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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 6:34:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Didnt the US recognise Israel almost immediately ?
Sounds like a bit of collusion to me ?
If we are going to kick someone shouldnt it be both Israel and the US ?
Then send the Brits a donation to help them recover after WW2.
We did get that NO?

It probably was collusion. The US wanted a strategic foot hold in the middle east. The '67 war had prior US agreement too.

Oh and seeks, the British promised the Arabs independence during WWI should they form an insurrection against the Turks. We stuffed the Arabs that time too!

Hmm I wonder why the Arabs just don't trust the west?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/15/2007 6:37:52 AM >

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 6:47:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: mohamed12
you'll be supprised how many we are go to
www.arabsforisrael.com

Who said all Arabs were against Israel existing? What most Palestinians want from my experience is justice and not the destruction of Israel

MC-
The Arabs are saying that today. It seems pretty clear that is exactly what they are saying.

quote:

Hamas militants seized control of the Gaza Strip yesterday and deposed the Palestinian political party that recognizes the Jewish state - and then proceeded to shoot vanquished Fatah Party fighters in the street like dogs.
"The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived," Islam Shahawan, a spokesman for Hamas' militia, told Hamas radio.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas declared a state of emergency and dissolved his coalition government, firing the Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh. But Hamas just laughed.
"Hamas rejects the Abbas decision," senior HamasIsmael official Sami Abu Zuhri said. "In practical terms these decisions are worthless."
Nizar Rayan, another prominent Hamas official, called on "Abbas' army of prostitutes to surrender or else they will be executed in public." Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/2007/06/15/2007-06-15_the_day_terror_won.html

Frome the same article, it shows how they deal with internal disagreement.

quote:

Meanwhile, there was mayhem in Gaza City as Hamas murdered Fatah men - sometimes while the victims' wives and children looked on, witnesses said.
"They are executing them one by one," a witness who gave his name as Amjad told The Associated Press. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

Obviously this situation is caused by Israel and the USA - right?

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 7:17:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: mohamed12
you'll be supprised how many we are go to
www.arabsforisrael.com

Who said all Arabs were against Israel existing? What most Palestinians want from my experience is justice and not the destruction of Israel

MC-
The Arabs are saying that today. It seems pretty clear that is exactly what they are saying.

quote:

Hamas militants seized control of the Gaza Strip yesterday and deposed the Palestinian political party that recognizes the Jewish state - and then proceeded to shoot vanquished Fatah Party fighters in the street like dogs.
"The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived," Islam Shahawan, a spokesman for Hamas' militia, told Hamas radio.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas declared a state of emergency and dissolved his coalition government, firing the Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh. But Hamas just laughed.
"Hamas rejects the Abbas decision," senior HamasIsmael official Sami Abu Zuhri said. "In practical terms these decisions are worthless."
Nizar Rayan, another prominent Hamas official, called on "Abbas' army of prostitutes to surrender or else they will be executed in public." Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/2007/06/15/2007-06-15_the_day_terror_won.html

Frome the same article, it shows how they deal with internal disagreement.

quote:

Meanwhile, there was mayhem in Gaza City as Hamas murdered Fatah men - sometimes while the victims' wives and children looked on, witnesses said.
"They are executing them one by one," a witness who gave his name as Amjad told The Associated Press. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

Obviously this situation is caused by Israel and the USA - right?

Follow the history Merc and I would put Britain on your list too. Israel has been allowed by its western allies to break every international and human rights law which the west claim to be their values and ethnically cleansed large numbers of Palestinians and effectively herded them into reservations. Once you have denied people of human dignity you will get a break down of order and gang rule. To say what is happening now has npthing to do with Israel and the policies of its western allises is totally disingenous.

What the Palestinian situation does illustrate is the mendacity, the maliciousness and total hypocracy of the west.

Who invaded Iraq to impose the rule of law and human rights? Or when it comes to this issue was the reason for invading Iraq regime change? Or was it because Iraq wouldn't submit to UN resolutuions? It is difficult to remember what the latest reason for invading Iraq was. I'm pretty sure western values was in there somewhere.

Oh I forgot. Invading countries and killing innocent people and then saying it is all their own fault, is a western value!!!

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 7:18:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Where do you read into my statement that I am dismissing anything?

The thousands of years of strife part needs qualification imo. Yes, there's been a lot of strife to go around. You could say the same thing about Italy--the only periods of real Italian unity have been under brutally repressive regimes such as the Roman Empire (it was unified at its peak, not during its rise or fall) and the Mussolini era.

To me, it reads as "they've always fought, and right now they're fighting because Iraq" and with no real statement of hope. I think that Clinton's diplomacy showed us that there's a great deal of progress to be made when reasonable people agree to disagree on some things and find common ground where they can. I thought it deserved a mention to balance the statement out.

