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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 4:26:34 PM   
Padriag


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Its an interesting question. In considering how best to answer it I thought about not just the different perspectives but also some of the history involved. There is more to this than just different ideas, there is something of ideology involved.

There are two general schools of thought on the subject... one says that in order to become a skilled dominant you must begin as a submissive and work your way up; the second school of thought says that becoming a skilled dominant requires experience and practice as a dominant. The debate emerges from these two different points of view. To help understand it, it might be useful to understand where some of it originates.

The ideology, for that is what it amounts to, that a dominant must begin as a submissive and progress from there in order to become a skilled dominant could be called "old school" for lack of a better name. You commonly find it associated with Old Guard ideas and so far as I can tell it may have originated there. Those who were Old Guard drew on their military background when creating structure within their groups. One idea that transferred over was the concept of "coming up through the ranks". That is the idea that in order to be a good leader you had to have had experience as a soldier first, you begin as a private and progress up through the ranks as an NCO. From what I can find, most Old Guard groups established a heirarchy based on that kind of structure. Individuals started out as submissives and then as they gained in experience some progressed onwards as dominants, but not all, not everyone had the necessary traits to become a dominant. In the process they learned a lot about what it was like to be on the receiving end of a whip (literally and otherwise) and that experience was believed to make them more skilled dominants. Of course one wonders then how the first OG dominants became such, someone had to be first?

There is something to be said for this, certainly it does give the dominant experience in some areas. For example, a better understanding of how cramped one gets when kept kneeling or caged for too long, exactly how painful the bruises from a heavy caning can be, etc. It can aid in learning many of the technical aspects of things. It can help in understanding the physical and practical aspects and realities of various forms of service. However, if one doesn't have the desire to be submissive, to be happy serving, the ability to enter subspace, then there are emotional and psychological aspects of this lifestyle that one will never directly experience what these things "feel" like and the experience remains largely academic. For example, someone who is "bottoming" but isn't really submissive will not react the same way to many things as someone who is very submissive. As such, their experience will not be the same and they won't get the same "feeling" from it. In that regard, beginning as a submissive is arguably not useful.

Somewhere, and I don't know that anyone can say when or where, the alternate ideology of doms begin as doms and subs are subs came about. I suspect it began with those who were outside of the more organized groups perhaps among the smaller number of heterosexuals involved in the lifestyle back then, but it is impossible to know for certain. Regardless, the idea has been growing steadily in popularity over the decades and at this point could reasonably be called the predominant ideology, as it seems to be widely accepted and many assume it to be the only correct way of doing things. The general idea is that a dominant "evolves" naturally from inborn traits, and along the way somehow acquires the knowledge necessary to be a skilled dominant. The draw back is that this ideology never had the supporting structure of something like Old Guard which defined how this knowledge was to be acquired. Dominants have been left largely on their own in figuring that out and in light of that it is perhaps not surprising to also see the attitude among some submissives that a dominant is somehow supposed to automatically know what to do, and also to see some scoff at dominants trying to learn. Such attitudes are unfortunate.

My personal view on both ideologies is that each presents useful ideas, but I don't feel either had it entirely right. I believe it was not the Old Guard practice of beginning as a submissive that produced more skilled dominants, but rather the fact that there was within their groups more of a structure for teaching and educating dominants in the skills necessary. Also there was a receptive and encouraging environment for the practice of teaching dominants. That is, from what I have read about these groups and how they did things, if one of their own wanted to learn to be a dominant they could be reasonably sure they would not be laughed at or ridiculed, instead they would be assessed and if they had the necessary dominant traits would be taught and educated. These days many react derisively to any dominant who does not present themselves as anything other than already accomplished, an attitude which itself encourages the deception that goes on, in addition to contributing to creating an environment hostile to teaching and sharing knowledge amongst dominants. I do feel that to be a skilled dominant one needs to focus on that, having formerly been submissive is of limited use to that and its more the education and training often associated with it that is of the greatest benefit. I think we would all be much better off if at some point the idea of of not only teaching dominants the skills they need was embraced, but a more defined concept of what that is, what should be learned and how it should be learned needs to be embraced. Unfortunately, lacking an organized community, I'm at a loss to suggest how that might happen.

