RE: forced feminization (Full Version)

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Euryanx -> RE: forced feminization (6/30/2005 11:21:32 PM)

Forced feminization is a a fantasy for uptight closet queens who haven't the balls to use their own free will and just experiment with their gender identity.

I mean, come on. This is the year 2005. If you want to put on a dress, for God's sake, just try one on.

I tell my friends I am a "recovering transsexual." I took hormones for 8 years (under a doctor's care).

Assisyforher... not to disappoint you hon, but herbals are a waste of time. If you want real results, you need to see a doctor. What the Tgirls here told me to do was go into a doctors office, dressed like a woman, and say, "I want a sex change." When i did that, the doctor reached for his prescription pad and put me on premarin, provera and aldactone. He also advised me to see a shrink - which I never did. Well, not until much later. Which was a big mistake. I might have saved myself 5 years of electrolysis, and lots of other trials and tribulations if I'd found a good therapist right up front.

Can't say that I regret those 8 years. I look at it now like it was a temporary addiction. I was addicted to the desire to look "pretty." I was 20 pounds lighter, had long hair all the way down my back, and was able to walk the walk without getting 'clocked' for a long time... even dated a NY Ranger hockey player for 3 months one summer... I had a good, fun ride... I'm glad I did it when i was young, and it was possible to be pretty.

But when i went into Toby Meltzer's office (an SRS surgeon), and the whole idea of the surgery scared the crap out of me, I backed off, and realized that I was living a lie. Through therapy, i realized i wasn't so much a woman, as a failed man. (Not saying other TS's share my diagnosis... everyone is different)

Going back to being a man was just as hard as becoming a woman, but I am SO thankful that I went back.

Steve



lonewolf05 -> RE: forced feminization (7/2/2005 12:41:07 PM)

Forced feminization is a a fantasy for uptight closet queens who haven't the balls to use their own free will and just experiment with their gender identity.

I mean, come on. This is the year 2005. If you want to put on a dress, for God's sake, just try one on.
=============
yeah yeah yeah. now if i just had the $$$$ i'd be in fine shape, ya know?
want and have are 2 different horses here.
and at $700 a month, it is damn diffficult just to live. let's not even get into anything past mere existence.

ah well. life's a bitch and then ya die, huh?

take care
good luck to ya.



onceburned -> RE: forced feminization (7/2/2005 2:15:08 PM)

quote:

and at $700 a month, it is damn diffficult just to live. let's not even get into anything past mere existence.


Yes, it is hard to get by on only $700 per month. I remember you mentioned you are drawing disability and that you get your medical care through the VA.

The VA is not the most transgender-friendly medical organization. But have you looked into getting Medicaid? That would increase your options.

Have you checked out whether there are gender counsellors who work on a sliding scale?



lonewolf05 -> RE: froced feminzation (7/2/2005 2:28:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: 78787878
I don't know about that. Looking through the profiles there are quite a few FemDommes that list Forced Crossdressing as one of their interests.


Ahhh... but you see, forced crossdressing is based upon the idea that the guy will find it humiliating. So the interest is in humilation not in transformation.
==============
I think there are a lot of guys who are looking for a woman to manage their feminization (which they truly desire). But the number of dommes who are interested in this kind of work is much less.


sadly enough...it is true. not very many.



lonewolf05 -> RE: forced feminization (7/2/2005 2:32:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

and at $700 a month, it is damn diffficult just to live. let's not even get into anything past mere existence.


Yes, it is hard to get by on only $700 per month. I remember you mentioned you are drawing disability and that you get your medical care through the VA.

The VA is not the most transgender-friendly medical organization.

==========

But have you looked into getting Medicaid? That would increase your options.

Have you checked out whether there are gender counsellors who work on a sliding scale?

quote:

But have you looked into getting Medicaid? That would increase your options.
===============
yes yes. but with my newest Mistress i believe it is out-the-window. She believes in fun, but not permanent. ah well tis life. just coz i want something doesn't mean i can have it.
just mere days away to move to another state-------AGAIN!



lonewolf05 -> RE: froced feminzation (7/2/2005 2:37:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned
Ahhh... but you see, forced crossdressing is based upon the idea that the guy will find it humiliating. So the interest is in humilation not in transformation.

