RE: forced feminization (Full Version)

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Omnesub -> RE: forced feminization (7/7/2005 9:16:41 PM)

Hehe, this is a tricky subject to address because so many generalizations are made. Does the hair on my body make me a man? If I were female with more facial hair…would that make me less of a woman? The shape of the body? Does a petite woman with no noticeable chest have less right to the title “female”? People come in all shapes and types…but these differences aren’t the main issue.

Would a woman that has a high sex drive be mislabeled and really be a “man in a woman’s body”? Or is it the emotional state? Is a highly emotional man…a failed man?

I don’t deny the fact that there ARE generalizations between male and female that can be made. Its just a fact that the body structure is typically different in one way or another….but like I said before, in the face of exceptions…these differences aren’t what make us label them male or female. The key to that title is where their reproductive organs are located …regardless of the other many details. A hairless, emotional, sex-drive-less, pretty, caring, big hipped human (with a penis) is male…

Why can’t that person just be as he is without trying to rediscover what he is…

He might look around and go down the list of the characteristics he has…and as a young person it would be confusing? Why does he have so many of these feminine characteristics? From there….he begins to doubt what he is…he tries to “diagnose” what he… somewhere he decides that he isn’t a “man” afterall…but a woman in a mans body! So…he tries to fit more into the role he has identified himself with…he changes his body and takes things to try and further fit himself into the definition he came up with.

That’s what I don’t understand… why can’t he just be a man with “feminine” characteristics? Like I said before…there are many different kinds of people…there is no set template for what a “man” should be (outside of that one key feature that the doctors see when you are born…where you are given the title “male” or “female”).

You can’t be a “failed man”….its impossible… no matter what someone may feel or the characteristics they have…they are simply human. Even if those characteristics are drastically different from the generalizations of our society…

A salmon that doesn’t swim up the rivers to reproduce with the rest of its kind isn’t a “failed salmon”…nothing can change the fact that it’s a salmon…its just different. It may look at itself and try to understand just what it is…it may think “I don’t swim like salmon or feel like they do…but I do behave a lot like these trout….maybe im a trout trapped in a salmons body!” It then paints itself the colors of a trout…and has his tail changed to look like a trouts…but nothing has really changed; only its own perception of itself (and, perhaps, others perception of it) .

Again…why? Why cant it simply be a salmon that shares some characteristics with trout?...

Hmm, maybe the reason is its society won’t let it simply be a salmon with trout characteristics. To be constantly looked down upon for not fitting the generalizations that he is seen with? Instead of being an oddity, outside of the norm, wouldn’t it simply be easier if he were born to fit the generalizations his characteristics dictate he is? I can understand that…why have your life be constantly bothered with people trying to tell you that what you are is wrong (and perhaps, some of you believing them) when all you want is to simply live as you are.

But, then again… it’s possible to live happily as anything (no matter how different it may seem) …because there are always others that share what make you different. Look at this community… the “vanilla” world isn’t a place where you can exist opening (most the time) …but among others with the same interests you can simply be as you are.

Oh, but on the other hand…finding others where you can “fit” as yourself is not always an easy thing! Depending on just how different that person may be… but…I guess I have gone off in a different direction…



balletsissypa -> RE: forced feminization (7/8/2005 6:40:01 AM)

Chris. Thanks for understanding.
kimmy



balletsissypa -> RE: forced feminization (7/8/2005 6:41:23 AM)

Steve,
apology accepted. Thank you for the link to your website. i will have to check itout.
kimmy



MstrssPassion -> RE: forced feminization (7/8/2005 8:13:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnesub



Why can’t that person just be as he is without trying to rediscover what he is…

He might look around and go down the list of the characteristics he has…and as a young person it would be confusing? Why does he have so many of these feminine characteristics? From there….he begins to doubt what he is…he tries to “diagnose” what he… somewhere he decides that he isn’t a “man” afterall…but a woman in a mans body! So…he tries to fit more into the role he has identified himself with…he changes his body and takes things to try and further fit himself into the definition he came up with.

That’s what I don’t understand… why can’t he just be a man with “feminine” characteristics? Like I said before…there are many different kinds of people…there is no set template for what a “man” should be (outside of that one key feature that the doctors see when you are born…where you are given the title “male” or “female”).

