When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (Full Version)

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selfbnd411 -> When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/9/2007 4:44:43 PM)

When it's hot.  Funny how the gas dealers want to control the temperature of gasoline when they buy it from refineries, but not when they sell it to you and me.  Could it be because that saves them from having to provide us with an actual gallon of gasoline?  Nah!

Kucinich is hot over loss at pump
Says fuel expansion aids Big Oil, cheats consumers
Saturday, June 09, 2007
Stephen Koff
Plain Dealer Bureau Chief

Washington- If you filled up your gas tank Friday, you probably got ripped off - and you will continue to be, as long as temperatures stay above 60 degrees.

At least that's what Dennis Kucinich, the Democratic congressman from Cleveland, said in a hearing Friday that oil company executives boycotted and Republicans critiqued as "political theater."

Kucinich and several experts, however, said his critique was based on the laws of physics and the practices of the gasoline industry. He and other Democrats on the House Domestic Policy subcommittee that he chairs say they want to give drivers relief.

he physics: Liquid expands as it gets warm, but energy molecules don't follow in a corresponding fashion. So, if a gallon of gasoline containing a fixed amount of energy expands in warm weather, it requires more than a gallon to produce the same amount of energy. In driving terms, the tiger in your tank becomes more like a big pussycat. Your gallon of gas doesn't take you quite as far.

Oil companies and gas station owners have long been aware of "hot fuel" expansion. To control these volume and cost variables, they compensate at the whole- sale level, using a formula that factors the fuel sold to service stations at the 60-degree Fahren- heit volume.

But that means that when the temperature is above 60 degrees, the gas station benefits. For example, expansion can turn a station's 9,793 gallons at 60 degrees into 10,000 gallons at 90 degrees, according to a new report by Kucinich's subcommittee.

Contraction can do the opposite, but on average the temperature swings in the United States benefit the oil companies, not the consumers, according to John Siebert of the Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association Foundation.

Kucinich wants to adopt a system, perhaps voluntary like in Canada, that includes automatic temperature-compensation equipment. It would give consumers information on a fuel's true cost. If the oil companies were held accountable, Kucinich said, American drivers could save $1.5 billion this summer - the amount that will be spent on 513.8 million gallons of gas affected by thermal expansion.

"People are paying for gasoline they are not getting," Kucinich said. "This is Big Oil's double standard."

Republicans refused to attend Kucinich's hearing, as did oil company representatives. But in a letter to Kucinich, Exxon Mobil Vice President Daniel Nelson said that different blends and energy content of gasoline in differ ent states would require a confusing "patchwork of regulations from state to state."

...

http://www.cleveland.com/open/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/isope/1181393845116430.xml&coll=2



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/9/2007 6:41:20 PM)

Self,
If you go to Canada where the fuel comes out of the ground at lower than usual temperatures the gas companies are all for temperature stabilization at the pump. Funny thing about that, eh?



seeksfemslave -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 12:48:30 AM)

Bit like , but not as important as, getting short measure in a pint of beer in the UK.



CuriousLord -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 2:18:59 AM)

I wouldn't worry about it.  The liquid compressiblity factor is so low on gasoline that I couldn't find it on Google.

In any case, my point is, they're "cheating" consumers out of such a small amount that, should they install temperature meters to discount the difference, consumers would likely be charged more to make up for the new matience costs than they'd save, assuming the gas stations didn't want to make up that extra profit.

quote:

But that means that when the temperature is above 60 degrees, the gas station benefits. For example, expansion can turn a station's 9,793 gallons at 60 degrees into 10,000 gallons at 90 degrees, according to a new report by Kucinich's subcommittee.


60 F = 15.(6) C = 288.(8) K
90 F = 32.(2) C = 305.(4) K

305.(4) K / 288.(8) K = 1.05(7)
10000 gal / 9793 gal = 1.02(1)

Temperature deviation in ideal gas:  5.(7)%
Temperature deviation in gasoline, claimed: 2.(1)%

I'd like to put out there that this is a rough analysis based on entry-level concepts (as I couldn't find the reference tables for the more standard models).  I can only assume that, from lack of their availability, that they are of minor consideratio on the whole.

My point in the math above is that, going from 60F to 90F, an ideal gas would show a volumetric expansion of 5.(7)%  The article claims that gasoline would gain 2.(1)% volume due to a similiar temperature change.  While the specific mechanics of gas pumps may allow for this, having vapors force the typically liquid element closer to an ideal gas in thsi consideration, I would challenge this as an exageration.  (Liquids do not expand voluemetrically on a scale like gases- because 5.(7)% !>> 2.(1)%, one can deduce that the figure dictating the 2.(1)%, the claim in this case, is likely in error.)