Once again you are correct, thanks for enlightening Letmebe...

quote:

I think there are a lot of guys who are looking for a woman to manage their feminization (which they truly desire). But the number of dommes who are interested in this kind of work is much less.

Nodding in agreement... It's so much easier and cheaper to find someone with breasts already than to foot bill for hormones, psychotherapy and surgery..
Lord, why wasn't I born Bisexual, lol.. M

==========
quote:


Nodding in agreement... It's so much easier and cheaper to find someone with breasts already than to foot bill for hormones, psychotherapy and surgery..
Lord, why wasn't I born Bisexual, lol.. M

========

yes but just think. none of the usual normal failings? no periods, no bloating, no cramps, no pms, nothing...a 24/7/365 girl without the normal problems? sounds like a deal to ME!
ah well. figured that would go over like a cast iron balloon.



balletsissypa -> RE: forced feminization (7/2/2005 2:56:51 PM)

if a list is up long enough theres bound to eventually be one ahole like you steve. Does the name calling help you deal with your own strange situation stevie? For someone with all the answers i have to wonder why you went from boy to girl to boy? i wonder if you would share your post with your pyscharatrist and ask him what he or she thinks about what you wrote and then share that with us. Should we start a pool on when you will be back to trying to be a woman again?


kimmy



onceburned -> RE: forced feminization (7/2/2005 3:29:40 PM)

Whoa, Kimmy you are totally out of bounds!

I don't know what buttons that Steve has pushed for you, but from the posts I have read on another forum website I believe Steve's story.



Euryanx -> RE: forced feminization (7/2/2005 4:36:19 PM)

Chris, thanx for the supportive words. Nice to see you again. You are a true gentleman.

Kimmy, I apologize if I've offended you in some way. It was not my intention.

I am guessing that you did not like my comment about forced fem being a fantasy for people who haven't the courage to face their own gender identity issues. I guess it was easy for me to say that, because when I started dressing it was because I WANTED to, not because someone forced me. Anyone with a "forced" feminization fantasy obviously wants to xdress, but is embarrassed and confused by their own desires. Rather than being humiliated by it, why not deal with it, and have fun with it? That's all i'm saying.

Or maybe you don't like the fact that I was able to live and pass as a woman, and decided that life was not for me. I can see where that might be a bit galling to someone who wants to live that life but cannot for whatever reason. All I can say is that I had fun with the gender lifestyle for a long time, but ultimately decided it was not for me. I did not say that you, or anyone else with gender issues were wrong. Quite the contrary, I've met plenty of pre- and post-op transsexuals where being on hormones and going through transition makes perfect sense. Many probably would have killed themself if they did not. Everyone has to find out for themself what is right for them. My answers are not your answers, or anyone elses.

I see that you do not live far from me. Have you gone to any Renaissance meetings? Ever been to New Hope? They are two good places to go where you can find other transgendered people. When I was first coming out I was able to find a good electrolysis through Renaissance, and the drag queens in New Hope were a great help just teaching me the basics.

Are you in counselling? I have no idea where you are with your gender issues, if it's just a sexual fetish for you, or if you really want to transition. If it's the latter, learn from my mistake and get into counselling before you start experimenting with hormones. I went to several horrible counsellors at the start of my transition. The first i ever met, a woman, told me that she didn't know how I could live like a man, and was willing to give me my SRS papers before I ever even opened my mouth - which I thought was fairly ridiculous. Most of the therapists i ever met were more screwed up than i was.

It's only been recently that I found an intelligent, unbiased, empathetic therapist. If you'd like her name & number, I'd be more than happy to pass it along to you. She's in Doylestown.

Be well,
Steve



lonewolf05 -> RE: forced feminization (7/3/2005 1:33:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

Whoa, Kimmy you are totally out of bounds!