You can’t be a “failed man”….its impossible… no matter what someone may feel or the characteristics they have…they are simply human. Even if those characteristics are drastically different from the generalizations of our society…



Rediscover? Transsexuals basically do not discover themselves until they begin their transition. They attempt life by the standards in which society has conformed them to live. Taking steps to live their life as their target gender is where they truly begin to understand & discover themselves.

Why can't he (or she) just live with the characteristics, appearance & gender to which they were born?? As simple as it can be put... because no matter how natural it may be for you & others to comfortably live as the gender you are & are comfortable being... in their mind & soul they might as well go out into the world dressed in a chicken suit or a clown. They are forced to exist in a body that feels as ridiculous, depressing & as unnatural as being in some type of humiliating costume.

I have watched many transsexuals gain confidence & self-worth as they transitioned. True many go through losses of family & loved ones that, even careers because others do not chose to understand that they are basically correcting a birth defect. Even with losses such as this, a vast majority of transsexuals would tell you that they do regret their transition. Those I have known to either stop the process or even reverse it just were not at that very high level of intensity as the transsexuals that do follow it through or it is completely a financial impossibility. A small number of transsexuals also encounter medically related reasons why they are not able to transition, blood clots, high blood pressure, etc.



MstrssPassion



Omnesub -> RE: forced feminization (7/8/2005 2:52:40 PM)

Thanks for replying...i love talking about different subjects! I hope no one takes anything i say personally...I havent been introduced to many people in such a sittuation.

You say they aren’t comfortable living the gender that they were born… but the gender isn’t anything more then a word. It’s a starting point for the world to base their perceptions on. I’m not sure that the presence of the male appendage is so life altering in day to day living (other then hormonal).

They may very well be uncomfortable in their body (so many people are!) but if your shoulders are wide…or your build is a certain way…there just isn’t much you can do about it. No amount of wishing or self hate or surgery is going to change the body build you were born with (though, you can change a few more cosmetic things…the frame isn’t going anywhere). This again comes back into perceptions of yourself…. There is a certain point where you just have to look at yourself and say “well…this is what I have…better make the best of it”.

That’s the key point, in how you make the “best of it”. Like I said before…if your characteristics are feminine then embrace what you are and be what you are (there is nothing wrong with that). If you feel a need to look nicer, dress better, behave outside the “norm” of your gender… those things are simply a part of who you are and they cant be “wrong”.

But, then there is the issue of taking things to alter your characteristics… Hormone treatments, as was said before, would alter your sex drive and skin and many other points. The question is…is that really you? Or is that a you which you wish you could be? Perhaps both answers are fine… though the latter seems to be avoiding facing what you exist as and instead chasing after an ideal vision of what you wish you were. Hmm, something just doesn’t seem to fit with hormones…it’s the same situation as taking mind altering drugs…you change your “self” …the way you see things…your behavior…those things aren’t “you” those things are the drugs controlling you. (haha, but on the other hand…aren’t the hormones in your body already doing that? So wouldn’t taking the other hormone just be ‘leveling the playing field”)

You may exist each day with a high sex drive…and you may hate yourself for it…thinking its not “who you really are”… but isn’t that denying what you are? Its possible to take drugs to alter that behavior to something you see as “better” …but that new person you become isn’t anything but an illusion …a game… Then again, games are fun and lots can be learnt from them… as long as you see it for what it is. To live a year as a female isn’t something I would turn down …but…in the end I know that’s not who I am (even if I could fool myself into accepting that new self as me).

I think I have gone off track again…. Self discovery is a tricky situation…as you try and figure out just “who you are”, you look around at others in the world in hopes of finding similarities in yourself. While you may find an example that shares much of what you feel… while you look at that example…its hard not to accept qualities that aren’t “you”. Like the common example of psychology classes, where as you read the book and the disorders…you start to see bits and pieces of yourself in them…and you start to accept other symptoms in yourself, which really aren’t there.

It makes me wonder if this is what happens here…as a young person matures and tries to see who they are…they see the feminine qualities in themselves. Trying to “diagnose” those into a label…they manage to identify with the other gender. Hah, but then again…the world is very big on labels. If that person doesn’t identify themselves as female…chances are someone else will (over and over). Showing feminine qualities as a man opens you up to much ridicule (and female to male as well…as is the case with everything I say). Is it so uncommon to hear “stop acting like a girl?” ...anything said enough…will slowly chip away at someone until even they believe it. In a moment of weakness the seeds of doubt are planted ..and from there the doubt of who they are grows quickly.