I get a lot of complaints that my posts aren't always easy to read.  (I butchered content from this one to make it easier; this is a compromise already.)  Still, if anyone can put this into common better than I can, it may be appreciated.



Einzelganger -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 3:04:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Bit like , but not as important as, getting short measure in a pint of beer in the UK.


Hear, hear!

-Einzelgänger



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 4:21:36 AM)

Curious,
You are probably correct in saying that the difference is not enough to make the pump changes required economically viable when you are talking about someone filling their personal autos. Where this does affect consumers directly is when tractor trailers fill up with heated fuel and are buying between 250 to 500 gallons of diesel at a pop. Then even 1% becomes significant, especially if they are fueling every day or every other day. It just serves to drive up the cost of transporting goods, and since so many consumer goods are now imported and then transported by truck to the consumer it has a direct relationship to the final cost of comsumer goods. It's my understanding that there are several class action suits against oil companies and fuel suppliers already in progress over this issue.



luckydog1 -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 12:41:00 PM)

I thought the ground surrounding the underground tanks would insulate the fuel pretty well.  The fuel is brought in special (temperature regulated ?) trucks then pumped directly underground.  Then directly into your car.  If the fuel was 60^ when put into the underground tank, it would not go to 90^ just because it is 90^ outside.  Generally, if you bury something it stays cool, think root cellars or heat pumps.  Most of the thermal expansion would occur after you put it in your tank(above ground, under your car/exposed to the 90^ air for several hours as well as the heat from the engine), not before you buy it.  Which is why you do not fill your tank to the brim.  And not change the amount of energy you paid for at all.  I wonder how much CO2 was emmited and energy used to hold this silly meeting?



imthatacheyouhav -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 1:16:16 PM)

When its purchased in the U.S and its 9/10 of a gallon....



selfbnd411 -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 1:31:13 PM)

quote:

Most of the thermal expansion would occur after you put it in your tank(above ground, under your car/exposed to the 90^ air for several hours as well as the heat from the engine), not before you buy it.


That sounds like common sense.  Common sense is often wrong, though.  It's common sense to look into the sky and think that thes sun revolves around the earth, after all.  If it's not a real problem, then why is it that gas station owners have made sure that when they buy gas wholesale, they adjust for temperature?

They don't want to be cheated, that's why.  But it's supposed to be OK to cheat consumers?  It's no different from going to the store and having the clerk tell you "Your change is 98 cents, but I'm out of pennies, so I'm just going to give you 95 cents."  A gallon is a gallon is a gallon.  How is that hard to understand?

Per the LA Times, May 9 2007:
U.S. oil companies and distributors account for temperature when they sell to each other. Wholesale facilities are equipped with devices that adjust volumes to bring the gallon tally in line with the 60-degree standard.


"What temperature compensation does is provide equity to all parties," said Dick Suiter, weights and measures coordinator at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, an arm of the Commerce Department that sets federal standards for fuel sales.


That equity, however, stops short of retail fuel pumps. Service stations dispense gas and diesel as if every drop is flowing at 60 degrees -- and they charge customers as if they are getting government-standard gallons.
...

"A sampling by federal regulators of fuel temperatures in underground tanks at service stations from 2002 to 2004 found a wide range above and below 60 degrees. The limited survey in California found fuel temperatures averaging 74.8 degrees, with a low monthly average of 64 degrees and a high of 83.


This is from their Q+A Factbox.

How high is the cost to consumers? The overpayment depends on the temperature of the fuel and the retail price of gas, and both are in constant flux. A consumer group believes the problem costs California drivers an extra 3 cents a gallon.


Should I buy fuel in the morning or when temperatures are cooler? No. The delivery temperature is key, because most fuel sits in underground tanks that act like big Thermos bottles. Even if a station receives a load of gas at 5 a.m., if it's coming straight from the refinery, the fuel will be hot and stay that way.  (It goes on to say that Federal regulators failed to take into account the fact that gas stations use double walled tanks now that insulate the gas and keep it hot)




SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 1:36:19 PM)

this was actually on the news today-they prefaced it with "are we in georgia getting the same gallon as cooler climates" or something like that.

i watched it-thought its probably is true-but not a thing i can do about it so i just cant worry about it.

seems, in one way or the other, were getting screwed all the time though doesnt it?



Griswold -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 4:47:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

When it's hot.  Funny how the gas dealers want to control the temperature of gasoline when they buy it from refineries, but not when they sell it to you and me.  Could it be because that saves them from having to provide us with an actual gallon of gasoline?  Nah!

