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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/18/2005 4:08:03 PM

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quote:

I have neither time nor respect for those who preach a "sub-first" philosophy for Dom/mes as I regard my dominance as an integral part of my sexuality. I'm no more wired to submit than I'm wired to be female. Really, does a man have to get pregnant to be a "better" man? Can't we just accept fact that pregnancy is what females are equipped for....? And so it is for submitting - it's what submissives are equipped to do....

Well now you are comparing biological limitations with psychological predispositions. Actually, I’m not sure exactly what it is that you are arguing, but let me take a jab at it as I kind of like doing things like this.

If I understand the point you are trying to make, I don't think that your comparison is full-proof. You talk about integral parts of us defining who we are. For one, you are talking about a very black/white situation of "having the proper biological equipment to conceive a child or not" and trying to apply it to a situation of personal choice. Realize that not all women can conceive children and this does not make them less of a woman. A lot of women can technically conceive a child yet do not want to, which again doesn't make them less of a woman. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in your seemingly analysis, you have way too many uncontrollable variables to make is so cause & effect.

Just like I've discovered over time that I have a strong dominant side and that I am primarily attracted to men, it hasn't always been so. I permit myself to go with the flow and see where life takes me. I don't cage myself into an imperative or role that I will become prisoner of.

And for the record, I think a lot of people here simply said that it *might* be helpful, but absolutely not necessary, for people to attempt to experience the other side of the coin. So please, give us your time & respect. ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Kiaban)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/18/2005 10:47:48 PM

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I don't like coffee. I've tasted it before. I didn't like it. I love the scent of it. I can't stand the taste. I've tried other types of coffee. Variations on a theme... I've tried adding milk... sugar... you name it. I hated 'em all. I even spat some of them out. Couldn't get past the taste. I tried it because my friends were all drinking coffee... I tried it because when they went to Starbucks I couldn't stomach the idea of paying some crazy amount for a bottle of water. But I sure as heck don't want to shell out money for something I just won't drink.

I've tried eel. Nasty. Vile. Couldn't get past the feel... or the taste. I could barely chew it... nearly threw up after swallowing it.

I knew I wouldn't be terribly fond of either coffee or eel at first. But when I kept trying the things I knew I wouldn't be keen on it didn't change my impression of them. I know what I like and what I don't like. I will not bend to another's food choice.

I hate being in pain. I'm not a masochist. I don't have any desire to feel pain. I'd run a thousand miles in the opposite direction.
I don't like being tied up. I don't like feeling restricted. I'm prone to anxiety attacks and being restrained in any fashion often sets off the alarm bells.

I'm going to go with my gut. I'm going to say, "Thanks, but no thanks."

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 2:26:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kiaban

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

I think as far as physical sensation is concerned, bottoming is a way of becoming a better Top, but that's where I'd draw the line - if I were a Top....

I agree with the D/s portion of this but have to say concerning the top/bottom side that I think it still doesnt tell you much about how "a particular sub" will feel about any activity.
Lets face it even among subs some things like sting..vrs thud..paddles or single tail ..hard or soft..warm up? some love it, others detest it, hard and heavy is the way to go.

My point being that if playing with one bottom doesnt even tell you how another would respond to the same stimulus how can you expect a top to truely "get" what the bottom feels simply because he was exposed to the same thing.

People are individual in likes, dislikes, needs and so forth I still maintain that communication and observation rule the day when knowing how to dom/top/ whatever.

Re bottoming and physical sensations, I was merely posing an opinion NOT based on personal practice or experience - theory only. Like I said, I'm not a Top.... I totally agree everyone has different responses to a given sensation or situation, but that's an answer to a different question to the OP's.

Focus50.

(in reply to Kiaban)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 2:49:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
When I see someone say they will never, ever bottom, it makes me wonder what other roles they are rigid about.

I never have and never will:
Bottom, submit, kiss another male, have a gay experience, smoke, do a one-night-stand, screw an animal, dress in drag, wear a rug or cultivate a "comb-over" - to name a few off the top of my head.

Of course I've occasionally allowed my girl to have some fun using a crop on me when she was especially frisky after a previous night's scening but that wasn't bottoming - was merely a light-hearted moment with a dash of temporary insanity. lol I let her hit me but I never let her HIT me; if you know what I mean....

Focus50.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 3:37:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I have neither time nor respect for those who preach a "sub-first" philosophy for Dom/mes as I regard my dominance as an integral part of my sexuality. I'm no more wired to submit than I'm wired to be female. Really, does a man have to get pregnant to be a "better" man? Can't we just accept fact that pregnancy is what females are equipped for....? And so it is for submitting - it's what submissives are equipped to do....

Well now you are comparing biological limitations with psychological predispositions. Actually, I’m not sure exactly what it is that you are arguing, but let me take a jab at it as I kind of like doing things like this.

