the way that everyone feels and I am not saying that anyone else should feel this way, but that is just the way I fell about things.
If you are a bit more specific I may be able to help you.

(in reply to PrincessWordSex)
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 5:34:55 PM   
PrincessWordSex


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I'm a christian. But I don't feel that my BDSM lifestyle fits with my beliefs. Its like i'm trying to juggle 2 totally different and conflicting value systems. I want to find a way that they do fit together? Does that make sense?

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 5:35:50 PM   
RiotGirl


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Great topic.

i also believe they go hand in hand.

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 5:37:56 PM   
siamsa24


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I understand what you are saying in a general sense, but what is it that you have issues with? Is it because of the sex that generally goes along with it? Are you married and having moral conflicts because of that?
You don't have a profile up so I don't know if you are submissive or what, are there problems with that?
I know that being bisexual is almost forbidden in my area of religion, I sometimes struggle with that.....
If it's too personal I will be happy to exchange emails on the other side.

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 6:17:13 PM   
PrincessWordSex


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In many ways I haven't pinned the exact problems down in my own mind.

I'm a submissive who was in a D/s relationship many years ago, it was also a highly abusive relationship. It ended with him trying to kill me. Since then I kind of shut down and ignored that need, i've been in other relationships since then and they have all ended with me feeling that my needs are just not being met at all.

Last year that side of me re-awoke and I found myself in another D/s relationship. He knows my past and is content taking baby steps with me.

I'm a committed christian and in my mind the two different value systems don't fit. The sex that I enjoy, the power exchange, the kinkiness, even masterbation....is considered 'wrong'.

I hope that explains it more?

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 6:29:08 PM   
MrKite


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Religion provides many different things to many different people but no matter which book you go by, (Torah, Bible, Koran) for every line that says something is so, there is another that will say it isn’t so. We pick and chose those passages that have meaning to us and tend to disregard the rest. This is best exemplified by the fact the today we don’t sell are daughters into slavery as prescribed by Deuteronomy (the book of laws handed down to Moses by god). We use the scriptures to build the foundations of life long belief systems and with that foundation we define our values and moral imperatives.

How do reconcile our religious beliefs with BDSM? Good question and difficult answer. The primary lesson in Christian-Judaic religions is that of the golden rule. In all its variants it translates to, love others as you love yourself. Most of us would agree that even though it’s a different type of loving, it’s just as good if not better.

Here, and places like this we find the love and support of community, Here, we hopefully meet a mate that we cherish, and please and love. In this place we find safety, comfort and security. Here we find tolerance, openness. When you think about, logging into this web site and many others like or going to a “munch” is much like going to church.

On a personal note: I was raised catholic and later in life adopted Judaism and my choice and source for spiritual fulfillment. I recall from my younger days the nuns teaching us that sex was only for procreation and must be avoided for any other reason. Conversely in Judaism, sex is considered a blessing (Mitzvah). I personally do not believe in sin, only good and bad human acts. What I do with my slave are acts of good in that it pleases her, and brings happiness and love into our relationship.

No doubt that in time you will come to reconcile what you see as internal conflicts. Beginning that journey is the best step.


< Message edited by MrKite -- 5/11/2005 6:30:19 PM >


_____________________________

If it feels good, do it.

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 6:42:58 PM   
MrKite


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I understand the belief that you say the sex, kinkiness and masturbation is considered wrong. I was taught that too. Perhaps it would help if I challenge you to quote the chapter and verse where Jesus himself says its wrong. I know that human religious leaders have told us those things, but I consider that opinion only.



_____________________________

If it feels good, do it.

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 7:04:29 PM   
junecleaver


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I wrote an essay on this once. I have no idea where it is. Christianity and BDSM can co-exist peacefully. I think of God as the big Dominant in the sky and I serve him in many of the same ways I would my earthly Dominant.

(in reply to MrKite)
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 7:18:57 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Incase you don't know I'm Catholic and I've always enjoyed reading documented exercisims and inquisition torture. Let's not forget how ofter you read the word PUNISH and CURSE in the bible. For one who is masachisic would that make HELL there Heaven? Let's not forget one of the bibles most famous quotes "Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child"

The only issuses that Judeo/Christianity beliefs have with S&M are: anal, roles of the Male and Female, homosexuality, and poly.

So take this info into consideration.



_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 7:54:10 PM   
Raphael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite

I understand the belief that you say the sex, kinkiness and masturbation is considered wrong. I was taught that too. Perhaps it would help if I challenge you to quote the chapter and verse where Jesus himself says its wrong. I know that human religious leaders have told us those things, but I consider that opinion only.


The supposed prohibition of masturbation is the story of Onan. Read it sometime. It's in Genesis, about 35 chapters or so in.

His sin involved masturbation only in a rather non-central role. His sin was greed, trying to obey the letter of the law while circumventing the spirit, trying to take the things that belonged to his dead brother while shirking his duty to the same. Only in the fevered minds of theologians that had already decided masturbation was wrong, and the Bible must say so somewhere, did masturbation itself become an issue.

