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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 10:16:23 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		OK, I'm not going to get into a flame war. If that really works for you, enjoy.

We're still left with the problem that marriage is neither a covenant nor a contract. (Please find out the legal definitions of "covenant" and "contract" before you respond.) Oh, and the other problem: that whatever you think the Bible might say about homosexuals has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether homosexuals should be allowed to marry in this country.

Lam

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 10:43:26 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I know exactly what a contract and covenant are, and I stand by My earlier statement.

As for homosexuals being allowed to marry. First W/we ascertain the fact that the institution of marriage existed long before the State tried to take control of it and redefine it. Realistically, they should not even be involved in marriages, so actually they do not have the power to redefine it. It is not their institution to do that with. So, W/we need to look at who SHOULD be defining marriages. Is it the church? No. The church should have nothing to do with it either. They have just managed to create a ceremony rich in paganistic traditions. Marriage as we know it is not even scripted nor mandated in the Bible. Who then? Well, the only person left is God and the couple. However, how do W/we know that God is interested in entering into the covenant, making it valid? W/we follow Biblical text, which is the only living testament of God's Word. It makes it very clear in there what His position is.

Ok. So. There is the problem of civil unions. As far as I am concerned, the State should just keep their mitts out of it altogether and allow couples to live together common-law at their discretion, applying Family Law to them in the event of a dissolution or a disagreement. Let God sort them out. It is not for the State to mandate or judge. The Bible clearly defines how to conduct one's relationships when it comes to seperation. God will be the final judge.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 11:04:27 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Sorry, you obviously DON'T know the legal meanings of "contract" and "covenant." There is a Biblical sense of the word "covenant," but it's not used in law.

Second, I find it pretty stunning that you think God should define marriage in the United States of America (and less stunning that you see the Bible as a usable indication of God's intent--since I can't pretend to be unfamiliar with that line).

Anyway, all kinds of things "existed" long before the state; that doesn't mean the state doesn't have a legitimate interest in regulating them. Crime existed before the state--does that mean the state doesn't have the authority to prosecute crimes? By your argument, God should define ALL law. And that means you think we should live in a theocracy.

You're free to hold your own opinions, but you can't be too surprised if you find that most sane people disagree with you.

Lam

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 11:32:19 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I do not think that a total theocracy is the order of the day either. I believe that a State that puts God's rule first, man's rule second is the way to go. There are plenty of places for man to implement their own Laws of the land, but ordaining the institution of marriage is not one of them.

As far as what a covenant and a contract are, explain to Me, understanding what the differences are, whether or not Law states it to be one or the other, how marriage can be construed as anything BUT a covenant according to the Law (in particular divorce Law), the dictionary and/or the Bible.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 11:46:36 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do not think that a total theocracy is the order of the day either. I believe that a State that puts God's rule first, man's rule second is the way to go.



I reiterate.

WHICH GOD?

Why does the Christian god get precident over all those other nifty ones? As far as I know, there are -many- dieties and diety systems that have been around just as long as the judeo/christian/islamic one. Why does it suddenly get precident?

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 1:37:58 AM   
MadameDahlia


Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline 		Since everyone and their dog is chiming in I figure why not add more fuel... whilst hoping this won't become some sort of war.

I think that any "higher power" that may be out there... somewhere... is probably intelligent enough to judge a person by looking at the person as a whole.

Does the person say one thing but always do another?
Does the person condemn the actions of another while doing something just as "bad" as the one he/she has condemned?
Does the person treat others with the respect that he/she would want in return?
Does the person turn the other cheek a time or two, but protect his/her family and friends?

I think that as long as a person lives his or her life as well as possible any higher power that might exist would see beyond anything we could consider a "sin". If there is a force out there who is benevolent and has an afterlife or a rebirth in store for us I think that they'd rise above our standards and our (sometimes) warped views on morality.

To each his/her own... and if there is pain involved it must be consensual. Otherwise I think anything someone wants to do should be fair game.

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 4:17:31 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'm not the one who's looking for a bi-female but believes homosexuals are going to fry in hell.


