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RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 10:26:33 AM

sambamanslilgirl

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From: Chicago, IL
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i'm a submissive ...actually more like a "spoiled" daughter-submissive if you had the chance to peek inside my jewelry box - collars, anklets, silver bracelet ...or my closet - lingerie and shoes, etc. all given with love from Daddy. He feels it's not wrong to spoil His daughter with gifts every month and i do appreciate each one i receive. "it's Daddy's job to show His daughter how much He loves and adores her" - He always tell me

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...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

(in reply to bottomwildchild)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 10:42:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigerNINTails
But not one person understood, or even identified that most of the perception seems to be in the structure of the sentence, leaving a rather distasteful "implication" where there most likely isn't one.

I think it's because the setence was spoken- and then transcribed to us. Anyone who suggests that they can trust a new poster to grammatically and tonally interpret a spoken statement in such a way that other posters can reasonably and accurately base interpretations of meaning on the structure of the sentence itself is silly.

quote:

It's her reference also to "but i'm also his love..." This "but" right here, indicates that what comes next is either the truth of the matter and all that came before it is a lie, or...

It indicates that there is a negative connotation to what follows. The word "but" is a negative in our language. This is where the confusion starts, that period is where it compounds.

OR that she's adding new information to the whole picture which in some levels might seem contradictory, but are actually not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic
Of more interest to me is "why" there is the apparent need to continue guessing what her intent was for seven pages now? What is the psychology behind this continuing guessing game? Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Most of the thread hasn't been trying to guess what she means- actually I think what started this was a few people making a fairly negative guess at interpreting what was said.

Then a bunch of "There's no way you can say it's that negative interpretation any more than these positive or nuetral interpretations"

Then somehow it became a "Slaves do X, it's unslavely to do Y" true slaves sort of debate.

The actual guessing and application of meaning started and stopped with the few negative interpretations.

I'm curious to why a few people went for the negative interpretation being likely. It does seem to reinforce the notion that people equate sacrifice with submission, and spoiling is looked down upon. This notion could easily spread from interpretation to 'fact" to social rule. Happens all the time.

But we've all given loads of interpretations in our lives- mostly based on past experience and some intuitive mixing. Sometimes we're dead on, sometimes we're not.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to TigerNINTails)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 11:06:53 AM

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From: Connecticut
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Using fast reply since I'm pretty surprised that the thread continues.....

1. I don't think I, nor my owner (I can't speak for anyone else who had similar views) said anything about true slaves (or ringing some "she's not a true real slave" alarm) and I think its very telling about peoples individual "tapes" (to use a Dr. Philism) that defending ones subliness and this issue of true slaves has become a focal point for the last couple of pages.

2. I don't know if people that keep on directly responding to things that he (my owner, Evlgryn) said noticed that he said he wasn't actually participating in the thread. If you are actually interested in clarification, there's always email.

C~

Edited for grammatical issues.

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 6/12/2007 11:07:42 AM >

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 11:45:04 AM

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
Using fast reply since I'm pretty surprised that the thread continues.....
I'm not sure why there's such surprise that the discussion here is still continuing. As with most threads, it's really not so much about the original post anymore as it is ideas that have been expressed along the way. Happens everyday on here.
1. I don't think I, nor my owner (I can't speak for anyone else who had similar views) said anything about true slaves (or ringing some "she's not a true real slave" alarm) and I think its very telling about peoples individual "tapes" (to use a Dr. Philism) that defending ones subliness and this issue of true slaves has become a focal point for the last couple of pages.
The only reason I "defended" anything is because it was brought into question. My definition of my status and my relationship was dismissed as "insanity" and "twinspeak." Kinda put me a bit on the defensive, ya know? And I think it's "very telling" when people latch on to their own definitions so tightly that they are then used to attempt to PUT other people on the defensive. I don't care what anyone defines or classifies my relationship as personally. But to come here on a public forum and basically dismiss another's status as "slave" because it doesn't fit some narrow definition tells me alot too. Dr. Phil's observations go both ways
2. I don't know if people that keep on directly responding to things that he (my owner, Evlgryn) said noticed that he said he wasn't actually participating in the thread. If you are actually interested in clarification, there's always email.
Yeah, I noticed that when he made his last statement and then announced he was leaving before anyone else had responded. I was not aware that it was against etiquette here to continue a thread once someone who had participated in it had gone. He didn't start it, he joined in mid-way, he said his piece, announced he was leaving, and he did. Again, happens all the time. As on all the threads here, people still continue to respond to previous posts. There's nothing going on any differently here than on most threads, most days. It's nothing personal. As for clarification, he made himself clear before he left and then I made myself clear right behind him. No email communication necessary........slave luci