Oh, then there is the possibility that transexuality is used to help enforce the mindset. Like a submissive being in chains to help enhance the feeling of being submissive (even when the chains aren’t even locked).Or maybe it’s not a matter of the self perceptions…but outside perceptions …females DO get treated differently.

It’s a big subject though; the answer is its many different things for many different people. But then again…that’s the case for most everything we do… :)



onceburned -> RE: forced feminization (7/8/2005 4:15:05 PM)

There are others here who can probably answer this better than me, but I will respond in the meantime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnesub
You say they aren’t comfortable living the gender that they were born… but the gender isn’t anything more then a word. It’s a starting point for the world to base their perceptions on. I’m not sure that the presence of the male appendage is so life altering in day to day living (other then hormonal).


Okay - You seem to be confusing gender and sex. Sex has to do with the physical body, gender is mental and psychological. Gender is more than a word - it has to do with how a person perceives the world (not the other way around).

quote:

No amount of wishing or self hate or surgery is going to change the body build you were born with (though, you can change a few more cosmetic things…the frame isn’t going anywhere).


"Self-hate" is a value-laden term. It is a charge that many would find offensive.

quote:

This again comes back into perceptions of yourself…. There is a certain point where you just have to look at yourself and say “well…this is what I have…better make the best of it”.


I think this is something transsexuals have to struggle with - how to make the best of an awful situation. Some commit suicide, some turn to drug and alcohol abuse, others attempt transition. Those who try to tough it out with their birth sex hope that they don't wind up killing themselves.

quote:

Like I said before…if your characteristics are feminine then embrace what you are and be what you are (there is nothing wrong with that). If you feel a need to look nicer, dress better, behave outside the “norm” of your gender… those things are simply a part of who you are and they cant be “wrong”.


Okay, now you are introducing the notions of feminine and masculine, which are different from sex or from gender. Feminine and masculine are cultural stereotypes of how male and female behave and think.

quote:

then there is the issue of taking things to alter your characteristics… Hormone treatments, as was said before, would alter your sex drive and skin and many other points. The question is…is that really you? Or is that a you which you wish you could be?


I think it is both. Taking estrogen or testosterone when your body doesn't produce it is an extreme thing. Its not something to do lightly. But it is the only treatment which has been shown to help reduce the disjunction between a transsexual's body and mind.

quote:

instead chasing after an ideal vision of what you wish you were.


That is another value-laden phrase. I don't think transsexuals are chasing after some ideal, some pie-in-the-sky dream. Rather, they are simply attempting to survive. Its basic quality of life vs non-life.

quote:

To live a year as a female isn’t something I would turn down …but…in the end I know that’s not who I am (even if I could fool myself into accepting that new self as me).


Then this all just a game to you.

quote:

It makes me wonder if this is what happens here…as a young person matures and tries to see who they are…they see the feminine qualities in themselves. Trying to “diagnose” those into a label…they manage to identify with the other gender.


If a person believes they are transsexual they should get professional gender counselling to help them sort through their beliefs, attitudes, perceptions etc. You may be unaware, but there are standards of care for the treatment of transsexuality.





msstephanysbitch -> RE: froced feminzation (7/8/2005 5:00:25 PM)

My Mistress really enjoys glueing silicone boobs on me with the strongest glue she can find. but she has 3 different sizes she likes to use depending on her mood. I honestly dont think its really a good idea to have real ones done as then it becomes another part i cant hide but also wont give me away when she makes me pleasure men for her fun. She says its finding out a way to give a man what he wants without him finding out im not a real woman that is the fun she injoys.



FelinePersuasion -> RE: froced feminzation (7/8/2005 6:14:49 PM)

That's really not consentual then. If the men think you're a woman and you're not.



onceburned -> RE: froced feminzation (7/8/2005 6:37:08 PM)

quote:

She says its finding out a way to give a man what he wants without him finding out im not a real woman that is the fun she injoys.


Not only is this nonconsentual but it is also a way to get yourself badly beaten or killed.



Omnesub -> RE: forced feminization (7/8/2005 6:51:37 PM)

From what I understand, the situation with transsexuals is a case where they are trying to match their “gender” with their “sex”? I understand the semantics of the words…but the question that comes to me is…why are some gender characteristics (behavioral and mental) linked with one sex or gender over the other? It’s the basis for all the confusion…why can’t you simply be the sex you are with the characteristics you have?

