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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 12:06:16 AM

akbarbarian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BabyNyla

Okies ... I got curious and had to go look up the bedtime forum ... and in that forum, from 6/15 ... you said you were only in a relationship for 2 months ... and now, 7/8 (not even a month later ... it's 4 months? Am I missing something?

Rough estimate from when I got my job versus when we met. It's between 3-4 months.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 12:12:16 AM

akbarbarian

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Back to the topic please. Flames just make it harder for those who want to discuss the OP. All those who have provided constructive ideas, friendly and helpful insight are instrumental in helping make a M/s couple just a little happier. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 12:24:12 AM

petal7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

. . .I am not keen on threats, manipulation, and guilt trips being used to control someone. Apparently she was given this big song and dance about "How would you feel if you were standing at your grandfather's grave and you knew you could have gone to his last birthday party but didn't".

I'm with you on that one. I think that manipulation of that sort is disgusting. I was in a similar situation with my family. Now let me preface this with the fact that my situation is very different from this one and most that the general girl is in. My family used guilt tactics, intimidation and were downright abusive toward me (a precedence set from the time I was very young) to the point that it was a detriment to my emotional health. Master made a very tough decision when he put his foot down and said "No more!"

From a slave's point of view, I do know what it's like to feel torn between the loyalty you've chosen and the one you are genetically connected to. It seems that in the vanilla world, it is a taboo thing to even give the appearance of asking someone to choose between family and relationship. But I think that we are on a slippery slope in the BDSM world of allowing things to become sacred cows.

If as a slave, I knew that I was going to have trouble tearing myself away because of family pressure, but felt it appropriate and essential that I attend the event, I would ask my Master to go with me - or put in other fail-safe measures so that I could fulfill both my committment to the family and my devotion to obeying his orders. If I didn't take such measures and allowed myself to be late, I would not only expect severe punishment for blatant disobedience, but I would expect to face the fact that I had disappointed and possibly hurt him with my choices. I would fully expect to answer questions about my loyalty.

My point of view is skewed though, because my Master has been better to me in the last 6 months than my family was to me all my life. My Master has stood by me through momentous issues where my family had all but abandoned me. If I were to betray that, I would be the one asking, long before he did, what in the world I was thinking.

Good luck in working through your situation.

-- petal

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 12:33:35 AM

texancutie

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Ok....well I just wonder why you were not invited to her grandfathers celebration. It's just not a good sign maybe..regardless of her family. Also, why couldn't your cousin, who you don't know well, be told that your slave's grandfathers celebration was going on simultaneously? And that her grandfather was very important to her, and it took precedence over a celebration held by strangers....regardless of the time frame given....

In my book, not everyone else's of course, elder family members hold alot of respect from everyone. Which is as it should be. Time is fleeting.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 12:34:31 AM

akbarbarian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petal7

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

. . .I am not keen on threats, manipulation, and guilt trips being used to control someone. Apparently she was given this big song and dance about "How would you feel if you were standing at your grandfather's grave and you knew you could have gone to his last birthday party but didn't".

I'm with you on that one. I think that manipulation of that sort is disgusting. I was in a similar situation with my family. Now let me preface this with the fact that my situation is very different from this one and most that the general girl is in. My family used guilt tactics, intimidation and were downright abusive toward me (a precedence set from the time I was very young) to the point that it was a detriment to my emotional health. Master made a very tough decision when he put his foot down and said "No more!"

From a slave's point of view, I do know what it's like to feel torn between the loyalty you've chosen and the one you are genetically connected to. It seems that in the vanilla world, it is a taboo thing to even give the appearance of asking someone to choose between family and relationship. But I think that we are on a slippery slope in the BDSM world of allowing things to become sacred cows.

If as a slave, I knew that I was going to have trouble tearing myself away because of family pressure, but felt it appropriate and essential that I attend the event, I would ask my Master to go with me - or put in other fail-safe measures so that I could fulfill both my committment to the family and my devotion to obeying his orders. If I didn't take such measures and allowed myself to be late, I would not only expect severe punishment for blatant disobedience, but I would expect to face the fact that I had disappointed and possibly hurt him with my choices. I would fully expect to answer questions about my loyalty.