If I understand the point you are trying to make, I don't think that your comparison is full-proof. You talk about integral parts of us defining who we are. For one, you are talking about a very black/white situation of "having the proper biological equipment to conceive a child or not" and trying to apply it to a situation of personal choice. Realize that not all women can conceive children and this does not make them less of a woman. A lot of women can technically conceive a child yet do not want to, which again doesn't make them less of a woman. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in your seemingly analysis, you have way too many uncontrollable variables to make is so cause & effect.

Just like I've discovered over time that I have a strong dominant side and that I am primarily attracted to men, it hasn't always been so. I permit myself to go with the flow and see where life takes me. I don't cage myself into an imperative or role that I will become prisoner of.

And for the record, I think a lot of people here simply said that it *might* be helpful, but absolutely not necessary, for people to attempt to experience the other side of the coin. So please, give us your time & respect. ;)

The key word in my passage you've quoted is "preach". Over the years, I've had too many "enlightened" Dom/mes try to tell me (and the BDSM world) that bottoming first is the only way a "true" and caring Dom/me evolves and matures. Absolute CRAP! Like I said in the part you've cut out, I respect that it may be their experience and belief etc, but it's not mine nor many other Dom/mes, I'd wager!

I don't think biological limitations are any greater or less than the limitations of a particular mindset or "hardwiring" - hence I stand by my pregnancy analogy. Or are you arguing that having the same physical equipment as a homosexual, for example, means there's nothing preventing me from being gay or experimenting with a gay experience? Like submitting, that ain't gonna happen, either!

Yes, many people did say "that it *might* be helpful, but absolutely not necessary, for people to attempt to experience the other side of the coin."
And I do respect their opinion, belief or experience etc - I have no issue with that other than it's not for me. Preaching that it's the only way and berating those who disagree is a whole other matter. My original statement (preaching) was not aimed specifically at anyone in this thread; but I've had this argument so many times in other Forums that I thought I'd get it on the record, first.

Focus50.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 5:02:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I don't think biological limitations are any greater or less than the limitations of a particular mindset or "hardwiring" - hence I stand by my pregnancy analogy. Or are you arguing that having the same physical equipment as a homosexual, for example, means there's nothing preventing me from being gay or experimenting with a gay experience? Like submitting, that ain't gonna happen, either!

No matter how much you want to be pregnant, it is never going to happen. I mean unless there are major medical breakthroughs in our lifetime. As for having a gay or bottoming experience, you may chose not to have one, but there is nothing stopping you other then your desire not to.

I think I explained it a little bit better this time. No?

quote:

My original statement (preaching) was not aimed specifically at anyone in this thread; but I've had this argument so many times in other Forums that I thought I'd get it on the record, first.

I understand what you are saying. I just didn't see any preaching going on in this thread so I was wondering who you were identifying as the preachers.

My opinion on preachers is that they are highly opinionated and rarely take the time to listen to other's points of view. That is why I usually tend to tune them out. An opinion that hasn't been formed with an open mind able to deconstruct and analyze various perspectives is not an opinion that is worth my time.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 7:53:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I wasn't saying that "unless you bottom I don't like you." I was saying that I react negativly to totally dismissing the idea that you would ever pursue a course of action.

Nah, I don't think you gotta bottom. I don't think you should seek it out. Nor am I saying that if you -know- strongly that you have no desire to bottom, that's a bad thing.

That is sort of how I feel about guys who say "I could never, ever, ever kiss another man. Gross!"

I usually say to them: "Free your mind, and your ass will follow".

- LA

Other people's lifestyle choices don't mean you need to free their minds. If a man doesn't want to kiss another man, it isn't because he is limited, restricted, benighted - his mind and ass don't need freeing. If you can't respect other people's right to make choices about what they are comfortable with, what they feel is healthy for them, that says nothing about them, but loads about you.

When you meet a strict lesbian woman who wouldn't countenance touching a man, do you "usually say to them: "Free your mind, and your ass will follow"."?

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 8:07:35 AM

perverseangelic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

When you meet a strict lesbian woman who wouldn't countenance touching a man, do you "usually say to them: "Free your mind, and your ass will follow"."?

No, I say that I think that there are so many possible occurences that it is -possible- in -some- situation, she would touch a man sexually.

Ok, drastic example. You're told you and/or your family/friends will be murdered horribly if you don't submitt or bottom to someone for a brief period of time. Your choice being bottoming and/or death or someone elses death.

You aren't bottoming by choice. You are bottoming. Yes, non-consensaul, so not in the realm of BDSM (IMHO) yet -still- a stiuation where one bottomed. Or kissed a man. Or had sex with a woman.

That is the -only- thing I'm saying. That I think there are so many possible situation that to say it will -never- happen tends to forget all the stuff that could occur.

