Should a slave be opinionated? (Full Version)

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akbarbarian -> Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 12:43:31 PM)

        I am in a M/s relationship and have been for about two months now with someone, a slave who has been, in the last few weeks since moving in with me, arguing with me frequently to the point it's kept me up late and short on sleep for work the following day for several days now.  She says it is normal for anyone with thoughts and feelings to be that way, but that she's willing to "go through the motions" and act like she agrees even if she doesn't mean it with the statement that while she might be faking her agreement with me, she does it with the possibility that eventually she will actually mean it.  This encompases many topics lately.  How does this strike other Masters out there?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 12:52:07 PM)

It strikes me that this is a sign you aren't compatible and/or having growing pains.

But I would ask what the nature of the arguments is- is this just intellectual debates?  Is this over things you've already made agreements over?  Is it over petty stuff?  Give me an example of a typical fight and how it plays out.

Remember- it really does take two to argue.  Slaves will have opinions- the issue is whether you want them to express them or not AND if you want them to be expressed, what restrictions you have no that expression.  Your slave ideally will do whatever you order in this regard- but what behaviors do YOU exhibit to allow and encourage this pattern of arguing?

Randomly- what about her past relationships?  Is arguing just a pattern she's used to having?



imthatacheyouhav -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 12:55:22 PM)

opinionated yes...disrespectful NO....



peachums -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 12:57:18 PM)

Hello Master Akbarbarian,

I know you asked this of Masters, and I know it is generally frowned upon for a slave to post in response, but as a girl who has felt that, done that and most defiantly learned from that, I thought maybe I could voice my words.

When I first started it was stated to me time and time again, no man want's a doormat. They want a girl that they can hold a conversation with and that can be a responsive human being. But that can go too far. I know when I moved in with my ex Master, all of a sudden we started arguing quite a bit. And it was usually my fault.

Finally a man pointed out that there is a way to be firry and opinionated but to keep it respectful and to where things come off passive and not an order.

It took me a lot of patients, and a lot of disciplining before I got it. Just agreeing and pretending to like what the dominant likes never works. Things just build up then, it just takes learning how to see his point of view and accept his choice even if it is not always yours.

I hope I am not out of line in posting here, and if I am I will gladly edit myself out.
Peach



Lashra -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 12:58:32 PM)

I think as long as she expresses them respectfully that it should not be a problem. I encourage my sub to have his own ideas, thoughts, feelings, and opinions. Yes they will not always reflect my own but he is entitled to them. However I did have to draw the line with him regarding arguing points. I told him I have my opinion and you have yours as long as we both respect that there should not be a problem. But I refuse to argue and in his previous relationship that seems to be all that they did.[:'(] I will not tolerate it in mine.Our opinions differ not on things in our relationship but other things such as politics, religion and the like.
I think if there is a lot of arguing between you two over chores or dress then perhaps things maybe not have been as negotiated out as they should have been prior to her moving in.

Good Luck,
~Lashra



JerryInTampa -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 1:20:10 PM)

I agree with much of what has already been said.

Yes, a slave should have opinions. No, a slave will not neccessairily change her opinions to match her owners. No, a slave should not be dishonest and say "yes" when she means "no", but yes, a slave should be respectful and should behave in a manner befitting her place relative to her owner.

I have to ask what "motions" she's going through. If it's "I don't want to kneel at your feet but I will" then it's up to the two of you to determine if the issue is that she doesn't like kneeling at feet, or if you are simply not bringing up the subbie in her.

If it's "no, outlawing bunny slippers was wrong", then she's welcome to her own opinion, as long as she's not insubordinate.

She should be seeking to understand your position. She should be seeking to bring her position on at least relationship issues in line with your own ("he says I'm better for the spanking time and I need to understand how it's true"), but that doesn't mean that she must share it.