My point of view is skewed though, because my Master has been better to me in the last 6 months than my family was to me all my life. My Master has stood by me through momentous issues where my family had all but abandoned me. If I were to betray that, I would be the one asking, long before he did, what in the world I was thinking.

Good luck in working through your situation.

-- petal

Very helpful, thank you. There have been times I have been accused of using guilt, and I tend to get pretty upset at the idea. There are times when I self police and evaluate "Am I trying to make someone feel guilty, would I like to make someone feel guilty" and try to put it on a more honest tack immediately. Honesty is big to me, and guilt seems like a dishonest and cowardly method. I am also outraged at others using guilt, especially on those close to me, so my regard for what they want just drops way way down when I see that and I tend to not care what they are interested in at that point. I suppose I put up a sort of wall towards people I see that way. What I need to do, is to remember that the person I'm trying to shield doesn't nessecarily have that wall up or even the desire to have it. So I get ahead of myself. Anyway, this is all very good perspective.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 12:38:53 AM

akbarbarian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: texancutie

Ok....well I just wonder why you were not invited to her grandfathers celebration. It's just not a good sign maybe..regardless of her family. Also, why couldn't your cousin, who you don't know well, be told that your slave's grandfathers celebration was going on simultaneously? And that her grandfather was very important to her, and it took precedence over a celebration held by strangers....regardless of the time frame given....

In my book, not everyone else's of course, elder family members hold alot of respect from everyone. Which is as it should be. Time is fleeting.

You could be right that it's not a good sign, but from what I hear, people tend to avoid being involved with her grandfather. She tries to go unnoticed from what I could tell, and advises others in her life to do the same for their best interest. I'm a little foggy on the details and I'm sure I'll be asking again.

As far as my cousin, it was just a missed opportunity to meet alot of people I'd like the chance to meet. I don't know that she'd be offended, I simply wanted to return the friendly intimation and take that opportunity.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 12:45:28 AM

texancutie

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Explaining to your cousin..shouldn't be an issue. Family is important and something you can't not deal with...regardless of whatever issues there are. Her grandfather is elderly...so maybe people do avoid getting too much involved...sad as it may be....people don't always know how to deal with things.

I would not punish your slave over something like this. But it is up to you anyway. Sometimes showing mercy is a sign of maturity too. You can't always go by a book...because there is no handbook.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 12:48:23 AM

charlotte12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

I am also outraged at others using guilt, especially on those close to me, so my regard for what they want just drops way way down when I see that and I tend to not care what they are interested in at that point. I suppose I put up a sort of wall towards people I see that way. What I need to do, is to remember that the person I'm trying to shield doesn't nessecarily have that wall up or even the desire to have it. So I get ahead of myself. Anyway, this is all very good perspective.

Reading this has convinced me even more that i think you two will be able to talk this through and figure it out. I really enjoy when i see people making an effort to understand someone else's perpsective as it's something i try to pride myself on. I've found myself getting rather involved in this thread and rooting for not just you or her but for the two of you to work it out :)

~charlotte

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 1:35:55 AM

Celeste43

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You really think it is more important that she goes to a party being hosted by a person she never met, whom you don't know, instead of an elderly relative who she lived with? Seems to me that you don't have your priorities straight.

And if she promised to go to the movies with you on a certain night and then got the news that he was dying, would you still expect her to go and have a great time?

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 2:18:30 AM

adoracat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat
he had every right to tell her "plans were already made, no you arent going to the party." he didnt.

Actually I did tell her that.

ah. my error then, please accept my apology.

quote:

She had every right to tell her family "other plans were made, i need to leave here by X time." she didnt.

That's right, she didn't, and therin lies the problem or this thread wouldn't exist.

which is why the discussion needs to be made about her learning to tell her family no. which can be absolutely brutal to do.

kitten, who has BTDT

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 2:23:26 AM

adoracat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat
and yeah, i HAVE gotten up from a family dinner and left because my now ex husband decided that i had to be home at a certain time, no matter what my family's wishes were. it was either that or be beaten. of the non-consentual type.