If someone were to tell me that the way I think and the way I feel are nothing like what human “should” be…and then go on to tell me that the way I think and feel match a horse, I’m not so sure that would mean I was meant to be a horse! I am what I am…a human that feels and thinks like a horse… its not an opinion, it just is.

But that situation would be confusing…and perhaps when they told me these things…perhaps I believed that they were right and I really was a horse! Then to go after that which I think I “should” be …instead of what I am… it seems a lot of trouble…the question comes up again…why can’t I just be what I am? A human that shares some characteristics with a horse (or in the case of a transsexual, a male that shares the characteristics with a female).

After all, like you said…gender is perception based. The trick is getting past the perceptions you grow with (characteristic A is gender A is sex A) …if not…then when the characteristic doesn’t match the typical assigned gender or sex…it can be VERY confusing!

Maybe just simplifying the equation a bit… characteristic A is characteristic A…and sex A is sex A … or, you are what you are. (gender is not an issue, because its simply based on societies perception…it’s a labeling of your characteristics to the generalizations made between the characteristics of the sexes)

When you say that feminine and masculine and gender are not connected…I’m not sure if that’s true. They are all closely related…and all based on the generalizations between the sexes. (a human of the female sex generally has female gender and feminine characteristics….though, that’s a little misleading in that a LARGE percent of the population doesn’t fit so nicely into such an equation)

People are very different … the thinking that sex A belongs to characteristic A is only damaging and holds back the acceptance of those that differ from the norms.

quote:

I don't think transsexuals are chasing after some ideal, some pie-in-the-sky dream.”


I am starting to think that they are chasing after “something” like that…they are chasing after the societal stereotypes that they have grown with…trying to fit within the system (and maybe that makes them guilty of perpetuating the stereotypes to some degree).

quote:

“Rather, they are simply attempting to survive.”


This is also true! The world is real…and not everyone will be so ready to accept a man with the characteristics of a female. To simply “become” a female to match the characteristics you have…is a much easier path then to try and be something that will generally not be accepted in your lifetime. In a perfect world maybe…but the world is far from perfect.

When I mentioned self-hate …it wasn’t meant as an insult. It’s just reasonable to think that “some” facing the situation would feel that at one time or another. It’s only natural to question yourself and hate what you are for not being “normal”…hopefully such thinking doesn’t last and they work past that point…accepting that people are different and that is just part of how things are.

The reference to it being a game… in a way it is. It’s a game of balancing who you are (or at least what others see) to fit within the world we live. I don’t use the word to trivialize the seriousness of the issue… It’s a sad thing that people can’t be honest with the whole of society because of the differences they might have.



onceburned -> RE: forced feminization (7/9/2005 4:12:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnesub
From what I understand, the situation with transsexuals is a case where they are trying to match their “gender” with their “sex”?


Yes.

quote:

I understand the semantics of the words…but the question that comes to me is…why are some gender characteristics (behavioral and mental) linked with one sex or gender over the other? It’s the basis for all the confusion…why can’t you simply be the sex you are with the characteristics you have?


Because gender is not about being masculine or feminine. It is about being who you are. As I understand it, for transsexuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. Its not about characteristics but about identity.

quote:

If someone were to tell me that the way I think and the way I feel are nothing like what human “should” be…and then go on to tell me that the way I think and feel match a horse, I’m not so sure that would mean I was meant to be a horse! I am what I am


Yes, no one should tell you what you feel. Or attempt to impose their standards upon you. (And comparing a known medical condition such as transsexuality and a hypothetical animal identity is misleading, so you might want to drop that analogy.)

quote:

After all, like you said…gender is perception based.


Actually, I didn't say that. In fact the opposite is true. Gender precedes perception, it is not based on perceptions.

quote:

The trick is getting past the perceptions you grow with (characteristic A is gender A is sex A) …if not…then when the characteristic doesn’t match the typical assigned gender or sex…it can be VERY confusing!


When you talk of gender characteristics I think you are referrring to masculine/feminine standards rather than referring to gender itself.

quote:

When you say that feminine and masculine and gender are not connected…I’m not sure if that’s true. They are all closely related…and all based on the generalizations between the sexes. (a human of the female sex generally has female gender and feminine characteristics….though, that’s a little misleading in that a LARGE percent of the population doesn’t fit so nicely into such an equation)


Yes, the cultural ideas of feminine and masculine are stereotypes based upon generalizations about male and female.

quote:

People are very different … the thinking that sex A belongs to characteristic A is only damaging and holds back the acceptance of those that differ from the norms.