If she always thought what you thought and wanted what you wanted, then what would be her submission?



slaveluci -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 1:32:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian
arguing with me frequently to the point it's kept me up late and short on sleep for work the following day for several days now

I can't imagine doing this to my Master or to a vanilla partner.  I simply can't imagine something that would be so important to argue that much about so that it would keep Him up, deprive Him of sleep, and cause Him to thus be tired at work.  To me, that's just disrespectful - period.

quote:

She says it is normal for anyone with thoughts and feelings to be that way

Normal for her, perhaps, but not normal for me and I have many thoughts, feelings, and opinions that I've willing to "hold my ground on," so to speak.  Being passionate in my beliefs, thoughts and opinions is perfectly fine with my Master.  But arguing with Him disrespectfully and especially into the night as He was trying to rest - totally unacceptable (not that I would desire to do it anyway). 

quote:

she's willing to "go through the motions" and act like she agrees even if she doesn't mean it with the statement that while she might be faking her agreement with me, she does it with the possibility that eventually she will actually mean it

Wow - I cannot imagine feeling or doing this LET ALONE telling Master I'm feeling and doing it[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m22.gif[/image].  To Master and I, "going through the motions" or "acting" is lying.  Plain and simple.  I don't have to agree with everything He says, thinks, or decides.  But I do have to abide by it and obey. 

Does your slave understand what type of relationship she has agreed to be in here?[:D]  Not to judge her but I'd be very curious to know just exactly what she expected entering into your relationship.  Did she think such behavior would be acceptable to you when obviously it is not?  Or, was it even discussed?  For me, "going through the motions" and "acting" one way while feeling another would quickly led to deep resentment and feelings of emotional isolation.  The few times I tried to "fake" agreement in the very beginning of our relationship, He saw right through it and insisted that I say what was on my heart and mind.  My feelings don't necessarily color His but He insists it's His right to know WHATEVER I'm thinking and feeling. 

I would suggest a real heart-to-heart here where you explain to her that it is unacceptable to argue with you like she is, especially to the point that you're losing sleep.  If you haven't already, spell it out to her what is expected of her in situations where she disagrees and feels the need to voice her feelings to you.  Tell her what you will permit/accept in this area and what you will not tolerate.  Once you're sure she understands clearly, then if it continues, you'll know that her behavior is not stemming from ignorance of what your expectations are.  Then you'll know that it could be defiance or it could be that she simply needs some help in learning how to express herself in the manner you find proper or any number of other issues.  That will require a whole other thread[;)].  Seriously, good luck with this............Blessings, slave luci       






MstrssPassion -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 1:38:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

       I am in a M/s relationship and have been for about two months now with someone, a slave who has been, in the last few weeks since moving in with me, arguing with me frequently to the point it's kept me up late and short on sleep for work the following day for several days now.  She says it is normal for anyone with thoughts and feelings to be that way, but that she's willing to "go through the motions" and act like she agrees even if she doesn't mean it with the statement that while she might be faking her agreement with me, she does it with the possibility that eventually she will actually mean it.  This encompases many topics lately.  How does this strike other Masters out there?


not enough info offered in order to make an indepth observation but enough to make one short shallow one (note highlighted text above)

looks like you guys jumped in a bit quick

less than 2 months & its M/s...... ?
less than 2 months & its full time under the same roof for a few weeks already..... ?

There is something to say about taking your time about getting to know someone & making steps toward a commited relationship that will eventually evolve to a full time live in relationship.

Funny how these guickies never play out quite like they do in the erotica novels.



meticulousgirl -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 1:39:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Remember- it really does take two to argue.  Slaves will have opinions- the issue is whether you want them to express them or not AND if you want them to be expressed, what restrictions you have no that expression.  Your slave ideally will do whatever you order in this regard- but what behaviors do YOU exhibit to allow and encourage this pattern of arguing?


I think Albatros is right there.  We all have opinions because we are all human however the issue is if you want your slave to express that opinion or not.  If not then maybe what needs to happen is setting up an addition to your structure where the slave needs to ask for permission to speak.  If your not in the mood to hear her opinion deny her the privledge.  It's that simple.



sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 1:42:16 PM)

opinionated to the bone yet i'm respectful ...that i'm able to voice them and glad that mine do matter to Daddy as well as to my secondary.



slaveluci -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 1:56:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meticulousgirl
If not then maybe what needs to happen is setting up an addition to your structure where the slave needs to ask for permission to speak.  If your not in the mood to hear her opinion deny her the privledge.  It's that simple

But how does she go about asking for permission to ask for permission to speak?  By writing a note?[8D]  When she asks for permission to speak, isn't she already speaking?  It's kinda like LA said awhile back about asking for permission to enter a chatroom.  Don't you have to have already entered before you can ask to enter?  Seems a little odd to me. 