(in reply to Vendaval)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 7:56:25 AM

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Facinating posts. I'm suprised to read all of this on CollarMe.

(in reply to selfbnd411)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 8:10:53 AM

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quote:

Follow the history Merc

MC -
You know me, I avoid using the past to rationalize and stubbornly point to the pragmatic present. History gives rationalized excuses for every current war. People are dying now. In this case people are killing each other now without Israel, USA, or the UK providing any influence. An elected government is gone and one installed with violence is taking its place.

It may not be an example of all the people but it is the example of all the leaders of the people - Today - in Gaza - given the ability of self determination. There is yet no outcry in the Islamic or Arab world condemning the action, indicating complicity, if not agreement. Gaza was an opportunity, it is now an example of the result of Palestinian self rule. It is what will happen when we leave Iraq. It points to a pragmatic conclusion of what occurs in this region without a brutal ruthless dictatorial authoritative State in place from either side of the political spectrum. Not in history, in the present. And since as I watched the news this morning and saw children looking between the ages of 7-12 riding on the tanks in camouflage uniforms and black masks on their faces looking like their older counterparts driving the tanks, I'd say the future is represented too.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 8:24:14 AM

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Isreal is fucking the Palestinians for a short term gain but will pay for the resentment in the future.

I would have embarrassed Hammas, worked with them to rebuild and co-opted them, just like Nixon going to China after making a career of destroying people who went to China. If Hammas failed, they would have been completely discredited with their own people. Now the people are rising up to support the government they elected against the one they didn't. I seem to recall another country doing that same thing and some terrorist saying "give me liberty or give me death". They were of course criminals and terrorists because they violated the rules of war and were all traitors.

I don't use the past to justify the future and in that agree with Merc, BUT I think one must understand the past in order to find your path into the future, a subtle but very important difference.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 8:37:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Follow the history Merc

MC -
You know me, I avoid using the past to rationalize and stubbornly point to the pragmatic present. History gives rationalized excuses for every current war. People are dying now. In this case people are killing each other now without Israel, USA, or the UK providing any influence. An elected government is gone and one installed with violence is taking its place.

It may not be an example of all the people but it is the example of all the leaders of the people - Today - in Gaza - given the ability of self determination. There is yet no outcry in the Islamic or Arab world condemning the action, indicating complicity, if not agreement. Gaza was an opportunity, it is now an example of the result of Palestinian self rule. It is what will happen when we leave Iraq. It points to a pragmatic conclusion of what occurs in this region without a brutal ruthless dictatorial authoritative State in place from either side of the political spectrum. Not in history, in the present. And since as I watched the news this morning and saw children looking between the ages of 7-12 riding on the tanks in camouflage uniforms and black masks on their faces looking like their older counterparts driving the tanks, I'd say the future is represented too.

Your position is disingenous. You cannot make sense of any aituation without context. Why are the Palestinians in what is no more than a reservation at best and a prison camp at worst in the first place? How do you have self determination in a prison camp?

Steal land off any people and press them into a reservation, take away any hope of a future and you will find young males making mischief. Add to that outsiders stopping all flow of money, lobbing in shells, randon assassinations and destroying homes at random and you will create a situation ideal for such existential acts that are taking place now.

Israel and its US and British allies are directly responsible for the current situation.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/15/2007 8:38:48 AM >

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 8:42:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Isreal is fucking the Palestinians for a short term gain but will pay for the resentment in the future.

I would have embarrassed Hammas, worked with them to rebuild and co-opted them, just like Nixon going to China after making a career of destroying people who went to China. If Hammas failed, they would have been completely discredited with their own people. Now the people are rising up to support the government they elected against the one they didn't. I seem to recall another country doing that same thing and some terrorist saying "give me liberty or give me death". They were of course criminals and terrorists because they violated the rules of war and were all traitors.

I don't use the past to justify the future and in that agree with Merc, BUT I think one must understand the past in order to find your path into the future, a subtle but very important difference.

Lynson Johnson said something similar in 1967 or something like the consequences of the '67 war he sanctioned will still be going on at the turn of the century. I guess he was having regrets even then.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 9:05:59 AM

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quote:

Why are the Palestinians in what is no more than a reservation at best and a prison camp at worst in the first place? How do you have self determination in a prison camp?

MC,
A "prison camp" with its own police department, Billions of dollars and Aid from the US and other sources? Arafat's family, commandant of the "prison", living in Parisian luxury? This latest battle is over which group of leaders gets the next batch of extortion money. I pity the people who are living there, trying to survive and being kept from the truth. I respect the position of the, albeit self identified, Palestinian who has posted in this thread. Why should his legitimacy be challenged any more than any of us?

"Palestinians" don't have much of a "history. You have to place equal "blame" on creating them on the Arab States who initially told them to leave the area during their first attempt to "wipe Israel off the map"; and in the succeeding years never offered or wanted these "refugees" anywhere near their States.

quote:

Israel and its US and British allies are directly responsible for the current situation.