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(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 12:46:36 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

Using fast reply since I'm pretty surprised that the thread continues.....

1. I don't think I, nor my owner (I can't speak for anyone else who had similar views) said anything about true slaves (or ringing some "she's not a true real slave" alarm) and I think its very telling about peoples individual "tapes" (to use a Dr. Philism) that defending ones subliness and this issue of true slaves has become a focal point for the last couple of pages.

2. I don't know if people that keep on directly responding to things that he (my owner, Evlgryn) said noticed that he said he wasn't actually participating in the thread. If you are actually interested in clarification, there's always email.

C~

Edited for grammatical issues.

You did say

quote:

"This is more for clarification than anything else and is really a fairly small thing, but I don't think you read what I said clearly (in that quoted sentence). I was saying that you, just like me, are deciding whether it does or does not resemble slavery. You are deciding that it does resemble slavery. I'm deciding it doesn't. The only difference is that we disagree, but we are both making decisions and judgement and running them through our filters and all that jazz."

I replied that the defining quality of slavery is ownership(though not directly to that post). You can disagree with that, as you obviously do, no hurt, no foul. I did ask for claification on why that is but whatever, honestly it was just a curiousity. Perhaps you were only speaking about one small aspect...being humble...but I read it as a view of the whole dynamic. I apologize if I was wrong. I went off someone elses post and had only briefly read the other responses so I made have taken what you said out of context.

This was a really good topic. I'm suprised it did not take off even more. I think LA said it best:

"I'm curious to why a few people went for the negative interpretation being likely. It does seem to reinforce the notion that people equate sacrifice with submission, and spoiling is looked down upon. This notion could easily spread from interpretation to 'fact" to social rule. Happens all the time".

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 6/12/2007 12:49:00 PM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 1:27:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

You did say

quote:

"This is more for clarification than anything else and is really a fairly small thing, but I don't think you read what I said clearly (in that quoted sentence). I was saying that you, just like me, are deciding whether it does or does not resemble slavery. You are deciding that it does resemble slavery. I'm deciding it doesn't. The only difference is that we disagree, but we are both making decisions and judgement and running them through our filters and all that jazz."

I replied that the defining quality of slavery is ownership(though not directly to that post). You can disagree with that, as you obviously do, no hurt, no foul. I did ask for claification on why that is but whatever, honestly it was just a curiousity. Perhaps you were only speaking about one small aspect...being humble...but I read it as a view of the whole dynamic. I apologize if I was wrong. I went off someone elses post and had only briefly read the other responses so I made have taken what you said out of context.

This was a really good topic. I'm suprised it did not take off even more. I think LA said it best:

"I'm curious to why a few people went for the negative interpretation being likely. It does seem to reinforce the notion that people equate sacrifice with submission, and spoiling is looked down upon. This notion could easily spread from interpretation to 'fact" to social rule. Happens all the time".

I didn't see that you had directly asked me a question, otherwise I would have responded.

Yes, I did say that quote however I do think that you have to go back to the preceeding post with luci to see what I meant by using the term resembling. In that post I said:

quote:

To me the specific words that were said were agressive and threatening because if someone says, if I'm not happy he's not happy that sounds more like a nagging wife that will make her husbands life hell for doing something wrong than anything resembling slavery. Again just my opinion on that specific quote the OP provided.