As I have said elsewhere, there are many paths to becoming a skilled dominant. What matters isn't how you go there, but that you get there with the knowledge and skills necessary to fulfill the role.


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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 5:32:22 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

Just like coffee from the same coffee pot only needs one teaspoon of sugar your coffee, three for someone else, zero for mine, yet we ALL had a GREAT cup of coffee. You don't know what it tastes like to me, you can't.
Killer point Mercnbeth, I had never thought about that aspect. Even if you did (which would be amazing anyway) manage to get into the mindset...as you say, it would never be the same.


True. But I would have a better idea of what it tasted like then someone who has never had coffee before.

- LA

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 5:33:52 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael

I don't think it's necessary, however.

Then again, maybe the reason it's not necessary is because we've all been there. As small children, even if not after. Do you still remember when your parents were like gods?


and

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
As I have said elsewhere, there are many paths to becoming a skilled dominant. What matters isn't how you go there, but that you get there with the knowledge and skills necessary to fulfill the role.


Exactly the point I made in my original post. Some of us want/need to take it deeper. But in everyday life, there are enough opportunities for us to all experience domination and submission in one form or another.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/15/2005 5:36:22 PM >


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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 5:58:30 PM   
Raphael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
There is something to be said for this, certainly it does give the dominant experience in some areas. For example, a better understanding of how cramped one gets when kept kneeling or caged for too long, exactly how painful the bruises from a heavy caning can be, etc. It can aid in learning many of the technical aspects of things. It can help in understanding the physical and practical aspects and realities of various forms of service. However, if one doesn't have the desire to be submissive, to be happy serving, the ability to enter subspace, then there are emotional and psychological aspects of this lifestyle that one will never directly experience what these things "feel" like and the experience remains largely academic. For example, someone who is "bottoming" but isn't really submissive will not react the same way to many things as someone who is very submissive. As such, their experience will not be the same and they won't get the same "feeling" from it. In that regard, beginning as a submissive is arguably not useful.



I'll let the whole 'Old Guard' bit pass for now, to avoid hijacking the thread.

But I have to comment on the snippet above. The experiences you refer to are not 'submissive' they are 'bottom.'

I do agree absolutely that one needs to have some sort of experience bottoming in order to top responsibly. This can be as simple as testing all your whips on your own skin before applying them to someone else (a basic precaution I would hope every whip-wielder follows.) But it has nothing whatsoever to do with submission, or dominant/submissive relationships, except in the rather incidental sense.

I understood the original query to be referring to dominants being submissives first, not tops being bottoms first. Sorry if I misunderstood.

-RaphaEl

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/15/2005 9:04:31 PM   
junecleaver


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I absolutely agree.

Not to mention I find "Dominant submissives" or whatever to be extremely unattractive. If I know someone has been flogging your ass and calling you a dirty slut, that's all that's going to be running through my mind while you try to order me around.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/16/2005 5:59:37 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Something I find curious is all the attention as to getting doms to "experience submission" with little emphasis on submissives getting to "experience domination."

Both take a lot of skills, an understanding of the process from that perspective, a different set of responsibilities and processes. I have learned many invaluable things about myself and submission by topping and examining things from a dominant perspective. I think in fact that this was part of what the Owner had in mind so I would be more sympathetic and train myself to serve better in some ways.

I don't think you have to experience topping/domination in order to be a good slave and I don't think you have to experience bottoming/submission in order to be a good master. But there definitely can be benefits to both.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/16/2005 6:15:13 AM   
ruffnecksbabygir


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Personally, i don't believe this to be true. i've heard this theory a few times myself, i couldn't disagree more.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/16/2005 9:24:52 AM   
perverseangelic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
I don't think you have to experience topping/domination in order to be a good slave and I don't think you have to experience bottoming/submission in order to be a good master. But there definitely can be benefits to both.


