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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/14/2007 7:53:49 PM

Pandamonum

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Yes, he does know his stuff. Well enough to exploit Islam and push for it. He is directly responsible for what is happening right now.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/14/2007 8:47:51 PM

selfbnd411

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It wasn't that he went there as a Jew. It was because he went there as the Prime Minister of Israel. It was a clear statement.

I'm not defending the Palestinian reaction to it per se. I don't think that the whos and the whys really matter, to be frank. He knew what he was doing, though. The Palestinians knew it too.

Have you seen the movie Jerimiah Johnson? They enter a Crow burial ground, and he tells the army captain he's guiding that they have to go around it b/c it's bad juju. The captain asks him if he really believes that Indian superstition. He says it doesn't matter whether he believes it. All that matters is that the Crow do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Self bound so even though the Clinton "peace deal" (oslo and dayton) garunteed the right of everyone to go to thier Holy sites, it is ok for the Palestinians to reject the deal and start killing people because a jew exercised his right to worship?

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/14/2007 10:36:55 PM

luckydog1

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Slf bound, I agree it was a very clear statement...that the Palestinians were negotiating in extremely bad faith, and had no intention of abiding by the peace deals. The agreement was that EVERYONE (if you can point out the part of Dayton that forbade the PM of Isreal from going to holy sites, please educate me) had access to their own holy sites.

Lets not forget that untill 67 the Palestinians had every inch of the West Bank, all of Gaza and Half of Jerusalem, but they wanted War instead of forming a government to care for the people. Arafat ruled with an Iron fist ( and full support of the EU powers) and stole billions from the aid given to help the people there, while they continue to starve

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/14/2007 10:58:14 PM

Vendaval

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This area has had unrest for thousands of years. If Israel was there or not the fighting would continue.
Plenty of blame and murder and atrocities and wounded to go around on all sides.

Iraq is the spark that has started this round and who knows how and where it will end?

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/14/2007 11:28:57 PM

selfbnd411

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I think it's a disservice to all involved to dismiss the progress made under Clinton/Peres/Arafat. It's a shame that the internationalism of the Clinton years was replaced by the Neo-Conservativism/Millenialism of the Bush Jr era. There was a real shot at an Israeli-Palestinian accord leading to a Palestinian state that was acceptable to the Israelis until W made it known that we were not terribly interested in a settlement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

This area has had unrest for thousands of years. If Israel was there or not the fighting would continue.
Plenty of blame and murder and atrocities and wounded to go around on all sides.

Iraq is the spark that has started this round and who knows how and where it will end?

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/14/2007 11:50:33 PM

Vendaval

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Where do you read into my statement that I am dismissing anything?

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 12:31:21 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

So you are saying that the Hamas militants doing the killing are
absolved of any responsibility because of the previous actions of
the Israeli military?

If there is blame, this started just after the war when the British ditched their responsibilities and couldn't wait to get out of the place quick enough and allowed the zionists to set up Israel through terrorism rather than insisting on agreement between the two sides.

Then made worse in '67 war which many people at the time thought was a war waiting to happen but that is debatable. The US sanctioned the Israeli firsdt strike. (US, British and Israeli intelligence reckoned Israel could easiliy win the Arabs at one stroke due to the bad condition of the Arab armies). This created thousands of new Palestinian refugees. Israel, according to Israeli witnesses killed 900 prisoners and civilians in cold blood, confirming Arab resentments over stories that the Israelis were committing war crimes. Then the US allowed the Israelis to hold onto the occupied lands because the US wanted a foot hold in the middle east (cold war reasons). The zionists were happy to oblige because they had ambitions for a greater Israel. Until '67 is undone the Israeli Arab conflict won't be over.