Somehow you are reading me to use the word resembling to mean defining point. But I really just meant the word resembling.

When I was talking about whether that quote resembled slavery was a reference to when I said that the quote sounded more like something I'd hear from a nagging wife, "If I'm not happy, my husband will NOT be happy.". Just to be clear I did not mean that she was not a slave just because of that quote (I don't think one random quote is what I would use as a yardstick), in fact I said several times that I could be wrong and it could be other things (like a misquote, a joke, or a very particular context), but what I did say is that the quote did not sound like something that resembles slavery or enslavement. What does the quote resemble to me? a nagging wife.

To me, the discussion of what the quote resembled is a very different discussion on what defines slavery and what are the main components or identifiers. Of course my concept on what resembles slavery is based off my personal definition of slave, but given that I never even said what my personal definition of slave was, this issue of "was the quote a defining point of slavery and thus is she a slave" wasn't remotely what I was discussing.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 1:34:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Hello MagiksSlave, I have to admit I am one of those people you are speaking about.
After reading this thread and giving it a lot of thought, I am coming around and opening my mind
to what you and many others have been saying.

I did take that statement to mean the slave was manipulative and I did not see it any other way.
BUT, if she is saying that in sincerity and not being manipulative than I totally understand!
Most Dominants want their slaves happy, because unhappy slaves may not stick around for long!
I just don't like the way she said it, the intent sounds like pure manipulation.
Again, we tend to interpret things differently, but I basically agree with what you are saying!

Again Ill say this, this is a quote taken by the OP out of context from the conversation it was said it, there can be no inflextion here as well so we have no idea what the motive behind the quote was, we dont even know the person who said it as she wasnt the one that posted it. Yet everyone is so quick to jump to a negative conclution, what ever happend to giveing the benafit of the doubt???

All I know is when we post here we are asking for peoples opinions on us and or our relationships by the fact that we posted it here. That is consent for what ever negative feedback we may get. She didnt post here she didnt ask her relationship to be critisized she didnt even consent to someone els posting about her relationship, so there for she didnt ask for advise or anything and yet people still insist on putting her down. I just think it is totaly wrong!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

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(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 1:39:49 PM

Aswad

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Directed at nobody in particular...

quote:

and i kindly told him i was feeling a little perplexed and needed answers so He pointed me this way.

I suspect his idea was that this would be a good place to get different perspectives on things.

See the variation in how people do things, and what makes them happy.

It's one thing to know that people do things differently, another to understand it. And I would guess he thought hanging out here could contribute to the latter. Which isn't such a bad idea, although it might not neccessarily turn out to work.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to bottomwildchild)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 1:57:29 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

Evlgryn, i could hug you for making this post. what's the heathen equivalent to "amen"?

Depends on the heathen.

Neo-pagans usually say something along the lines of "So mote it be".

That's roughly equivalent to "אָמֵן" (amen), which means "so be it".

And I heartily agree; what one uses as a term of endearment is one thing, but communicating with others can only benefit from a standardization of terms. Semantic drift, "embrace, extend and extinguish" and other trends in the BDSM scene only cause confusion and impede communication.

I, for one, quickly grow weary of trying to arbitrate in places where the whole source of a disagreement is the meaning attached to the words, rather than what is being said. And that happens a lot around here, because people tend to think others use a word in the same way as they themselves do; that words have an inherent meaning, and that this meaning is what one thinks it is.

QED.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 2:17:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Semantic drift, "embrace, extend and extinguish" and other trends in the BDSM scene only cause confusion and impede communication.

Except they don't. At least not for me and just about everyone I've ever hung around. We were able to have a lot of great times without ever having a definitions discussion. And the few times we did because we're dorks, it was all just good intellectual debate that no one took seriously.

Maybe I've just been really lucky so I don't get where people always talk about how confusing and bad it is??? In my years off and online, it hasn't been a problem for me once.