I don't think you have to.

I just like my partners to have tried. Not seriously, as I know some people for whom that just wouldn't work.

I liked Merc's coffee analogy, though on this side. Sure, you can't know how cofee tastes to me, but I'd like you to at least have taken a sip of coffee so we're on the same page. We'll -never- experience it the same way. I just like to know there's been some experience there, just enough to get your feet wet.

I don't htink that you -cannot- be a good "role x" unless you try "role y." I just, personally, like it if you have.

I agree with Emerald that there isn't a focus on submissive people trying out dominance. I think there should be. It's not that you have to prove who you are, just that I think people do better with a wider variety of experiences. Ifigure that trying the other side of the whip is kinda like trying an exotic food. It may not be something you'd normally do, or something you'll do again, but it broadened your horizons.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/17/2005 9:09:07 AM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Exactly. But it is black and white from the perspective. Just like coffee from the same coffee pot only needs one teaspoon of sugar your coffee, three for someone else, zero for mine, yet we ALL had a GREAT cup of coffee. You don't know what it tastes like to me, you can't. If I put one teaspoon of sugar in mine and try it, I'll only know how the one spoon of sugar changed the way the coffee tasted to me, not how it tastes to you.

I'd guess you'd have to take the same example from the adding milk perspective to make it even more black & white.


What an excellent analogy - thanks.


I'm not a masochist - if I let myself be hit, I won't have a masochist's perspective.

I'm not a submissive - if I tried to submit, I wouldn't have a submissive's perspective.

In fact, pretending to be what I am not, and going through the motions of my partner's experience would actually lessen my understanding and empathy - I would have all these horrible, negative impressions and feelings crowding out any attempt I had to model or understand their headspace.

Going through the motions of my partner's experience would be that - going through the motions, with no insight gained. As another pointed out, by this logic, in order to be a good hetero man, I'd need to be a woman first or vice versa.

The genesis of this myth is our natural desire to project our experiences on others. We just know if it worked for us, was true for us, it has to be universal. So some who have switched feel a need to make their experience a maxim or guiding principle.

But since I'm not a switch, trying to swicth wouldn't help me have any insight into those who do.

Again: trying to gain empathy into another's experience when you don't share their wiring by experiencing their role has the opposite effect - instead of more insight you now have no insight. If I tried to be a submissive masochist, where they felt safe I would feel threatened, where they felt melting submission I would feel rage, where they felt sexual excitement I would feel fight/flight, and most of all, where they felt an opening into intimacy, I would be closed off to intimacy.

I can't experience what my converse experiences - that's what converse means.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/17/2005 2:18:50 PM   
mistoferin


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I would like to thank everyone for their wonderful and well thought out responses. I started this thread because it is a topic that I have wondered about for some time. Frequently, I have heard Dominants belittling or discounting other Dominants because they have not tried the submissive end of things.

As I have read through all of the responses here and also on the other thread that LadyA pointed out (thank you, not sure how I missed that one the first time around), I think that I have come to believe even more strongly that the Dominants who have tried this experience have not come away from it with the experience or level of understanding that many of them seem to think that they have.

While the experience of bottoming may be benefical in some ways, it is not a viable way to understanding the mindset of submission. As so many have pointed out, we all feel and experience things differently. Even the physical sensations will be felt differently. While they may bottom, they are certainly not doing so from a submissive perspective. And bottoming is not submission.

One person that I know brought up an interesting question. Is the Dominant who is bottoming for the experience actually Dominating him/herself to allow him/herself to submit to another? If this is the case it would most certainly change their perception of the experience.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/17/2005 5:23:29 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:


I don't think you have to experience topping/domination in order to be a good slave and I don't think you have to experience bottoming/submission in order to be a good master. But there definitely can be benefits to both.