I don't know what buttons that Steve has pushed for you, but from the posts I have read on another forum website I believe Steve's story.



i am not jumping on the bandwagon here. but i do not / have not/ see/ seen where steve has said anything really out of the way. but then? i am not this other person so maybe there is an issue here? all "I" know is steve has been nice to me personally, as has "burned".

k i'm done.
steve? take care bro. yo burned? you too dudes.



balletsissypa -> RE: forced feminization (7/3/2005 7:10:58 AM)

Chris , lonewolf and steve,
Chris i don't think i was out of bounds at all. His post started out calling those of us into the 'forced' thing 'uptight closet queens' with no balls. That was neither constructive nor was it needed to get his point across. You don't see that comment as possibly offensive? Steve, if you stated your issue more like you did in your response to my post, i would not have had a problem with that. i agree that the whole forced issue seems odd. Yes it mostly has to do with guilt. Guilt is part of it for me but not as much as when i was younger. Back then i used to cycle and purge where i would go through periods of hating myself for feeling like a girl and throw out all my stuff. It has been a long time since then and i have gotten over the guilty feeling fo rthe most part. Forced for me now is really rooted in two things, first of all when you are trying to live your life in both worlds it is easy to get lazy some times about changing/dressing/acting like a girl, in and out of clothes all the time just from being tired from work and the rest of the stresses of daily life and so that is part of it for me. Secondly, i just love bondage and domination and so being 'forced' to dress incorporates that for me as well. I know many for whom the forced thing is mostly about that. True i have also chatted with alot who are only into the dressing cause they want to suck a guys penis and being forced and also doing it 'as a girl' make it alright for them. Those aren't my issues, but if it works for them and helps them then thats fine with me. you could take 20 people into any particular fetish, kink or deviation and if you sat down and extensively question them, each one would have a slightly different twist on it.
i belive steves story about what has happened too him. i don't believe i ever said i didn't. Whether or not it is true doesn't give him the right to say mean things and also doesn't make him an expert on everyones particular twist on it. Everyone is different and everyones needs, wants desires and mental issues are too. No two situations are exactly alike. Yes, steve did push my buttons. It is a natural response to name calling. i think it is great that you could pass as a woman Steve. Until you brought up the whole jealousy thing it quite honestly never entered my mind. i can tell you that no, i am not mad or jealous that youy were able to pass as a woman and then decided not to anymore. i don't make a pretty girl. With some good dieting, laser hair removal and letting my hair grow long again, i could pass. i have naturally feminine legs and no visibal adams apple. My hands are not too manish for my height but i would definitely not make an atractive girl. People would wonder but not be sure and that is not for me. Also, i am a sensitive person and so have desire to have to go through all the crap that goes with coming out to family and friends. i am not looking for surgery or breasts although i fill out a b cup pretty well just naturally with no hormones and i have large nipples to match. go figure. i have done much sole searching and fantasy realization and have decided that living my rpivate life as femininely as possible is really where i am at. i have no desire to take it out in public. i have not been to a rennisaince meeting although i go to fetish events and clubs occasionally. i do know some Mistress and her friends that i dress around occasionally. I do get to new hope. There is a place la chateau that i go to for clothes and stuff. As for the pysch, i don't see one and have no deire to. Thanks you for the offer. I know a bunch just socially and that group has all said pretty much the same thing to me and that was that they got into it to try and figure out what was wrong with themselves. i don't know if that is a common thing, but that has been my experience. Also, i think it would be hard for them to fully understand it if they have never had the same feelings. It may have helped speed along my discovery process and i have learned alot over the years, but since i came to the conclusions myself without outside influence i am more confidant in their legitimancy.
Lonewolf, try reading the first sentence again. Are you into forced feminization? i can't tell cause when i click on your name it says no profile found. You may want to check into that. If you are into forced fem, then maybe you have thicker skin then i do, if you are not, then who are you to comment on whether or not being called a ball-less uptight closet queen is offensive to us or not. i am glad that you and chris have had nothing but good experiences with steve. that was not my case with my first encounter with him. Do you honestly not see that as name calling?
kimmy



LadyAngelika -> RE: forced feminization (7/3/2005 8:03:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx
I tell my friends I am a "recovering transsexual." I took hormones for 8 years (under a doctor's care).
[...]
Going back to being a man was just as hard as becoming a woman, but I am SO thankful that I went back.