Kucinich is hot over loss at pump
Says fuel expansion aids Big Oil, cheats consumers
Saturday, June 09, 2007
Stephen Koff
Plain Dealer Bureau Chief

Washington- If you filled up your gas tank Friday, you probably got ripped off - and you will continue to be, as long as temperatures stay above 60 degrees.

At least that's what Dennis Kucinich, the Democratic congressman from Cleveland, said in a hearing Friday that oil company executives boycotted and Republicans critiqued as "political theater."

Kucinich and several experts, however, said his critique was based on the laws of physics and the practices of the gasoline industry. He and other Democrats on the House Domestic Policy subcommittee that he chairs say they want to give drivers relief.

he physics: Liquid expands as it gets warm, but energy molecules don't follow in a corresponding fashion. So, if a gallon of gasoline containing a fixed amount of energy expands in warm weather, it requires more than a gallon to produce the same amount of energy. In driving terms, the tiger in your tank becomes more like a big pussycat. Your gallon of gas doesn't take you quite as far.

Oil companies and gas station owners have long been aware of "hot fuel" expansion. To control these volume and cost variables, they compensate at the whole- sale level, using a formula that factors the fuel sold to service stations at the 60-degree Fahren- heit volume.

But that means that when the temperature is above 60 degrees, the gas station benefits. For example, expansion can turn a station's 9,793 gallons at 60 degrees into 10,000 gallons at 90 degrees, according to a new report by Kucinich's subcommittee.

Contraction can do the opposite, but on average the temperature swings in the United States benefit the oil companies, not the consumers, according to John Siebert of the Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association Foundation.

Kucinich wants to adopt a system, perhaps voluntary like in Canada, that includes automatic temperature-compensation equipment. It would give consumers information on a fuel's true cost. If the oil companies were held accountable, Kucinich said, American drivers could save $1.5 billion this summer - the amount that will be spent on 513.8 million gallons of gas affected by thermal expansion.

"People are paying for gasoline they are not getting," Kucinich said. "This is Big Oil's double standard."

Republicans refused to attend Kucinich's hearing, as did oil company representatives. But in a letter to Kucinich, Exxon Mobil Vice President Daniel Nelson said that different blends and energy content of gasoline in differ ent states would require a confusing "patchwork of regulations from state to state."

...

http://www.cleveland.com/open/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/isope/1181393845116430.xml&coll=2


Facinating stuff...and I expect, somewhat accurate.

However, consider that federal environmental law requires all (commercial, "below ground") fuel tanks to be placed at no less than 4 feet below grade (I don't know why).

At 7 feet, most temperatures are a constant 55 degrees (some variance in that is included in the assumption), hence why so many people are investing in heat pumps that use the earth as a cooling as well as heating source (i.e., its consistancy).



Griswold -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 4:58:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:

Most of the thermal expansion would occur after you put it in your tank(above ground, under your car/exposed to the 90^ air for several hours as well as the heat from the engine), not before you buy it.


That sounds like common sense.  Common sense is often wrong, though.  It's common sense to look into the sky and think that thes sun revolves around the earth, after all.  If it's not a real problem, then why is it that gas station owners have made sure that when they buy gas wholesale, they adjust for temperature?


My guess is, for the same reason that people don't purchase old gas truck tankers to turn into heat pumps for their homes,   simply because it is significantly less likely that the average temperature in an above ground old, no longer useful gas truck tanker is an average of 55 degrees, whereas the Earth at grades below 7 feet will consistently be.

Simply, the adjustment is made to gas stations at point of purchase, because gas truck tankers are driving around all day long on black asphalt (which, even in January, with the Sun pointing its rays at the top end, with asphalt radiance shooting up on the underside) retain quite a lot of excess heat, and therefore, expansion just prior to being dropped into a much cooler storage system, thereby losing volume (and costing unfairly to the retail gas station)...but the gas in an underground tank (at something akin to 55 degrees, but for the short duration of the transit from same to your gas tank) is not likely to gain a significant enough variance to cause any discernable change in volume from said heat transference.

(My book will be out in September).



selfbnd411 -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 5:44:47 PM)

quote:

but the gas in an underground tank (at something akin to 55 degrees


If only it were true [;)]

My parents actually passed the myth that it's better to buy gas in the morning on to me as well.  But we're forgetting something: gas stations now use double-walled underground tanks, meaning that they're highly insulated.

But let's not rely on speculation.  Let's look at the data.  The LA Times quotes a study in which regulators took readings at various stations in California over a 12 month period.  The average temperature was 74.8 degrees.