I agree! [:)]

quote:

The world is real…and not everyone will be so ready to accept a man with the characteristics of a female. To simply “become” a female to match the characteristics you have…is a much easier path then to try and be something that will generally not be accepted in your lifetime.


I think this is a matter that each individual has to evaluate for themself. But certainly you raise a valid concern that a transsexual needs to weigh. The whole point of transition is to raise the quality of a transsexual's life - so that person needs to carefully assess what is easiest for them to endure. (I think you are missing out on how intolerable transsexuality can be - its not simply a lifestyle choice.)

quote:

It’s a game of balancing who you are (or at least what others see) to fit within the world we live. I don’t use the word to trivialize the seriousness of the issue… It’s a sad thing that people can’t be honest with the whole of society because of the differences they might have.


Again, I think we are in agreement! [:)]



78787878 -> RE: forced feminization (7/12/2005 12:52:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowsdream

or is it "hopeful" and needing "encouragement?"


"hopeful" and needing "encouragement?", I beleive I agree with these terms.



Euryanx -> RE: forced feminization (7/12/2005 8:09:52 PM)

chris,

Great answers!

You really have a lot of patience. Personally I gave up on this thread... it was starting to make my head hurt! (and i mean the big head, not the little one - so it was not any fun!)

S.



onceburned -> RE: forced feminization (7/12/2005 11:11:21 PM)

Thanks S.! I give up on threads all the time, for the same reason. [:)]



RosaB -> RE: forced feminization (7/13/2005 8:53:50 AM)

I don't have much to offer to this thread. I just wanted to say it has been great reading the written exchanges. This has been the most intelligent of dialogs I've seen on these boards yet. Probably why I have nothing to offer. LOL. Nice to see there are those that can exchange ideas without continuosly, (continuosly being the operative word), attacking one another. Cuddos to you all.

Rosa



imtempting -> RE: forced feminization (7/13/2005 10:00:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RosaB

I don't have much to offer to this thread. I just wanted to say it has been great reading the written exchanges. This has been the most intelligent of dialogs I've seen on these boards yet. Probably why I have nothing to offer. LOL. Nice to see there are those that can exchange ideas without continuosly, (continuosly being the operative word), attacking one another. Cuddos to you all.

Rosa


Its called Flaming ( showing my geeky ways) Its ok your a n00b.

Being made to dress like a female is humilating but I guess people would of said it already.



Softropes4me -> RE: froced feminzation (7/13/2005 10:31:11 AM)

well one could find a person like me who is both sexes from birth and well then they dont have to do anything but domme them



MstrssPassion -> RE: froced feminzation (7/13/2005 5:03:21 PM)

The topic of intersexed came up as well.

MP



msstephanysbitch -> RE: froced feminzation (7/13/2005 5:32:47 PM)

At around 5000,00 a set just how many mistresses have that kind of money to blow



YoungAsianCutie -> RE: forced feminization (5/27/2006 4:47:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx


Ever wonder why men have a higher sex drive than women? It's all about testosterone. As a man, I want sex daily. I liken testosterone to nicotine. You've got this physical urge for sex/cigarettes. When I was in transition, the hormones that i took pumped estrogen into my body and blocked my testosterone. My sex drive when from 60 mph to 5 mph. Masturbation went from a daily routine to a bi-monthly routine.

The really nice thing about this... was that I was able to look at potential boyfriends as people first - not as sex partners. Whether they were good in bed, really wasn't at the top of my list. What mattered more was whether or not they were intelligent, a gentleman, funny, affectionate, etc... As a guy - sex was always high on my list. When I looked at a woman I looked at her as a potential sex partner. It's all about the testosterone.



So, what does that mean when I look at potential girlfriends and see them as people first - not sex partners, and wondering what kind of person they were and how it would be like to spend time with them?

Also in response to a previous post, not all people like "forced fem" for humuliation because I don't like for example the tv-ers that like the Mommy types.

Euranyx, I wish you were still here because I have a whole ton of questions for you. Like, what are the difficulties in transitioning back from a woman to a man?



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