Can this sort of thing be expected reasonably, in a relationship desired by both parties where consent is present?

i think yes. its all in the priorities you establish. if she's 26 and in a manipulative family situation, its absolutely reasonable to say to her "chose your priority. putting me/us first, or the family first. if you chose me, these will be the expectations. if you chose the family, then i have to decide from there."

single woman no children (i am assuming here) at age 26, she should have enough presence of mind to be able to choose for herself.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 3:47:57 AM

BBBTBW

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AKBarbarian,

I have read the WHOLE thread....and to be honest I think you come off a bit whiney. You didn't get what you wanted because of some self-imposed limitations. Yet, you want to blame your slave for it. You BOTH made some mistakes here and you should BOTH be punished for them. You for making her agree to something before you had the facts. And she for disobeying your directives. It is your responsibility for making the "M/s" dynamic work. In order for it to work properly, you have to have a handle first on yourself, then on it. It seems the former is lacking which will make the latter be impossible.

Since life that you can't control does happen, you should have made some contingency plans in order to execute your original plan. Getting a map or driving directions from MapQuest would have been an easy thing to do. Calling your cousin and asking for specific directions from a certain point would have been an easy thing to do. Perhaps even doing the drive to become familiar with the surroundings beforehand would have been an easy thing to do. What did you do before you had GPS? Your reasons for not going to your family get together are weak at best and you are using your slave as a scapegoat.

There is not only one person to blame her for the breakdown of your plans, there are two. A good punishment for her would be to figure out and execute a punishment for you. This will make her think about her actions and make her uncomfortable with the decision she made. If she cannot or refuses to come up with an appropriate punishment for you, then punish her further but make the punishment fit the crime. Have her call your cousin and apologize for missing the party and taking all the blame. Make her wash and detail both of your cars with precision and within reason, ie: old stains that cannot be removed should be overlooked. Then make her prepare you a feast for a KING and invite your cousin and her significant other over for a wonderful meal. Make her be a June Cleaver type and don't let up on her...let her know ahead of time what the consequences will be if she doesn't deliver in an appropriate manner. Get creative...but accept your responsibility in the breakdown of plans as well....Because in the end, it is ALL your fault.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 3:55:17 AM

forbiddensoul

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It does not sound to me like a trusting loving D/s relationship. More like simple domestic violence if i think of those threats to beat you. well girl you have to make some choices here.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 4:51:42 AM

reticence

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Hello Akbarbarian,

What a wonderful opportunity this situation provides you!! This lifestyle sometimes presents us with difficult situations, choices, and the truth is, its much easier to fantasize about it than live it. I am sure your slave is very upset, was being manipulated, pulled from both sides and felt overwhelmed and did not make the best decisions. I think you have a wonderful opportunity to go over the situation, chronologically, point out to her each decision she made, sometimes we have to be shown that not making a decision in a timely manner IS, in fact, making a decsion.
I think discipline might be needed now, but not punishment. Discipline in terms of teaching her.. i define discipline and punishment entirely differently.
Have her write down the entire chain of events that happened, in chronological order, how she felt and why she choose to act as she did at each step.
After you calm down, read what she wrote, digest it, and go over it with her.. bit by bit, guide her and show her how she made emotional decisions, how she was manipulated.. sometimes we just need to see ourselves and our behaviors from another's perspective to learn about ourselves.
It seems this situation is not so much about the parties, it is about communication, teaching her how you want her to behave, how to prioritize. You need to do this calmly, keep your emotions out of it and show her what is expected. There is no better teacher than experience. You have a pragmatic situation here, from which you can both learn. You can earn more respect and trust from her and you can be assured she has the tools to be more self aware next time something like this happens. which will help you trust her more. Explore her feelings, her guilt, her motivations, and the strong manipulative pull of her family as she made each decision. A whole cascade of events unfolded because of micro decisions made under pressure.