I'm kidding, meticulousgirl, because I see what you're saying.  It may be part of the solution they need, who knows?  This may be a very "unslavely" thing to say in the eyes of some (and who cares?) but that type of structure would not be a positive, productive thing in my own relationship.  If I was in such a state that I felt the very real need to express something to Master and He denied me the right to do so, I think the top of my head would blow off[:D].  My nature is such that the only thing that helps me deal with issues and come to solutions is talk, talk, talking about them.  If I was denied the opportunity to give voice to my feelings, have Him listen, and then guide me to a resolution, it would be a destructive - not constructive - thing for me.  Master totally agrees and, thank God, it is His nature to WANT to know all that I'm thinking, feeling, and dealing with no matter the time of day or mood He's in.  Then again, we are extremely compatible and don't disagree on things so when I'm needing to ramble, it's never anything negative specifically toward Him or concerning our dynamic.  That may be the key as to why He's always willing and eager to listen.  If I was constantly arguing with or nagging toward Him, maybe He would deny me the privilege to speak[:)]..........slave luci



akbarbarian -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 2:03:02 PM)

As she's explained it, she feels passionate about certain topics.  As to being agreed with by default, I'm fine with realizing someone starts our with one perspective and when hearing mine there may require some time, experience, and communication in order to align one's attitude with their owner's.  I've heard it said by Master Bob and slave jan, the M/s couple many may have heard of, that their philosophy is that the slave aligns her will with that of her Master.  Does it seem very dissimilar, or unreasonable to ask that a slave align her attitude with that of her Master?

I can also gracefully accept tactfully expressed differing views provided that I don't feel condemned, criticized, or argued with.  The tact however has been woefully lacking lately and passion is hardly any excuse.  Passion is the reason for many crimes, yet it is the excuse for none.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 2:05:55 PM)

Let's not confuse will with opinion/perspective.  Let's also not eliminate the reality that many masters enjoy the benefit of their slaves opinions and may in fact change THEIR will to match the slaves if they find it appropriate.

Passion is fine- disturbance is not.  It sounds like your arguments are mostly over intellectual debates and not actual matters of life or working together?  If so, set the ground rules for such debates and stick to them.  There are rules of order for arguments and fights no matter what relationship you are in and everyone needs to abide by them in order for it to end well.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 2:11:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

Does it seem very dissimilar, or unreasonable to ask that a slave align her attitude with that of her Master?



No, it's not unreasonable. However, you must realize that this couple will only be successful at this if the are a match. If the slave simply cannot do this, then he or she is being asked to change themselves in a way that they cannot. Hence, the match probably isn't the best. There is no fault, it simply is.

Master Fire



slaverosebeauty -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 2:23:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian
Does it seem very dissimilar, or unreasonable to ask that a slave align her attitude with that of her Master?


First off, if you read any number of my posts you will see I am VERY opinionated, and very strong willed, so being a slave can and being opinionated is very possible {looks around, I see a few of my fellow 'opinionated' friends who are bottom-types}.

Joining an M/s relationship or changing into an M/s relationship from a vanilla or otherwise, does NOT mean that you change who you are inside. It does mean that changes happen. Being respectfull is a BIG one; that should have been there in the first place though.

My attitude is not 100% aligned with MJ, at times we are not even close, more often than not since we have decided to work on things and to make this a strong and healthy relationship, we try to find a middle ground, or agree to disagree. I will admit, I will TRY to align myself with MJ, even if I may not fully agree, I tell Him so, yet, I do it in as respectfull a manner as I can; at times its difficult, but I do try.

Like your slave I am VERY passionate about some things and MJ about others, luckaly for us, we have some shared passions that make our relationship stronger. If their is somrthing that MJ likes an I am not to keen on, I do tell Him, respectfully, in the end He makes the right decision for us; and visa versa, their are a few things I enjoy that He does not or doesn't have the experience with; we handle it as a couple.