Wow Steve. It seems like you went through an ordeal. I'm sure you learned a lot about yourself through it though.

I went though about 7 years of my life with the wrong sexual identity. I sometimes joke about being a "recovering lesbian". I am identify as bisexual—for lack of a better word— today. I am attracted to women but they aren’t the object of my desire. Also, I have come to realise that though I did love a woman once, I cannot love a woman the same way I know I can love a man.

quote:

He also advised me to see a shrink - which I never did. Well, not until much later. Which was a big mistake. I might have saved myself 5 years of electrolysis, and lots of other trials and tribulations if I'd found a good therapist right up front.


Maybe yes, maybe no. I went to see a highly recommended therapist when I came out as a lesbian at 20. That didn't change a thing because I was convinced this was me. The therapist actually helped me embrace my assumed sexual identity and told me that often, when lesbians still have sexual desire for men, that is because they were socialised to want this. Now that might be true, but in my case, it wasn't. So in fact, going to see a therapist reinforced my sexual identity choice.

- LA



onceburned -> RE: forced feminization (7/3/2005 10:07:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: balletsissypa
whether or not being called a ball-less uptight closet queen is offensive to us or not. i am glad that you and chris have had nothing but good experiences with steve. that was not my case with my first encounter with him. Do you honestly not see that as name calling?


Kimmy, I understand your anger. Yes, the "uptight closet queen" remark was uncalled for. I favor freedom of gender expression, in what ever form a person is comfortable. And the closet queen remark was hurtful.

I guess I wrote it off to the fact that Steve's brain is being attacked by testosterone after several years of blissful freedom from it. He is basically undergoing a second adolescence, and teenage guys sometimes spout off things they shouldn't.

I should have called him on that remark, and I am sorry that I didn't. We all make choices in our lives based upon our personal situation and values - its not a good idea to make blanket judgements about other people.



Euryanx -> RE: forced feminization (7/3/2005 10:41:11 AM)

Kimmy, I apologized, and I was sincere in what I said. Just as I hit one of your hot buttons, I guess the whole idea of "forced fem" is one of my hot buttons. From having lived that life for a long time, and being completely out about it, I didn't understand why some people felt like they had to be "forced" to do something that they obviously want in the first place. It all seems like a major head game to me. Too, I suppose the notion of being "humiliated" by wearing women's clothes is odd to me, when I wore them proudly.

That said, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your feelings on the subject. I can understand where you are coming from. And I can see where the whole thing can get tied up in the whole D/s scene for some people. Again, I apologize for my attitude. Admittedly, I started dressing when I was young, with the help of a Domme woman that I was involved with, but I went in an entirely different direction with it - for me it became a lifestyle. If I seem "cocky," all I can say is that you have to maintain a certain amount of attitude to live as a transsexual and take it to the streets. But you're right, there was no cause for me to be rude. Not everyone is in the same place when it comes to their attitudes about xdressing.

I can see some of your dilemmas... as far as going thru electrolysis and hormones, and then dealing with family issues. I went through all that, and it was not pretty. My friends accepted me, but my family NEVER accepted me. My transition nearly got me banished from my family. I used to push it every time i went to my parents house, wearing bigger earrings, women's slacks, a little makeup, etc... and my parents would freak out and make me wash my face or put my hair in a ponytail. Nor did it help that I was dating a black man during those years. My family is very religious and uptight, and I pushed their limits to the max. Not easy times, but I had watched a lot of my friends die of AIDS in the 1990's, and at the time I felt you only get one life to live, and I was going to live mine exactly how I chose.

One last comment... since I've been rude to you, I'll try to make up for it by offering you some help. I used to run a pretty active web site devoted to my own gender odyssey. I used to get 1000's of emails from people, many of them questions from xdressers, so i posted some "tips" articles on my web site. The site is now closed, but you can still access it by going to: http://www.steffiemor.com/index4.html

Check out some of the tips articles on things like makeup and style. They may offer some help. Or if you'd ever like to meet out in New Hope to chat, I am there often hanging out with my friends.