This thread has caused me to revise and refine my opinions and to realize what I -really- think. I think that's a good thing :) I've been able to become much more spesific in what it is -exactly- that rubs me the wrong way when someone says "no, never." My mind has -definatly- been changed, and I'd say that's a pretty good thing. I'm not closed to it changing again.

Again, I don't -care- what you do. Do what works for you. There are my personal -opinions- not what I dictate people need to do. It's how I percieve this, and what I -personally- look for in partners. Lord knows I wouldn't be interested in someone who particpates in scat, and believe it is an inherantly unsafe practice. Doesn't make doing it wrong, unless it's against someone's will.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Faramir)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 4:27:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have heard it stated by many that the best of Dominants are those who have been is positions of submission first
Any thoughts???

As a natural dominant, I think the best dominants are those who know what they are doing is service.

_____________________________

He who rules truly serves
She who serves truly rules

Life is not measured by the breaths we take,
but by the things which take our breath away

Honor is not making good choices,
it is dealing with the consequences.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 5:41:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I wasn't saying that "unless you bottom I don't like you." I was saying that I react negativly to totally dismissing the idea that you would ever pursue a course of action.

Nah, I don't think you gotta bottom. I don't think you should seek it out. Nor am I saying that if you -know- strongly that you have no desire to bottom, that's a bad thing.

That is sort of how I feel about guys who say "I could never, ever, ever kiss another man. Gross!"

I usually say to them: "Free your mind, and your ass will follow".

- LA

Other people's lifestyle choices don't mean you need to free their minds. If a man doesn't want to kiss another man, it isn't because he is limited, restricted, benighted - his mind and ass don't need freeing. If you can't respect other people's right to make choices about what they are comfortable with, what they feel is healthy for them, that says nothing about them, but loads about you.

When you meet a strict lesbian woman who wouldn't countenance touching a man, do you "usually say to them: "Free your mind, and your ass will follow"."?

First of all Faramir, you just made a whole lot of assumptions about me. Look at what perverseangelic wrote and to what I responded to. You have really misunderstood both of our positions. That could say loads about you ;) But I tend to not judge people so quickly.

Many of my male partners have never kissed another man, nor do they have any desire to. But they do not say "Gross!" or go around acting all repulsed. That is the behavior that concerns me more. It is homophobic. It is disrespectful. I don't particularly like to date close minded people. That doesn't mean ever have to kiss another man. It just means that I'd prefer it if they saw it for what it is, which is a legitimate expression of sexuality.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Faramir)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/19/2005 5:45:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dragonofjapan

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I have heard it stated by many that the best of Dominants are those who have been is positions of submission first
Any thoughts???

As a natural dominant, I think the best dominants are those who know what they are doing is service.

Interesting view point Zip. I personally don't see it as a service. But then again, I'm not into the whole Pygmalion thing like you. And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, I'm just saying you and I can both be truly dominant without being motivated by the same things. I’m more motivated by creating situations for mutual growth by overcoming challenges and building strength in character for both parties.

For me, a natural dominant is simply being myself.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to dragonofjapan)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/20/2005 3:32:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

No matter how much you want to be pregnant, it is never going to happen. I mean unless there are major medical breakthroughs in our lifetime. As for having a gay or bottoming experience, you may chose not to have one, but there is nothing stopping you other then your desire not to.

I think I explained it a little bit better this time. No?

A resounding "NO"!

Yanno, I can't decide if this is a lame attempt at humour or you're wayyyyy younger than 32.... And no-one chooses to be gay (or hetero); the Gods or genes or whatever choose you.

quote:

Focus50:
My original statement (preaching) was not aimed specifically at anyone in this thread; but I've had this argument so many times in other Forums that I thought I'd get it on the record, first.

quote:

LadyAngelika:
I understand what you are saying. I just didn't see any preaching going on in this thread so I was wondering who you were identifying as the preachers.

I didn't see any, either, as I alluded to in the passage you've actually quoted here - see above.... Errrr, you're not seriously asking for names of people from other Forums, on other sites and dating back several years, are you?

Look, if you're just trying to be clever at my expense, find another hobby - one you're good at.

Focus50.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/20/2005 5:15:44 AM

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Actually Focus, I was attempting to engage you in a thought provoking discussion.

If you cannot understand me, then I'd be glad to explain it again. However, I will not do so if you choose to belittle me. I will not allow you to do so.

We obviously disagree on a variety of points but you don't see me finding the need to insult you.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/20/2005 6:12:37 AM

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I can't really agree with the idea that the best dominants were first submissives. I mean, if they were a submissive and crossed over, did they really interpret their position or the sensations they experienced in the same way as one who has always identified as a submissive? Obviously, there was some reason they decided to cross over into the controlling side of the power exchange. Perhaps something was missing...it didn't "feel" right..etc. So I don't believe that their experiences are really comparable to that of a submissive.