Once again, I concur with this viewpoint.

The more you know...

- LA

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/17/2005 5:26:07 PM   
Lepidoptera


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I'm personally really worried when a Dom/Domme says they switch, or that were sub at one point, mostly because I'm worried all top from the bottom- which I really really hate.


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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/17/2005 5:46:45 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Lepid- a valid worry I suppose, but I haven't had any experience that switches or subs who top or doms who bottom are any more prone to topping from the bottom than anyone else.

Topping from the bottom usually occurs when there's an insecurity raising its head or if the bottom/sub hasn't been trained better OR it's some training/game where all participants are fully aware of what's going on. Nothing much to do with orientation.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/17/2005 6:18:06 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Emerald makes a valid point. Also, I would add that just because I attempted submission, doesn't make me a D/s switch.

Also, for those of us who have attempted submission, we have a better idea of the role that you play in the equation. So I could see this as a way to understand what kind of control a Dominant must have.

To be honest, when I attempted submission, I topped from the bottom almost always (because submission didn't suit me). I learned quite a bit by observing the stronger dominants how to deal with this.

- LA

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/18/2005 12:08:36 AM   
Focus50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I can and do understand that it could be helpful for a Dominant to experience the physical things that he expects his submissive to endure. But that doesn't even begin to touch upon the mental experience of being submissive. To me it is kind of the same as expecting a man to know what it feels like to be a woman...or vice versa.

Any thoughts???
I think as far as physical sensation is concerned, bottoming is a way of becoming a better Top, but that's where I'd draw the line - if I were a Top....

I'm one who believes you're a Dominant or you're not. Submitting is what submissives do and I never have or never will switch roles. For those who think subbing first is the way for a Dom to go, I respect your right to your own opinion, especially if it's worked for you, but it's NOT my opinion or belief.

This topic is eternal and I think the OP has done an excellent job herself in addressing both sides of the argument. My need is to control my girl and that doesn't always require restraints etc - it's about respective core mindset rather than playing a role.

I'm always Dominant but I only dominate my girl. For everyone else, lifestyler or vanilla, I'll not be dominated by anyone, let alone agree to submit. Dom and sub are complimenting opposites who create a unique and powerful dynamic when together - it's not a game and it's more than mere kink!

I have neither time nor respect for those who preach a "sub-first" philosophy for Dom/mes as I regard my dominance as an integral part of my sexuality. I'm no more wired to submit than I'm wired to be female. Really, does a man have to get pregnant to be a "better" man? Can't we just accept fact that pregnancy is what females are equipped for....? And so it is for submitting - it's what submissives are equipped to do....

Focus50.


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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/18/2005 9:22:02 AM   
Kiaban


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I can and do understand that it could be helpful for a Dominant to experience the physical things that he expects his submissive to endure. But that doesn't even begin to touch upon the mental experience of being submissive. To me it is kind of the same as expecting a man to know what it feels like to be a woman...or vice versa.

Any thoughts???
I think as far as physical sensation is concerned, bottoming is a way of becoming a better Top, but that's where I'd draw the line - if I were a Top....

I'm one who believes you're a Dominant or you're not. Submitting is what submissives do and I never have or never will switch roles. For those who think subbing first is the way for a Dom to go, I respect your right to your own opinion, especially if it's worked for you, but it's NOT my opinion or belief.

This topic is eternal and I think the OP has done an excellent job herself in addressing both sides of the argument. My need is to control my girl and that doesn't always require restraints etc - it's about respective core mindset rather than playing a role.

I'm always Dominant but I only dominate my girl. For everyone else, lifestyler or vanilla, I'll not be dominated by anyone, let alone agree to submit. Dom and sub are complimenting opposites who create a unique and powerful dynamic when together - it's not a game and it's more than mere kink!

I have neither time nor respect for those who preach a "sub-first" philosophy for Dom/mes as I regard my dominance as an integral part of my sexuality. I'm no more wired to submit than I'm wired to be female. Really, does a man have to get pregnant to be a "better" man? Can't we just accept fact that pregnancy is what females are equipped for....? And so it is for submitting - it's what submissives are equipped to do....