Take care,
Steve



kittencurious -> RE: forced feminization (7/6/2005 10:23:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx

Forced feminization is a a fantasy for uptight closet queens who haven't the balls to use their own free will and just experiment with their gender identity.

this is one of the most bigoted and asinine things i have ever read.
i can imagine the other terrible things you say about people who don't fit within your worldview.
if this forum ever has an ignore feature, you'll be first on my list.



onceburned -> RE: forced feminization (7/6/2005 10:50:42 PM)

quote:

f this forum ever has an ignore feature, you'll be first on my list.


It does. If you look at the lower left hand corner of each message you will see a red hand and the word "Block". Click that button and end your problems.

But before you do so, please remember that Steve has apologized for the remark. And perhaps you might want to consider that Steve has a relatively unique perspective based upon his life.



Omnesub -> RE: forced feminization (7/7/2005 12:34:19 AM)

Sorry for butting in…but the thread turned into an interesting subject that got me thinking.

I wonder what it is that is appealing about transgender.. I think the major mix up that causes so much confusion (and change) is not what is happening in reality…but in perception! Wanting others to perceive you as something they want… female? That’s where I think things get a little off track.

Basically we are all human…the difference in male and female are mostly (though not entirely) perception based. That is to say…in reality if you were to take a body walking down the street and compare them at a glance, the male and female are very close (some generalizations can be made to differences in the two...but that’s not the issue). Steve is a great example, while he was born male…he was still able to change how others perceived him and how he perceived himself (and that’s the entire idea behind it…and what proves it’s not a physical thing).

But…back to the reason for wanting to go from one gender to the other. The idea of transgender has crossed my mind…so maybe I can relate somewhat. Wanting to cross society’s standard for your gender…but like I said before, this is just perception… and most important, these standards aren’t really isolated to female anymore (the change of society’s perception as a whole over time).

Changing your appearance to exist as something “pretty” is typically feminine…but not female (big difference!). A man can be pretty without thinking himself female (seen a lot in art, Yaoi and other areas where the male is attractive/feminine…but still retains the clearly male persona)… though, that’s not the entire reason for wanting to be female.

Maybe its behavioral freedom (football players shouldn’t cry, while the cheerleader at the side is free to) …again these things aren’t really any difference in male/female (chemically and hormone perhaps, but in a case of a pure cosmetic transgender …it’s a mute point).

Really anything you can list here will come up the same… I can’t think of anything that transgender accomplishes other then the change in perception (a change that could be gotten without having to label yourself “female”).

It kind of sounds like I don’t agree with the reasons behind it? It’s not true! I think there is nothing wrong with wanting more feminine characteristics… just….I think in the end…I don’t quite understand the final jump to thinking of yourself as a female instead of a male with feminine characteristics. Transgender?... people are people…and they are of all types…there is no characteristic that “belongs” to a gender outside of societies perceptions (and those change with time).

In the end it comes down to a battle of semantics.. but it’s important because it’s the semantics of what you understand yourself to be. When Steve says “i realized i wasn't so much a woman, as a failed man” it becomes clear. How can you be a “failed man”? Who is telling you what a successful man is? Can’t you simply be…existing as you are? Perhaps it’s the pitfall of trying to label yourself in an attempt to understand who you are…and then trying to conform to that label you found. (Something seen in the BDSM world a lot…someone labeling themselves as submissive then trying to be a “good submissive” as others tell them they should. Instead of just being the way they are…)

Oh well, I will stop rambling now :) if someone could help shine some light on the finer points of this…or your views / understanding …I would be grateful.



MstrssPassion -> RE: forced feminization (7/7/2005 5:15:35 AM)

(disclaimer: I am not expert, but I consider myself to be fairly well informed. My partner is M2F transsexual & is very involved with speaking with support groups, universities & politicians on educating others about TG persons & working to change laws in support of all GLBT... also this is all right from my head to fingertips with only one cup of coffee [;)])

There have been several discussions expressing the various reasons for feminization. There are various levels of intensity also expressed within this thread.