I can't think of a place in the bible where kinky sex per se is condemned, and I'm fairly well acquainted with the book. Of course, various groups of degenerates that are condemned seem to have been practicing kinky sex, but they did plenty of other things to earn the condemnation. The old testament is really not sex-negative at all. Of course, it's not exactly friendly to homosexuals or sub-males, but I can't think of anything it says that indicates a problem with maledom/femsub married couples, or even polygamous households.

In the new testament, there are some sex-negative portions, pretty much confined to the writings of Paul, who was an odd case in many respects. But even Paul doesn't, insofar as I recall, prescribe what sex acts married couples may and may not engage in, and he is loud and clear in favor of women submitting to their husbands.

Of course the situation can change either way if you look at the dogma and traditions of a particular Christian tradition.

Now, with that out of the way, it doesn't sound to me like the original poster is married. From a strict biblical standpoint, that's right out. But it has nothing to do with BDSM - it's fornication.

So I guess I have a few questions for PrincessWordSex:

If you think there is a conflict between your religion and enjoying sex, kinkiness, and masturbation, on what basis do you see that? Do you have some verses in mind, or do the problems rather arise out of a particular tradition or denomination you hold to? If the latter, which one are we talking about?

If it's just a vague feeling that you haven't thought through fully, do you think it's possible that what really lays underneath it is the fornication, not the kinkiness, masturbation, or the fact that you're enjoying sex?

~Edited because I hit enter at the wrong time while in the process of writing.


< Message edited by Raphael -- 5/11/2005 8:56:04 PM >

(in reply to MrKite)
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 8:58:45 PM   
SirKenin


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This is a topic I can relate to for sure. However, the way you have it constructed, you have opened the floor to a multi-faceted approach with all kinds of angles to choose from. I am not even sure where to start. I will take My best shot at it.

First, masturbation. The extremist right-wing fundamentalists would have you believe that masturbation is a sin. In fact, this is not the case. They quote the text of Onan and spilling his seed on the ground in the Old Testament as pointing towards the fact that masturbation is wrong. However, this text has nothing to do with masturbation whatsoever. It is in fact telling U/us the story of a man who was commanded by God to give his brother's wife a child so that their lineage would be preserved, and he refused. He was thus condemned for his actions. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention the act of masturbation. The only issue addressed is lust, considered a sin and the same as adultery if you look at the opposite sex with desire. If you can masturbate without doing this then masturbation is fine.

Sex. The Greek word for sex before marriage is pornea. It is literally translated as fornication. W/we are instructed not to have sex before marriage. That is to be saved for consumating a union, procreation and bringing a couple together in celebration of their union and love for each other. Sex can be enjoyed at any time after marriage and is not limited in any form to procreation. In fact the Bible speaks of it in high regards as something to be cherished between a husband and wife.

Living together. The Bible does not ever tell U/us that a marriage ceremony is mandated before cohabitating. However it does tell U/us to respect the Law of the land. In all but 13 US States and Canada it is forbidden to cohabitate as common-law husband and wife. Outside of that, to be married all Y/you have to do is to make a covenant (not a contract) between God, Y/your partner and Y/yourself, leave Y/your father and mother and become one flesh (consumating Y/your union through sex). No stupid paperwork or other fanfare is necessary.

Submission/Domination. This is where it becomes tricky. In Ephesians W/we are commanded to submit to one each other out of reverence to Christ. The husband and wife relationship is likened to the relationship between Christ and the church. The wife is to submit (hupotasso: to subject one's self, to obey) to the husband as the church submits to Christ because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. Husband's responsibilities are likened to Christ's headship over the church. Husbands are to love their wives. To lead by example. W/we are to exercise a purposeful affection, earnestly and willfully seek out the well-being of O/our wives, even if it means the ultimate cost to Y/you.

The love of a husband is defined as sacrificial, selfless, unconditional, tender, close and nurturing. Men look at these verses and perk up when it says that the wives are to submit, yet there is so much more burden placed on the husband. The husband will answer to God about how he treated his wife and his family. With his position he is given great responsibility for the well-being of the wife and the family. He is not to abuse it or he will answer to God Himself.

This sets the stage for a whole different type of domination than what many people are familiar with, but it is the type of domination I use. I love My sub as I would love Myself (this is the rule given supreme importance in the New Testament). What is love? A love is the desire to place Y/your friend first, even if it means "laying down Y/your life" for him/her. Laying down your life includes giving up that which Y/you want for their betterment. I demonstrate by My actions what I expect from My sub. Not only do I tell her how to please Me, I also try to show her how to please. I love her and honour her. In return she desires to please Me. You can boss them around for so long, but eventually they will give up and walk away if you have not done your part.