Only those practicing the act My friend and not turning T/their backs on it and choosing to live a life of celibacy instead... Like I said, you should have asked. It is a little late now.

However, even if T/they are practicing the act on an ongoing basis, I refuse to turn My backs on T/them and not be T/their friends. Like I said, I happen to like homosexuals. There are qualities about them that I really admire.


You know Kenin, you're really something else.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 4:20:02 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

It does not have to. How is that any of your concern? How is it A/anyone's concern here? It is not. T/they merely tried to play it as T/their Ace up the sleeve and it failed, rather T/they acted too soon and made complete fools out of T/themselves by not asking what it was that made Me desire to seek out a bi-sexual woman.


I didn't make a fool out myself Kenin. That is your perception of things and like everything else you have expressed throughout this post, completly off-kilter.

But there is no point in trying to show you any of this because you refuse to hear what others are telling you.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 4:22:19 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do not think that a total theocracy is the order of the day either. I believe that a State that puts God's rule first, man's rule second is the way to go. There are plenty of places for man to implement their own Laws of the land, but ordaining the institution of marriage is not one of them.


Well thank God! (pun oh so totally intended) that you aren't making the laws here in Canada! Because here, our laws do trump the laws of God. Because everyone's God has different laws.

In any case, the Canadian people would never stand for such intolerance.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 6:35:44 AM   
MadameDahlia


Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline 		Whoo hoo I'm moving to Canada!



_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 6:47:44 AM   
DemonAngel


Posts: 36
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		I am not even going to to get into the bifemale debate because its probably something about the ability to make'em straight;)
Anyway, i am gonna take issue on the pot calling the kettle black.Ya can't say that God dislikes homosexual practices and then act like your saint.Thats total hypocrasy.>kinkysex at any time < alone by the definitions you have given(which is wrong by biblical standards, i would recommend a bit of study kenin)is a sin.so your a sinner, your audacity to deny your self pronounced sin wont save you even if you believe in Jesus and that he died for you, dont you see that?And thats using you analagy, not no one elses.So basically what i am saying is that as you see it,your sin isn't any less than that of a homosexual in the eyes of God.So get off your bandwagon and make good with your God before you condem others.
d informed me i might be seen as flaming.well, i apologise to the good people here and the poster SHIFTEDJEWEL for kind of hijaking the thread.But i don't like double standards and the imposing of ideas on people.i am trying to focus on the original post by saying again that if a relationship is loving and that people want to marry then they should be allowed the same rights whether hetro,gay or lesbian.
Demon

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 8:21:18 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do not think that a total theocracy is the order of the day either. I believe that a State that puts God's rule first, man's rule second is the way to go.



I reiterate.

WHICH GOD?

Why does the Christian god get precident over all those other nifty ones? As far as I know, there are -many- dieties and diety systems that have been around just as long as the judeo/christian/islamic one. Why does it suddenly get precident?


Well, tough question really. I guess you would first have to decide which are false gods and which is the true God. That might not be such an easy task for some.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 8:27:32 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonAngel

I am not even going to to get into the bifemale debate because its probably something about the ability to make'em straight;)
Anyway, i am gonna take issue on the pot calling the kettle black.Ya can't say that God dislikes homosexual practices and then act like your saint.Thats total hypocrasy.>kinkysex at any time < alone by the definitions you have given(which is wrong by biblical standards, i would recommend a bit of study kenin)is a sin.so your a sinner, your audacity to deny your self pronounced sin wont save you even if you believe in Jesus and that he died for you, dont you see that?And thats using you analagy, not no one elses.So basically what i am saying is that as you see it,your sin isn't any less than that of a homosexual in the eyes of God.So get off your bandwagon and make good with your God before you condem others.
d informed me i might be seen as flaming.well, i apologise to the good people here and the poster SHIFTEDJEWEL for kind of hijaking the thread.But i don't like double standards and the imposing of ideas on people.i am trying to focus on the original post by saying again that if a relationship is loving and that people want to marry then they should be allowed the same rights whether hetro,gay or lesbian.
Demon



I do not look at all kinky sex as being sin actually. How do you come to that conclusion? Homosexual sex maybe. Bi-sexual sex maybe. Kinky sex, no. Besides, I am not perfect. I sin all the time. However, I am not judging anyone to hell. Merely reiterating what it states in the Bible. Myself, I am content to live and let live and let God sort the whole mess out. As long as they keep it in the bedroom, it is not really My problem. When asked, I will merely reiterate My position.