Good Luck to both of you.

reticence

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 5:01:13 AM

RealDom69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

Back to the topic please. Flames just make it harder for those who want to discuss the OP. All those who have provided constructive ideas, friendly and helpful insight are instrumental in helping make a M/s couple just a little happier. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Constructive Idea...!

If I were the Slave in question, I would ask why is master so determined to cut me off from my Family / Support network .. and tell him to shove his collar up his ass...

Just my opinion...

:))
Johnny Reble

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 5:33:17 AM

ShiftedJewel

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Soooo much drama, so little time!

Plain and simple, no matter what the relationship dynamics are, promises were made and broken. Good, her family is important to her... apparently his shouldn't be important to him? This was a chance to meet up with family members he had never had the chance to meet or hadn't seen in ages... no big deal right? Hell, that opportunity comes around weekly. Yeah, I'd be pissed too. This is a man that she apparently isn't all that comfortable with, in a situation where she is almost surely guilted into attending and she doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to say no. Does that reflect back on him? Nope. It's all on her. Does he have the right to be upset by it... oh yeah. In plain english... what so many have said is that her family is important to her... guess what... maybe his family is just as important to him and she should have considered that in blowing off this birthday party.

And the driving thing? Erin, really.... I know you know better. If I were to come on here and say basically the same thing... that I didn't feel that I could drive that distance to an area that I didn't know or that driving at night, particularly in an unfamiliar area, was totally out of the question for me you wouldn't think twice about it cuz' you know me and my issues with my eyes and age has nothing to do with this, I've been dealing with it since I was 23.... but most likely I'm the only person in the world with those issues... In reality, I fully understand what he is saying about getting lost easily (I'm Scooter's navigator and have talked him through an area via cell phone on a few occasions and he is a highly intelligent man) and I respect that AKBarbarian knows his limitations behind the wheel. As if that was even the point.

The point is/was... Is this a breakdown in the M/s dynamic... No, it isn't.... it's a speedbump. Is there reason for disipline? Yes, there is. She wasn't thinking about anyone but herself at the time she made her decision. The fact is that she was blowing off the importance of his family as well as the plans they had made as a couple says a LOT. What sort of disipline? Perhaps an essay (or several) based on the importance of being able to say no, of being able to disregard or walk away from unhealthy outside influences (learn to say "pack your bags we're goin' on a guilt trip!!!" to people that try to manipulate), keeping promises ("Mom, I wasn't given the correct details about this party, not my fault, I thought it was ending early and we made other plans for this evening, give my love and best wishes to him, I gots to go). After she has written them she should read them aloud and the two of you discuss it, cover any points she may have missed and what she has or hasn't learned from the experience.

Just a thought, be it an unpopular one or not.

Jewel

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 5:46:34 AM

Deboyce

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Something that was told to me long ago, when a problem or difficulty in a relationship arises ask yourself what did I do or say
or not do or say that contributed to the problem and what can I do or say to elevate or assist in correcting it.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 6:59:07 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

It is your responsibility for making the "M/s" dynamic work. .

oh really.. and that's right... she has no responsibility in this regard ... she just as to show up.

fuck the stupid things people say just floor me sometimes

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 7:01:59 AM

KatyLied

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quote:

It is your responsibility for making the "M/s" dynamic work. .

I would've phrased this as: "it is your responsibility to get to know your slave and create an environment in which she wants to submit..." To think that only one person is responsible for making a dynamic work is just...silly.

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RE: Being loyal to your word - 7/8/2007 7:06:09 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
The point is/was... Is this a breakdown in the M/s dynamic... No, it isn't.... it's a speedbump.

great post as usually ShiftedJewel... and glad to see you around again...

However, as a note, I think it might be premature to call this situation a speedbump... yeah it might turn out to be one.... but as the situation unravelled the whole dynmaic brokedown. Also, considering some past posts from the OP... I would be more incline to state the dynamic is more at risk of being a breakdown than a speed bump.

Frankly, I suspect there M/s dynamic is rather dysfunctional at present.... alot of issues need to b dealt with before it becomes functional. This opinion is based not on just this thread, but other posts in the recent past as well.

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