Homosexuality. Homosexuality/lesbianism/bi-sexuality is a tough one in a sense. In one sense, the Bible forbids these in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy. It is stated that they will not see the Kingdom of Heaven. It is Paul's direct response to the Roman emperors of the day being morally corrupted, with the greatest percentage of them being homosexual. Even Nero had a boy castrated to be his wife, after which he got rid of him and married another man. Paul, in his outrage, condemned the practice. However, I do not think this applies to people in general, rather the active practice of it. Being a celibate homosexual or what not is not being sinful. God does not create mistakes and I do not believe there is any evidence that being homosexual is something you learn.

Deuteronomic Law and Christianity. Many right-wing fundamentalists try to apply the Old Testament to their extremist beliefs as justification for cramming people into a small, wooden box of rules. Equally, non-Christians try and use them as an excuse to slam Christians for their beliefs, saying "Yeah, well Deuteronomy says this" or "Leviticus says this". Paul tells U/us explicitly in the New Testament that Deuteronomic Law no longer applies to Christians as a result of Christ's death and resurrection. W/we are told that W/we are now under grace, although W/we are not to test God's grace by continually sinning and asking forgiveness for the same sins over and over again. Therefore, all arguments against Christians using the Old Testament are now voided. The Deuteronomic Law was given as a way for Jews to set their paths straight and to show them that without God there was no hope of entering Heaven. Jesus' death and resurrection gave them a new hope and a new path to follow.

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to junecleaver)
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/11/2005 9:12:52 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Incase you don't know I'm Catholic and I've always enjoyed reading documented exercisims and inquisition torture. Let's not forget how ofter you read the word PUNISH and CURSE in the bible. For one who is masachisic would that make HELL there Heaven? Let's not forget one of the bibles most famous quotes "Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child"

The only issuses that Judeo/Christianity beliefs have with S&M are: anal, roles of the Male and Female, homosexuality, and poly.

So take this info into consideration.




The "rod" is a metaphor, not an actual instrument. The meaning of the verse is that if Y/you withhold correction (rod, or shebet in Hebrew), you act as if you hate him.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/12/2005 2:17:05 AM   
darkinshadows


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Greetings Princess.

I am a practising, commited Christian. There are many Christian BDSM - Ds groups around. You do not have to deny your faith because of BDSM. In fact, the practise of Ds is probably as near to a commited relationship as you can get within a christian context.

I am unsure where you have gained the 'knowledge' that sex, masturbation, and kink are considered 'wrong' - but truely, from one christian to another - they are not.

I could pick through biblical texts here - but that would take up so much bandwidth! And also, it 'feels' as though you already have some text in your head that you are referring to, so maybe it would be better to discuss specifics, rather than just pick and choose as I would. After all its about you.

Without knowing your specific history (ie - your denomination, upbringing, bibles read, have you read the books left out of the bible, your understanding of aramaic/hebrew etc) It would be hard to even try to justify, apart from just saying that being a Christian and a submissive and interested in BDSM practises (including masturbation, poly, homosexuality, submissive man and numerous other acts) do meld together and are acceptable. God is love and light and acceptance. And I truely believe it is the acceptance that allows us to be exactly what He loves. I have said it over and over(lol - I am a broken record) - many, many people know the bible, but very few know God. Denying who I am would be denying Gods power - and that would be the greatest 'sin' of all.

If you wish to contact me, please feel able to write me at collarme mail.

Peace and Love


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/12/2005 6:34:36 AM   
suberic101


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I am also a christian and struggle with the same questions- how can it be justified. I guess it can't and this something that attracts me, and if it is wrog I hope to find the help I need to move on.
That is why I am hear, to find out if this is right.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/12/2005 6:45:56 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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If you're a heterosexual, male dominant, monogamous, married couple, then there really isn't an issue. Dominance and submission, as far as I can tell, doesn't have any conflict with christianity.

However, any other variant could easily come into conflict with your faith. This happens to a lot of people. Most people either reconcile it within themselves, find a compromise with their belief system and sometimes even reject the faith itself.

It's a very personal journey and one in which you have to see where you want to go, what feels true for you and go with that.

(in reply to suberic101)
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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/12/2005 6:50:24 AM   
siamsa24


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This thread is wonderful. Thatnk you all for your great advice. I think that some practices are considered "wrong" because someone decided they didn't like it and decided to impose those thoughts on others. Sometimes these people can't deal with simple things, for example, here is a conversation I had just yesterday. There was a small group of people there, all of us know each other fairly well and we were walking to class talking about our weekend:

Me: "I went to Niagara Falls this weekend, it was really fun"
Guy 1 (not a prude): "Really? What was your favorite part?"
Me: "Oh, I just liked to be able to spend so much time with Brad, that happens so rarely lately"
Girl: "Gross, I just ate lunch, that's so disgusting......" (and she went on and on and the subject of conversation was quickly changed)

Actually I had just been talking about getting to spend uninturrupted hours with him to talk and just be together. She intrupreted that as saying that we spent hours having sex and therefore we couldn't talk about it.

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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/12/2005 7:00:08 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Yes because talking about people having fun time in bed together is just like...the grossest thing ever.

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