Do they perhaps have a better idea of what it feels like to be on the other side of the whip? Sure, but do they know how a submissive really processes and internalizes that information? I don't believe so.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/21/2005 6:06:48 AM

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Hi Mercnbeth

I agree with what you are suggesting but your "Better would be" is what perspective is by definition....

per·spec·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-spktv)
n.

A view or vista.
A mental view or outlook: “It is useful occasionally to look at the past to gain a perspective on the present” (Fabian Linden).
The appearance of objects in depth as perceived by normal binocular vision.

The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole: a perspective of history; a need to view the problem in the proper perspective.
Subjective evaluation of relative significance; a point of view: the perspective of the displaced homemaker.
The ability to perceive things in their actual interrelations or comparative importance: tried to keep my perspective throughout the crisis.
The technique of representing three-dimensional objects and depth relationships on a two-dimensional surface.

I want to know when the pain/pleasure stops and the pain/pain begins in relation to each type of play, I can only percieve what it will be like until I have experienced it in play then it si no longer a perception but experience.

IWY

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/21/2005 6:22:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IWantYou

Hi Mercnbeth

I agree with what you are suggesting but your "Better would be" is what perspective is by definition....

per·spec·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-spktv)
n.

A view or vista.
A mental view or outlook: “It is useful occasionally to look at the past to gain a perspective on the present” (Fabian Linden).
The appearance of objects in depth as perceived by normal binocular vision.

The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole: a perspective of history; a need to view the problem in the proper perspective.
Subjective evaluation of relative significance; a point of view: the perspective of the displaced homemaker.
The ability to perceive things in their actual interrelations or comparative importance: tried to keep my perspective throughout the crisis.
The technique of representing three-dimensional objects and depth relationships on a two-dimensional surface.

I want to know when the pain/pleasure stops and the pain/pain begins in relation to each type of play, I can only percieve what it will be like until I have experienced it in play then it si no longer a perception but experience.

IWY

Perspective : a point of view
Your experience will still be based on the sensations you recieve and how that effects you individually and that does vary from person to person . so when pain/pleasure stops for you and when it would stop for someone else ..or hell even begin is still a matter of communication and observation more than personal experience to the same stimulus.

(in reply to IWantYou)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/21/2005 8:25:18 AM

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I don't think that you have to be a submissive first to be a Great Dom to a submissive. Though it may give a Dom some intuition to relate to the sub I don't find it necessary. Sure I belive that the best Chiefs use to be indians but that's a different subject.

I have a great deal of empathy and do not need to be in ones shoes to relate to there situation learning do's and dont's. That comes with the experience you have with the one you're with learning from each other.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/21/2005 8:30:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

No matter how much you want to be pregnant, it is never going to happen. I mean unless there are major medical breakthroughs in our lifetime. As for having a gay or bottoming experience, you may chose not to have one, but there is nothing stopping you other then your desire not to.

I think I explained it a little bit better this time. No?

A resounding "NO"!

Yanno, I can't decide if this is a lame attempt at humour or you're wayyyyy younger than 32.... And no-one chooses to be gay (or hetero); the Gods or genes or whatever choose you.

That depends. What's your definition of gay?

I've heard some people say about women who think they might want to have sex with other women that they're not bisexual- they're just saying that because they think it's cool. Since they've chosen not to have sex with women, they aren't really bi- which makes bisexuality a choice. Indeed, some people who call themselves lesbians have had sex with men before- but choose to define themselves as lesbians.

But on the other hand, gay men have shown physical differnences from straight men- having to do with different sized brain anatomy to male pheremone recognition- indicating that their sexual preference is not a choice, although they can choose to act on it.

So is homosexuality only dependant on your actions, in which case it is definitely a choice? Or is it dependant on your INNATE sexuality- what you would choose if there were no taboo against it? By any number of definitions I am either straight, bi, or lesbian... tells you how much language knows about sexuality : ).

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/21/2005 3:30:59 PM

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quote:

So is homosexuality only dependant on your actions, in which case it is definitely a choice?

You bring about what I consider to be a very valid point Lepidoptera. To try and oversimplify homosexuality is futile in my opinion.

We have the first artifacts depicting men sodomizing each other in Ancient Greek vases and yet the word homosexual was coined by human rights campaigner Karl-Maria Kertbeny in Germany in 1869. That's many years of homosexual actions by people who could not technically identify as homosexuals.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Lepidoptera)

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/22/2005 5:16:43 PM

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If you believe that a Dom needs to be a submissive first in order to be a better Dom, then shouldn't you believe a sub should be a Dom first in order to be a better sub? I don't think anyone feels that way that I know of. For some Doms, their stint as a sub may have given them some kind of insight. For me, to know that a crop hurts won't give me any help in being a better Dom. For me, experience, communication and observation has always been of much more value. When your sub is happy and fulfilled, you know you are doing things right.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

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