But to stay on point of your question... what is appealing about being transgendered, to ask each case scenario you will receive a different answer.

First, transgendered is a politically correct word used to lump all of these various gender situations into one category. (which just confuses this all the more for persons trying to understand gender-identification)

As it has been discussed & primarily from the direction of M2F, some men dress femme for either reasons of guilt & humiliation or for pure pleasure. Very early on in this thread I spoke of how I wish the 'accepted terminology' was not forced, because I simply do not believe what we do within D/s is forced, it is or should be with consent. This segment of TG is also referred to CD or TV depending on the individuals level of intensity.

Transsexuals on the other hand, it is much more than just dressing a part & wanting to appear to be one sex over another. They tend to recognize their gender as being wrong from an early age. They struggle with their mental & emotional image of self all through life & depression, alcohol & drug abuse & sadly suicide is often a result of these internal struggles. Often the men will become hyper-male, Mr. Macho & attempt to conform themselves into being the best male they can be, extreme sports, military, facial hair, & so forth.

Omnesub mentions perception & attempts to pull all of the various form gender-identity into one classification & as I stated before, this only confuses people more. Though a cross dresser may enjoy having a temporary appearance of being femme, a transsexual lives every moment of their life with a deep internal image of being their target gender. They do not change their outer appearance in hopes to be pretty for others, they do so for self & often for survival.

MstrssPassion




kittencurious -> RE: forced feminization (7/7/2005 9:54:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned
It does. If you look at the lower left hand corner of each message you will see a red hand and the word "Block".

Many thanks.



Euryanx -> RE: forced feminization (7/7/2005 8:11:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnesub

Basically we are all human…the difference in male and female are mostly (though not entirely) perception based. That is to say…in reality if you were to take a body walking down the street and compare them at a glance, the male and female are very close (some generalizations can be made to differences in the two...but that’s not the issue). Steve is a great example, while he was born male…he was still able to change how others perceived him and how he perceived himself (and that’s the entire idea behind it…and what proves it’s not a physical thing).



Omnesub,

The differences between male/female are a lot more than perception based. The ARE quite physical.

Ever wonder why you have hair on your face and chest and a woman doesn't? Ever notice that a woman's skin is much softer? That her hips are broader? Ever happen to spot the two round globes on a woman's chest? ;-)

From having taken hormones for 8 years, trust me, the differences are a lot more than perception based. A woman's physical and chemical makeup is quite different from a man's. Ever wonder why some women are more emotional? Why some women can't give directions? It's all hormonal.

When I started taking hormones it was quite simply to grow breasts and speed up my electrolysis results. The affects where MUCH more powerful than i ever imagined. My skin, my pores, the texture of my hair, the thickness of my hair, my body hair, my emotions, my musculature, my cognitive reasoning, my body language, my libido... ALL changed drastically.

Ever wonder why men have a higher sex drive than women? It's all about testosterone. As a man, I want sex daily. I liken testosterone to nicotine. You've got this physical urge for sex/cigarettes. When I was in transition, the hormones that i took pumped estrogen into my body and blocked my testosterone. My sex drive when from 60 mph to 5 mph. Masturbation went from a daily routine to a bi-monthly routine.

The really nice thing about this... was that I was able to look at potential boyfriends as people first - not as sex partners. Whether they were good in bed, really wasn't at the top of my list. What mattered more was whether or not they were intelligent, a gentleman, funny, affectionate, etc... As a guy - sex was always high on my list. When I looked at a woman I looked at her as a potential sex partner. It's all about the testosterone.

Women have testosterone in their bodies too, but in lower levels. The testosterone in a man's body ranges from 250-1000. Women have it in a range of 10-75. When I was on hormones, my testosterone dropped to 24. As did my sex drive. Ever wonder why some people's drive is higer or lower than others? It's hormonal.

Just trying to point out that being a transsexual is a lot more than what's on the outside. It's all encompassing. The classic transsexual notion is that of being a "woman trapped in a man's body." You go through transition to make the outside match the inside.

Hope that sheds some additional light on gender issues.

S.



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