Replacing Israel, US and British allies with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE also works as a historical reference. Now - what about the present?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 6/15/2007 9:54:47 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 9:11:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Oh and seeks, the British promised the Arabs independence during WWI should they form an insurrection against the Turks. We stuffed the Arabs that time too!

Hmm I wonder why the Arabs just don't trust the west?

Correct me if im wrong, we helped the Arabs kick out the Ottoman controlled Arabian Peninsula, previously ruled by oppression. This wasnt just in Palestine, it was almost the whole Arabian Peninsula.
So justify how the Arabs would have been better off under Turkish rule ? Mordern day Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi ect all stem from this period.

There will be no lasting peace in the Middle east until Shia and Sunny agree to live side by side, despite whatever happens in Palestine.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 11:35:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Why are the Palestinians in what is no more than a reservation at best and a prison camp at worst in the first place? How do you have self determination in a prison camp?

MC,
A "prison camp" with its own police department, Billions of dollars and Aid from the US and other sources? Arafat's family, commandant of the "prison", living in Parisian luxury? This latest battle is over which group of leaders gets the next batch of extortion money. I pity the people who are living there, trying to survive and being kept from the truth. I respect the position of the, albeit self identified, Palestinian who has posted in this thread. Why should his legitimacy be challenged any more than any of us?

"Palestinians" don't have much of a "history. You have to place equal "blame" on creating them on the Arab States who initially told them to leave the area during their first attempt to "wipe Israel off the map"; and in the succeeding years never offered or wanted these "refugees" anywhere near their States.

It was flight and expulsion. In Haifa there is a monument put up by the Zionists to liberation of the Jewish population of the town in 1948. You would do well at researching how many Jews the Zionists liberated in Haifa. You won't find many, if any, as Haifa was an Arab Christian-Muslim town with bearly a Jewish person living there if any. Most of the town was ethnically cleansed at gun point.

As for the billions of aid. Arafat is dead. The US and Britain have done all in their power to undermine the freely Hamas elected authority by starving it of money, which was freely elected after the Fatah led authority which recognized Israel was undermined by Israel with the backing of the US.

Now the US is backing Fatah now it is too late.

But the real problem is that western politicians seem to be lawyers rather than historians. If Blair knew his history and his statements suggest he doesn't and Bush seems to have an even worse knowledge, Blair would know that Britain often worked successfully with what were called terrorist governments to bring about peaceful conclusions to conflicts. The problem with western politicians is that they demand absolutes of their adversaries while being mendatious and hypocritical themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Israel and its US and British allies are directly responsible for the current situation.
quote:

Replacing Israel, US and British allies with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE also works as a historical reference. Now - what about the present?

There will never be peace until 1967 is reversed and Israel will carry on ethnically cleansing the west bank, it has to or it won't have a Jewish state because there will be too many muslims within its borders. This is what the US and Europeans won't face up to, prefering to blame the Palestinians whilst ignoring Israeli crimes.

The Palestinians weren't guilty of the holocaust, it was the Germans. The Palestinians shouldn't have to pay for western guilt.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/15/2007 11:39:16 AM >

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 11:44:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Oh and seeks, the British promised the Arabs independence during WWI should they form an insurrection against the Turks. We stuffed the Arabs that time too!

Hmm I wonder why the Arabs just don't trust the west?

Correct me if im wrong, we helped the Arabs kick out the Ottoman controlled Arabian Peninsula, previously ruled by oppression. This wasnt just in Palestine, it was almost the whole Arabian Peninsula.
So justify how the Arabs would have been better off under Turkish rule ? Mordern day Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi ect all stem from this period.

There will be no lasting peace in the Middle east until Shia and Sunny agree to live side by side, despite whatever happens in Palestine.

The British promoted the insurrection of the Arabs, supplied them with money and arms and promised them independence after WWI. However, Britain had no intention of giving the Arabs independence because Britain wanted access to Arab oil. Britain morew or less gave themselves a mandate over Transjordania through the auspices of the league of nations after WWI. Should Britain have kept its word, the Arab world would have been independent in 1918 and the history of the middle east would have been completely different.

While Britain didn't occupy much of the Arabian penisuala, it had very favourable terms when it came to oil in the gulf. You don't have to have soldiers occupying land to wield power, look at the modern day US.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/15/2007 11:48:22 AM >

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 11:56:36 AM

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You are correct in what you say, in as much as Britain did set up companies for the purpose of extracting oil. Say the Ottoman Empire had stayed put though, they would still be there to this day, unless another superpower had kicked them out.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 12:04:45 PM

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MC: while I think its not possible to argue with the facts in your posts why do you gloss over the point that the Arabs are fighting one another......AGAIN !!!