Getting back to the current situation, the moderate elected Palestinian government were undermined by Sharon whose actions were okayed by the US who keeps saying they have no control over Israel yet the US bank rolls the state. (Strange how countries the US doesn't bank roll it can manage to squeeze economically) Hamas stepped into the vacuum, after all Palestinian compromise failed and Israel proved what the Palestinians suspected all along, Israel wants to create a greater Israel. Now all Isael has to do is to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from the west bank. This is probably going slower than the Israelis would like but piece by piece they steal Palestinian land, redivert Palestinian water, making it all but impossible for the Palestinians to live a fruitful life. The Israelis have created military areas and roads on which the Palestinians aren't allowed to use in the west bank which in affect have created Palestinian reservations in which they are held prisoner. All this, in whatever way you interpret it is against international and human rights laws. So let's take time out and thank the west for upholding human rights and the rule of law, the reason why Iraq wasd invaded LOL. Now ask yourself why countries like Syria and Iran see the US as a malignant force in the region.

The current Palestinian violence is just an existential act.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 1:25:35 AM

Vendaval

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If you go back through the ancient history of the region, you will find an endless
cycle of conquests and wars. Start with the 3rd millenium, BCE and keep going
through the present; Canaanites, Amorities, Hittites, Hurrians, Isrealites, Babylonians,
Persians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Abbasids, Seljuks, Fatimids, European Crusaders,
Mameluks, Ottoman Turks, Egyptians, Britians, Israelites, Jordanians, US, UN, etc.

http://www.palestinehistory.com/history/brief/brief.htm#01

(edited to add link)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 6/15/2007 1:26:51 AM >

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 2:07:54 AM

mohamed12

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to all you people who give your opinions based on your blatant ignorrance:
I am an arab, a plalestinian I used to hate the Israelis. But to day I respect them . under their occupation we had jobs, health , education. Today we have shown the world that our leadership is not ready to govern. Instead of marching forward to peace prosperity and independence, our own greed is destroying us, the violence within our own people shows us , the Israelis and the world, that we're not ready to govern yet. only now do we appriciate what we had under the jews , we had disagreements with them, but they were fair and decent, and like many other palestinians , I hope they return

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 2:51:31 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mohamed12

to all you people who give your opinions based on your blatant ignorrance:
I am an arab, a plalestinian I used to hate the Israelis. But to day I respect them . under their occupation we had jobs, health , education. Today we have shown the world that our leadership is not ready to govern. Instead of marching forward to peace prosperity and independence, our own greed is destroying us, the violence within our own people shows us , the Israelis and the world, that we're not ready to govern yet. only now do we appriciate what we had under the jews , we had disagreements with them, but they were fair and decent, and like many other palestinians , I hope they return

LOL You must be about the only Palestinian that thinks like that. Have you been to Palestine lately, if you are indeed a Palestinian.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 2:57:17 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

If you go back through the ancient history of the region, you will find an endless
cycle of conquests and wars. Start with the 3rd millenium, BCE and keep going
through the present; Canaanites, Amorities, Hittites, Hurrians, Isrealites, Babylonians,
Persians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Abbasids, Seljuks, Fatimids, European Crusaders,
Mameluks, Ottoman Turks, Egyptians, Britians, Israelites, Jordanians, US, UN, etc.

http://www.palestinehistory.com/history/brief/brief.htm#01

(edited to add link)

This is the story of the world, not the story of the middle east. Look at how violent North America has been. You might say there hasn't been any real war for two hundered years but you get get peaceful periods in the middle east that lasted two hundred years. You could say that the Ottoman Empire brought peace to the middle east for 500 years.

EDIT: I forgot the Indian wars and the war with Mexico so there hasn't been peace in N America for 200 years.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/15/2007 2:59:40 AM >

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 3:30:30 AM

mohamed12

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Mr meatcleaver
It is exactly your ignorrance I was reffering to . armchair critics who think the're smart but with no experience

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 3:37:23 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mohamed12

Mr meatcleaver
It is exactly your ignorrance I was reffering to . armchair critics who think the're smart but with no experience

I've never been to Gaza but I've been to the west bank and stayed with friends on three occasions and you are the first Palestinian I have come across with anything near you point of view. The only other Palestinian I have came across with anything similar to your view is one that was forced out of his house in Jaffa at gun point and had the contavcts that enabled him to settle first in Britain and then Canada and his view was, he had the choice of wasting his life fighting for justice or he could take his chance and start again.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 3:41:08 AM

mohamed12

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you'll be supprised how many we are go to
www.arabsforisrael.com

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 3:41:56 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

So you are saying that the Hamas militants doing the killing are
absolved of any responsibility because of the previous actions of
the Israeli military?