And it's not just a California problem.  I'm not looking up the article again, but California's share of the overcharge was estimated at ~$300 million of a $2 billion annual profit windfall for gas stations.  Bascially any state that doesn't see extreme, Canada-like cold during the winter is affected.



Gauge -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/10/2007 7:58:37 PM)

I was in the oil/propane heating and A/C industry for 15 years. There is a basic physics issue that is being overlooked in these claims. In fact, it is the fundamental principle on which heat pumps actually function.

The fact is that heat always travels to cold. If you have a glass of water with ice cubes in it the ice melts to maintain the temperature of the water because the surrounding air is warming the liquid. The fact is that most of the double-walled tanks are not insulated in the sense that you are talking about. In fact the double walls of the tanks are there for environmental reasons to prevent primary tank failure. Regardless of insulation the heat will always transfer to the cold. Cold liquid in a Thermos bottle will eventually equalize with the ambient temperature surrounding the bottle.

What it seems to me is that we are being presented with something that is basic "smoke and mirrors" and has little basis in actual scientific fact. I am no physicist or chemical engineer I am just a guy that fixed and installed petroleum heating and A/C equipment but I will stand by the facts that I presented.

In case anyone wants to know: a heat pump is just an air conditioner in reverse. If the outside ambient temperature is 40 degrees Fahrenheit and the temperature where all molecules cease movement is absolute zero (-412 degrees Fahrenheit if my recollection is accurate) at 40 degrees F it is fairly "warm" out. What a heat pump does is lowers the outdoor unit temperature to (I forget the figures precisely) 25 degrees F then there is 15 degrees of usable heat. That heat is then transfered to the indoor coil and vented into the home. There is a little more to it but for my purposes it works. OK... it might not be the best illustration I have made but the basic idea is there.

The reason that a heat pump can function is because it makes the outdoor coil colder than the outdoor ambient temperature. Heat goes to cold.

Unless the oil companies have figured out a way to stymie the laws of physics then I would really question the facts being put forth here.



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/11/2007 10:42:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I thought the ground surrounding the underground tanks would insulate the fuel pretty well.  The fuel is brought in special (temperature regulated ?) trucks then pumped directly underground.  Then directly into your car.  If the fuel was 60^ when put into the underground tank, it would not go to 90^ just because it is 90^ outside.  Generally, if you bury something it stays cool, think root cellars or heat pumps.  Most of the thermal expansion would occur after you put it in your tank(above ground, under your car/exposed to the 90^ air for several hours as well as the heat from the engine), not before you buy it.  Which is why you do not fill your tank to the brim.  And not change the amount of energy you paid for at all.  I wonder how much CO2 was emmited and energy used to hold this silly meeting?


Lucky,
You are correct in all of this but you are missing the problem. The fuel companies are deliberately heating the fuel between the ground and the time it is dispensed. Fuel that would normally come out of the ground somewhere between 50 and 60 deg. is often coming out the nozzle at 70 to 80 deg., sometimes even warmer. Truckers were the first to notice this practice because their fuel tanks are exposed and would become warm to the touch after fueling at some suppliers whereas the tanks would normally feel cool if the fuel had not been heated. This is a planned effort on the part of the fuel companies/suppliers to rip you off.



MstrssPassion -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/11/2007 10:47:52 AM)

hot or cold

1 gal or 9/10ths

the price itself equals getting fucked at the pump no matter how you want to measure it



mnottertail -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/11/2007 10:52:10 AM)

this would be an excellent opportunity for all the women to wear their fuck me pumps, I expect.



luckydog1 -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/11/2007 5:12:04 PM)

have rope, so you are asserting they actually have heaters built into the pumps?  Any chance of showing any proof of that?



sub4hire -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/11/2007 6:29:06 PM)

That's why every state in the union has weights and measures.



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: When is a Gallon of Gas Not a Gallon? (6/12/2007 1:42:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

have rope, so you are asserting they actually have heaters built into the pumps?  Any chance of showing any proof of that?



Lucky, they don't call them heaters, they call them temperature stabilizers, but yes, that is exactly what I mean. Am including some links to information concerning court cases pending over this practice.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/12/hot_fuel.html

http://www.thetrucker.com/News/Stories/2006/12/15/Suitallegesoilcompaniesgasanddieselretailersoverchargingforheatedfuel.aspx

http://www.petrolworld.com/news/world/?guid=f64c65c8-0be3-4d97-81c3-bf4f18f6fe94

http://www.truck.net/showdetail/rec_id/1782



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