I do see trying to redefine an age old institution as being a problem however.


_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to DemonAngel)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 8:28:37 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do not think that a total theocracy is the order of the day either. I believe that a State that puts God's rule first, man's rule second is the way to go. There are plenty of places for man to implement their own Laws of the land, but ordaining the institution of marriage is not one of them.


Well thank God! (pun oh so totally intended) that you aren't making the laws here in Canada! Because here, our laws do trump the laws of God. Because everyone's God has different laws.

In any case, the Canadian people would never stand for such intolerance.

- LA



O/our Law does not trump God's Law. It never has, it never will. W/we like to THINK it does, and act as though it does, but W/we will see who has the last laugh.

Also, You can not apply the label of intolerance, either. Nice try, but never go flinging labels around Me. I tolerate them just fine. I get along with them just nicely. I do not accept the idea of trying to redefine institutions to suit O/our perversions, any more than I justify creating new Laws to justify My kink. I believe that what Y/you want to do is between Y/you and God. If Y/you feel justified doing it, keep it in the bedroom. Hetero-, homo- or bi-sexual or kinky sex. It does not matter.


< Message edited by SirKenin -- 5/31/2005 8:34:26 AM >

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 8:30:45 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

It does not have to. How is that any of your concern? How is it A/anyone's concern here? It is not. T/they merely tried to play it as T/their Ace up the sleeve and it failed, rather T/they acted too soon and made complete fools out of T/themselves by not asking what it was that made Me desire to seek out a bi-sexual woman.


I didn't make a fool out myself Kenin. That is your perception of things and like everything else you have expressed throughout this post, completly off-kilter.

But there is no point in trying to show you any of this because you refuse to hear what others are telling you.

- LA


There is nothing to show. You jumped to conclusions before ascertaining the facts and made a fool out of Yourself. It would have been much easier for You to ask WHY it was that I was seeking a bi-sexual woman first, before You jumped to conclusions and stuck Your foot in your mouth.

Of course there is nothing to show Me, there is nothing left to say except OOOPS, and far be it from You to admit that You were mistaken. Pride will not let You do that.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 8:32:19 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

O/our Law does not trump God's Law. It never has, it never will. W/we like to THINK it does, and act as though it does, but W/we will see who has the last laugh.


Considering I don't believe in the god you're likely referring to, this obviously is fairly meaningless to me.

I'm not really understanding why it matters what a religious group thinks when it comes to legal rights? Have we grown nowhere in the past hundreds of years?

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 8:36:41 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

O/our Law does not trump God's Law. It never has, it never will. W/we like to THINK it does, and act as though it does, but W/we will see who has the last laugh.


Considering I don't believe in the god you're likely referring to, this obviously is fairly meaningless to me.

I'm not really understanding why it matters what a religious group thinks when it comes to legal rights? Have we grown nowhere in the past hundreds of years?


Oh, W/we've gone somewhere in the past hundreds of years alright, and looking all around U/us in every day life, in the newspapers, on TV, in magazines W/we can easily ascertain beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is anywhere but up.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 9:22:20 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think ignoring what any and every religion has to say about any of it is a great first step to going up.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 9:24:37 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

I think ignoring what any and every religion has to say about any of it is a great first step to going up.


Really? In what way has ignoring God proven a benefit to O/our respective countries, or any country in the last 4000 years for that matter? Can you provide Me with case history?

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 9:57:22 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Well people used to say that it was the christian gods mandate that blacks were meant to be slaves. I'm sure there are still people today who believe that god thinks that non-whites are inferior to whites. They use their bibles to justify it.

I think ignoring that particular set of beliefs was a good step.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 160
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