Relationships ARE give and take. Sometime you take more and give less, other times, you give more and take less.  



DQUEEN -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 2:27:40 PM)

Why not???
I want someone submissive, but as well an intelligent, well educated, with a strong personality and yes opinionated. Even if both Domme/slave decide for a full time relationship, you cant keep a 24/7 play... so I want to be proud of the one who is with me; Someone who can carry a conversation, without embarrassing me in front of my family and friends. I already have a doormat by my front door, I don't need another one in my bed.
Dqueen



MzMia -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 3:03:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

       I am in a M/s relationship and have been for about two months now with someone, a slave who has been, in the last few weeks since moving in with me, arguing with me frequently to the point it's kept me up late and short on sleep for work the following day for several days now.  She says it is normal for anyone with thoughts and feelings to be that way, but that she's willing to "go through the motions" and act like she agrees even if she doesn't mean it with the statement that while she might be faking her agreement with me, she does it with the possibility that eventually she will actually mean it.  This encompases many topics lately.  How does this strike other Masters out there?


What kind of slave do you have? lol, no I am serious.
What do you really think is happening here?
You sound like you are the submissive in the relationship, most of the time.
You all are switches, one day your are the TOP, next day you are the bottom.
It is all good.



MstrssPassion -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 3:16:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

As she's explained it, she feels passionate about certain topics.  As to being agreed with by default, I'm fine with realizing someone starts our with one perspective and when hearing mine there may require some time, experience, and communication in order to align one's attitude with their owner's.  I've heard it said by Master Bob and slave jan, the M/s couple many may have heard of, that their philosophy is that the slave aligns her will with that of her Master.  Does it seem very dissimilar, or unreasonable to ask that a slave align her attitude with that of her Master?

I can also gracefully accept tactfully expressed differing views provided that I don't feel condemned, criticized, or argued with.  The tact however has been woefully lacking lately and passion is hardly any excuse.  Passion is the reason for many crimes, yet it is the excuse for none.



I don't think anyone ever suggested that a slave will align their will to their master just because he/she is their master nor do I think anyone ever suggested that this will happen <snap> just like that.

If you wanted a blank slate that you could have imprinted your will upon you shouldn't have selected the opinionated sort.

But here you are... you have someone who is not shy about voicing her mind on subjects. What to do? You either "train" her to voice her opinions tactfully & within reason defined by you or you end the relationship. (side note: I can't comment on whether she is out of line or not but obviously you are not satisfied with her expressions or you wouldn't be here posting) Best to admit to making a mistake early on & correct it rather than let frustration be the ruler of both lives.

Your the master right? You got the both of you into this & in all reality its up to you to make it all work out or admit to not making the right choice for all involved. That big bad word accountability comes into play here.

Lots of stuff involved with being a master. A lot of it ain't so glamorous.



juliaoceania -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 3:17:41 PM)

There has been only one occasion that I kept my Daddy up when we had a disagreement, and it was a fairly significant one...

There is a difference between having an opinion and being an ass about having an opinion.. there is also a time and a place to voice an opinion, and right before bedtime probably is not the best time.



MagiksSlave -> RE: Should a slave be opinionated? (6/15/2007 3:49:16 PM)

I dont know me and Master dont agree with eachother on everything in fact many times we have debated things sometimes one of us changes our opinon based on the others argument but many times we just agree to disagree and that too ends the debate. I am always respectfull to him in my debates and he in turn is always respectfull back, we neather start yelling or even raise our voices, in fact I dont think eather one of us has ever yelled at the other and we are fast aproching our one year anaversery.

I am very opinionated and Master loves that because he enjoys a good debate very much. And we do debate a lot, just becuase we both enjoy the good conversation that comes along with it (dont confuse debateing with arguing it isnt the same thing Master have never actually had a real fight)

It has never kept us up at night though and when one of us has had enough of the debate it gets put away if only untill the next day. I see nothing wrong with this unless it starts desturbing your life and it seems that it has in your case.

At that point Im thinking there may be a deeper issue here and it may be time to sit and have a heart to heart with her to see what is going on in her head, She just moved in with you that is a HUGE change and she may be feeling totaly out of sorts and out of controll in a bad way.

Magik's opinionated slave



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