If there is blame, this started just after the war when the British ditched their responsibilities and couldn't wait to get out of the place quick enough and allowed the zionists to set up Israel through terrorism rather than insisting on agreement between the two sides.

You need to check your facts. The British had asked the UN to look at the situation. In 1947 the Un came up with a plan that the British mandate would end on May 15th 1948, and that there would be a dual State, with the Holy sites being neutral. The Israelis agreed and the Arabs didnt. So on May the 14th 1948 Israel declared Independence.
It was the UN who did nothing. Everyone also needs to remember that much of the current conflicts are Shia/Sunny based, and even if Israel wasnt involved these would be taking place. There is no love lost between Iran and Syria either, one is Arab and one Persian.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 3:51:05 AM

seeksfemslave

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The UN did nowt, again lol
I was going to comment on the lack of Brit resources to stay in Palestine and "maintain" the peace.

Another point thats just crossed my tiny mind; I think that there was trouble brewing in the Army due to delayed de mobilisation. Dont forget we had sent troops to Greece and Malaya. The dates might be out tho'. Not sure.
Just checked the dates of Malaya and Greek troubles and they fit in perfectly to drain limited Brit resources.. How did they do it ? lol

Then I see meatcleaver , post below, blames the policeman rather than the transgressor. NO?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 6/15/2007 4:02:17 AM >

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 3:55:00 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

So you are saying that the Hamas militants doing the killing are
absolved of any responsibility because of the previous actions of
the Israeli military?

If there is blame, this started just after the war when the British ditched their responsibilities and couldn't wait to get out of the place quick enough and allowed the zionists to set up Israel through terrorism rather than insisting on agreement between the two sides.

You need to check your facts. The British had asked the UN to look at the situation. In 1947 the Un came up with a plan that the British mandate would end on May 15th 1948, and that there would be a dual State, with the Holy sites being neutral. The Israelis agreed and the Arabs didnt. So on May the 14th 1948 Israel declared Independence.
It was the UN who did nothing. Everyone also needs to remember that much of the current conflicts are Shia/Sunny based, and even if Israel wasnt involved these would be taking place. There is no love lost between Iran and Syria either, one is Arab and one Persian.

The British were straining at the leash to get rid of the mandate, rather like the US is straining at the leash to get out of Iraq now and don't really care what happens afterwards as long as it has a modicum of face saving.

If forcing people out of their houses at gunpoint and stealing land and creating 750,000 refugees in the process is declaring independence then the zionist did declare independence. As you point out there was no agreement between the peoples of Trans-Jordania and it was ignoring that fact that the British are guilty of. The British knew the newly formed UN wouldn't be in a position to intervene but they could use the UN agreement as a way of getting themselves off the hook of responsibility for what happened next.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 4:00:44 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mohamed12

you'll be supprised how many we are go to
www.arabsforisrael.com

Who said all Arabs were against Israel existing? What most Palestinians want from my experience is justice and not the destruction of Israel.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 4:36:49 AM

Politesub53

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Thousands of British troops were stranded abroad for up to two years after WW2. i dont disagree that we were happy to pass the mandate to the UN. Russia and America were powerful enough to do more but did nothing either.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 5:53:16 AM

seeksfemslave

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Didnt the US recognise Israel almost immediately ?
Sounds like a bit of collusion to me ?
If we are going to kick someone shouldnt it be both Israel and the US ?
Then send the Brits a donation to help them recover after WW2.
We did get that NO?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 6/15/2007 5:58:27 AM >

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