Miscommunication? Sure. Due to definitions quibbles? Nope.

quote:

And that happens a lot around here, because people tend to think others use a word in the same way as they themselves do

THAT is a problem, but that's a problem of someone being self centered and generalizing- NOT with word definitions.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 2:44:30 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

My owner would tell you that if it were up to me I'd have him keep me like I lived in a death camp.

Sort of a sidetrack, but some of the oberaufseherinen at the death camps would rather clearly qualify as non-consensual BDSM'ers. In a kinky way. So there's probably people out there who find that way too.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 2:57:26 PM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

maybe a bdsm Moses will come down one day and pronounce it so from some mountain top - till then - just live your dynamic, repects others dynamic, and be happy

Would the commandments of BDSM Moses be carved into leather?

If you will provide the leather, preferrably from your back, I will provide the commandments.

The problem is that such a figure has a limited sphere of influence in their lifetime. There needs to be a sufficiently dense community for them to gain a foothold in, and they need to have the charisma to get that level of support, as well as a vision to share and a way with words that people can relate to. מֹשֶׁה had that.

Of course, if I saw a burning bush and a voice presenting itself as "אהיה אשר אהיה" told me I was to lead the CMmunity, and the words actually made sense to me (which Hebrew only does when I have a lot more time to interpret it, in writing), I would be happy to step up. Replete with footage of the bush that refuses to burn down.

But that doesn't seem very likely.

Any other nominations?

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 3:00:32 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

So... what would the punishment for breaking the BDSM commandments be? Every flogger you pick up turns to dust?

The next 10 Doms you hook up with will discover they really want to be slaves?

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 3:10:32 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Except they don't. At least not for me and just about everyone I've ever hung around.

Well, I've never had any trouble with it offline. No problem there.

Though, I'd point out that the people I talk to have fairly homogenous semantics when it comes to debate.

quote:

THAT is a problem, but that's a problem of someone being self centered and generalizing- NOT with word definitions.

Actually, it is a language problem. In some prior debates, I've bothered to try acting as a translator. Once I get people on the same page with regard to seeing what sense of the words the other party was using, everything turns constructive again, and people don't have the problems they used to have.

That sounds like a communication issue to me.

Of course, coming from a field where exact meanings matter, I may ascribe more importance to people accurately understanding each other than you do. If that is the case, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. I have disagreed with things you've said in the past, and agreed with others. I still enjoy your posts.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 3:30:29 PM

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Being as such phrases are often the subject of an oral rather than a written tradition, I often find myself aware of them and yet entirely unaware of how they are spelled. It's "so mote" rather than "so mode"?

P.S. Google 'corrected' my search terms for me when I looked up mode. Looks like I have my answer.

< Message edited by NoirUMC -- 6/12/2007 3:31:31 PM >

_____________________________

-J

Working around the clock to find new and entertaining misspellings

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 3:38:34 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirUMC

It's "so mote" rather than "so mode"?

Yes.

In more modern terms, "so must it be", mote being (according to wiktionary) from OE motan (to be allowed to).

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to NoirUMC)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 3:47:53 PM

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
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OK Gotcha, I'm sorry I took the statement out of context.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

You did say

quote:

"This is more for clarification than anything else and is really a fairly small thing, but I don't think you read what I said clearly (in that quoted sentence). I was saying that you, just like me, are deciding whether it does or does not resemble slavery. You are deciding that it does resemble slavery. I'm deciding it doesn't. The only difference is that we disagree, but we are both making decisions and judgement and running them through our filters and all that jazz."

I replied that the defining quality of slavery is ownership(though not directly to that post). You can disagree with that, as you obviously do, no hurt, no foul. I did ask for claification on why that is but whatever, honestly it was just a curiousity. Perhaps you were only speaking about one small aspect...being humble...but I read it as a view of the whole dynamic. I apologize if I was wrong. I went off someone elses post and had only briefly read the other responses so I made have taken what you said out of context.