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 12:23:54 PM

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I have lifted this from the web, Ernest Bevin was the the British Foreign Secretary.

Bevin was infuriated by attacks on British troops by dissident Zionist groups. However, Britain's economic weakness, and its dependence on the financial support of the United States (Britain had received a large American loan in 1946, and mid-1947 was to see the launching of the Marshall Plan), left him little alternative but to yield to American pressure and allow the United Nations to determine Palestine's future, a decision formalized by the Attlee government's public declaration in February 1947 that Britain's Mandate in Palestine had become "unworkable." The fighting between the two sides greatly intensified following Britain's withdrawal. US support at the UN, together with other international support (notably, from the Soviet Union), resulted in the creation of the State of Israel.

One of Bevin's last comments on the topic was: "The majority proposal is so manifestly unjust to the Arabs that it is difficult to see how we could reconcile it with our conscience."

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 6/15/2007 12:25:38 PM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 12:27:42 PM

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quote:

As for the billions of aid. Arafat is dead.

MC,
Yes he is gone and so is all the money provided in aid. History to selectively ignore?

The "Palestinians" were created by the Arab world more than any other influence for this reason. The Arab countries thought Israel would never survive and once they lost the initial and all subsequent battles/wars to date, they never wanted or allowed these people to live in their countries. I understand the strategy of making them be am antagonistic presence against Israel but not many, if any, are alive today who were relocated by the creation of Israel voluntarily, at force, or by the recommendation of the Arab "brothers". More history to ignore?

I have as much support of Israel as I do for the Palestinians - None. If I chose to, I could pick historical references for or against both. We are witnessing something most of us can not relate to. Blind hatred based upon nationality fueled by fundamental radical religious zealotry. I doubt any citizen of the US or the UK experiences any similar passion for anything of a Civic or religious nature; where the death of a child killing other children and others by committing suicide is perceived as honorable. My reference point would be the standard below 60% turn out in the Presidential election and the standard less than 20% turn out when only local elections are scheduled. Attempting to apply or expect a democratically elected government allowing for a peaceful power transfer resulting from votes is just silly in light of this reality.

Sadly without the notoriety and publicity maybe social evolution would occur. However there is no chance of that happening as long as the world's energy needs are served in the region. Without oil in the region this latest event would have as much coverage as Durfur. Same amount of killing in the name of a tribe or religious faction, but just as ignored.

You are selective in your pointing to history. Full blame and responsibility if its the US or the UK; Palestinian or Arab history and action given a total pass. It makes discussion impossible and I won't be making further comment.

Be well!

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 1:02:29 PM

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You are making the assumption that the Arabs have one identity, this is not at all true and never has been. If you read the history of the British in the middle east you would find that the British were exasperated with Arab disunity making the usual western mistake of thinking the Arabs have one identity. Many of the refugees, who are what we call today the Palestinians were Christian and still are but the west would find it inconvenient to demonize Christians so they label all the Palestinians as muslim because it is acceptable to be derogatory against the Arabs in today's west. It was the Arabs of Palestine or west Transjordia that were ethnically cleansed.

However, just because other Arab countries have their own agenda doesn't mean the Palestinians should suffer for it. Saying all the Arabs are the same is akin to saying all Germanic Europeans are the same or all Latin Europeans are the same, they aren't, they have different identities and different histories. Saying Europeans were responsible for the holocaust, on one level is true but to be correct one would say it was the Germans that were responsible. One should differentiate the Arabs too.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 1:06:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I have lifted this from the web, Ernest Bevin was the the British Foreign Secretary.

Bevin was infuriated by attacks on British troops by dissident Zionist groups. However, Britain's economic weakness, and its dependence on the financial support of the United States (Britain had received a large American loan in 1946, and mid-1947 was to see the launching of the Marshall Plan), left him little alternative but to yield to American pressure and allow the United Nations to determine Palestine's future, a decision formalized by the Attlee government's public declaration in February 1947 that Britain's Mandate in Palestine had become "unworkable." The fighting between the two sides greatly intensified following Britain's withdrawal. US support at the UN, together with other international support (notably, from the Soviet Union), resulted in the creation of the State of Israel.

One of Bevin's last comments on the topic was: "The majority proposal is so manifestly unjust to the Arabs that it is difficult to see how we could reconcile it with our conscience."

Well I accept by the time of the Potsdam conference Britain was weak and sidelined. As you point out, it was recognized at the time the Arabs of Transjordania had been stitched up.

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RE: "Abbas dissolves Palestinian government" - 6/15/2007 1:08:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

MC: while I think its not possible to argue with the facts in your posts why do you gloss over the point that the Arabs are fighting one another......AGAIN !!!

That is a stupid question seeks. There has never been a resolution to the conflict in the first place.

I would be more in agreement with you if the west's dirty paws weren't all over the conflict.

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