Focus50.



I agree with the D/s portion of this but have to say concerning the top/bottom side that I think it still doesnt tell you much about how "a particular sub" will feel about any activity.
Lets face it even among subs some things like sting..vrs thud..paddles or single tail ..hard or soft..warm up? some love it, others detest it, hard and heavy is the way to go.

My point being that if playing with one bottom doesnt even tell you how another would respond to the same stimulus how can you expect a top to truely "get" what the bottom feels simply because he was exposed to the same thing.

People are individual in likes, dislikes, needs and so forth I still maintain that communication and observation rule the day when knowing how to dom/top/ whatever.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/18/2005 10:18:49 AM   
perverseangelic


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Reading this thread I've realized something.

It isn't that I prefer tops/dominant people/et al who have bottomed. I prefer people who are -willing- to bottom.

I find that I regact strongly and negativly when someone states "I will NEVER bottom." It isn't that I necessarially want them to. It's that I want them to be open to it, or open to a situation that is not what they expect. I guess I see utter rigidity as a bad thing.

When I see someone say they will never, ever bottom, it makes me wonder what other roles they are rigid about.

I guess I don't care so much if you've actually done it, so much as if you're willing to if the proper situation occured.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/18/2005 1:48:00 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I find that I regact strongly and negativly when someone states "I will NEVER bottom." It isn't that I necessarially want them to. It's that I want them to be open to it, or open to a situation that is not what they expect. I guess I see utter rigidity as a bad thing.

When I see someone say they will never, ever bottom, it makes me wonder what other roles they are rigid about.



When I see someone who refuses to let others be themselves, I have a strong, negative reaction.

From your perspective, a person not willing to bottom is rigid. That's certainly your right - if someone else's self-definition, if them knowing themselves and being true to themselves is a turn off, it is a turnoff.

From my perspective, someone saying, "Unless you feel as I do, unless you are confortable with doing thing my way, I see you as rigid," is a big turnoff.


This may be a thing where we have to acknowledge individual tastes and preferences, and not confuse what I like with what is open minded and thoughtful.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/18/2005 2:25:31 PM   
perverseangelic


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That wasn't exactly what I was trying to say.

I wasn't saying that "unless you bottom I don't like you." I was saying that I react negativly to totally dismissing the idea that you would ever pursue a course of action.

Nah, I don't think you gotta bottom. I don't think you should seek it out. Nor am I saying that if you -know- strongly that you have no desire to bottom, that's a bad thing.

I'm saying that to say "under no circumstances, ever, would I do this thing" bothers me. (IN RELATION TO ROLES) I think that there are so many circumstances that can occur that to say that you will never never never ever get whipped, or never never never ever bottom, or, hell, never never never ever top is to underestimate the variety of experiences and situations one could get in.

I do see what you're saying, and definatly understand. Like I said, personal reaction. I -don't- think people have to do it my way. There's no point in saying that people should do what I think, and to say so is silly. However, I can state my reactions to other positions, and encourage others to do the same, even if it includes callin' me narrow minded :)

I think, though, that it's wise to seek partners who have a similar outlook. That way, there isn't a conflict of outlook, and no one has the need to impose one's system of values.


edited for clarity.

< Message edited by perverseangelic -- 5/18/2005 2:26:58 PM >


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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/18/2005 3:56:35 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

I wasn't saying that "unless you bottom I don't like you." I was saying that I react negativly to totally dismissing the idea that you would ever pursue a course of action.

Nah, I don't think you gotta bottom. I don't think you should seek it out. Nor am I saying that if you -know- strongly that you have no desire to bottom, that's a bad thing.


That is sort of how I feel about guys who say "I could never, ever, ever kiss another man. Gross!"

I usually say to them: "Free your mind, and your ass will follow".

- LA

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