This was a really good topic. I'm suprised it did not take off even more. I think LA said it best:

"I'm curious to why a few people went for the negative interpretation being likely. It does seem to reinforce the notion that people equate sacrifice with submission, and spoiling is looked down upon. This notion could easily spread from interpretation to 'fact" to social rule. Happens all the time".

I didn't see that you had directly asked me a question, otherwise I would have responded.

Yes, I did say that quote however I do think that you have to go back to the preceeding post with luci to see what I meant by using the term resembling. In that post I said:

quote:

To me the specific words that were said were agressive and threatening because if someone says, if I'm not happy he's not happy that sounds more like a nagging wife that will make her husbands life hell for doing something wrong than anything resembling slavery. Again just my opinion on that specific quote the OP provided.

Somehow you are reading me to use the word resembling to mean defining point. But I really just meant the word resembling.

When I was talking about whether that quote resembled slavery was a reference to when I said that the quote sounded more like something I'd hear from a nagging wife, "If I'm not happy, my husband will NOT be happy.". Just to be clear I did not mean that she was not a slave just because of that quote (I don't think one random quote is what I would use as a yardstick), in fact I said several times that I could be wrong and it could be other things (like a misquote, a joke, or a very particular context), but what I did say is that the quote did not sound like something that resembles slavery or enslavement. What does the quote resemble to me? a nagging wife.

To me, the discussion of what the quote resembled is a very different discussion on what defines slavery and what are the main components or identifiers. Of course my concept on what resembles slavery is based off my personal definition of slave, but given that I never even said what my personal definition of slave was, this issue of "was the quote a defining point of slavery and thus is she a slave" wasn't remotely what I was discussing.

C~

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 4:18:42 PM

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

If you will provide the leather, preferrably from your back, I will provide the commandments.

Owwwie...

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 5:46:36 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Owwwie...

Aww, don't cry. You can have an aspirin? Perhaps even an anaesthetic if you ask nicely. ~g~

My local hospital specializes in burn victims, barotrauma and diving accidents, so the really bad cases from the rest of the country are brought in by helicopter. If they can't handle it, the alternative is Germany. Skin grafts and things like that are pretty well covered. Sure you don't want to give it a try?

Even in huge fonts, ten commandments wouldn't take more than 90 sq.in. or so.

Actually, binding books in human skin isn't all that uncommon. Many libraries have their own sections with books that have been bound thus, whether the skin was donated by someone as part of their will, or removed as part of some punishment (generally older works), or whatnot. The infamous Ilsa Koch had several made, IIRC.

Can you tell I'm morbid?

Off topic with regard to the burn unit:
There was a little girl, a civilian who was badly burned in Afghanistan and the docs had given up on her. One of the docs from this hospital spotted her, and cleared her treatment with the burn unit, with the remaining difficulty being transportation. Our foreign minister was visiting at the time, so he cleared out the conference space in the plane and brought her and her family along on the return trip. Got a fair bit of coverage in the local media.

I think I still have that picture of her father somewhere when they told him that not only would she live (that had been iffy at first), but she'd make a full recovery, hopefully without any scarring.

I've yet to see relief, happiness and gratitude expressed as profoundly and sincerely as that face.

No words or deeds could top that expression.

To me, that picture is as unforgettable as the one of Sharbat Gula.

Edit: Corrected the story, after looking it up.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 6/12/2007 6:07:18 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Differences between slaves and how they are treated. - 6/12/2007 5:50:21 PM

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Joined: 5/16/2005
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HA!

That is precisely the point I was wrapping up with. As for the psychology behind why people felt the need to latch onto that for 5 pages, I've no clue. But a monster was created, indeed.

I believe the cows come home when someone actually forces that concept into their heads... But I'd guess most of them come home around 5PM?

Peace Dominic.

Tora Kuo

_____________________________

Consistent Discipline Renders Punishment Unnecessary

(in reply to SirDominic)

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