RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (7/9/2007 5:16:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

DomKen: your post is a perfect example of a person with scientific leanings believing the fundamental questions are solved when in fact they are evaded or avoided, whichever you prefer.

If I say that when travelling thru' the cosmos light is shifted to the red by as of this moment an unknown influence, that would totally destroy all the current cosmological theories.

No. That would be an unsupported assertion. In science that gets you the 'ok, where's your evidence at variance with present theory' response. Since you don't have a single tiny shred of evidence against the Big Bang theory you will be unable to respond in a useful way and there goes your attempt to up turn all of cosmology.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Its no more  extraordinary a "guess" than that used to support the big Bang. A spontaneous violation of the Conservation of Energy by the way.

No again. The Big Bang does not violate Conservation of Mass/Energy, which BTW is the correct form of that particular theory. As I said above Big Bang theory posits that the universe was once very small and very hot. As in all of the universe. Where did the mass/energy come from? We don't know and have no way of knowing. If it makes you feel better to believe that some supernatural entity created the singularity that became the universe fine but you've got exactly as much evidence as any other possible explanation i.e. none.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Some objects have red shifts indicating speeds greater than that of light . They shouldnt be able to be "seen"  and such speeds are thought to be impossible anyway !

Still don't understand the expanding universe model I see.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Some objects are thought to be cosmologically close to one another and have different red shifts.

Got a reference to this? I'm unaware of anything of the sort.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
How is the red shift of a galaxy measured?

Just like how we measure any red shift.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Into what is the Universe expanding ?

Space/time is defined by the resence of mass/energy so in a very real sense the universe is expanding into literally nothing.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
From what did it begin ?

The pre Big Bang singularity. before that nobody can know.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
What is the source of the force generated by electromagnetic effects.?

This question is not clear. Do you mean what is the causitive agent of electromagnetism? the answer to that is photons and virtual photons.
Do you mean what is the thing that creates the EM force? EM force is one of the four fundamental forces and as far as we know has no source.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
How are molecules of intricate complexity able to generate and organise into the entity we call life.?

You need to study organic chemistry. Basically the hydrocarbon molecule is capable of near infinite complexity and when energy is available many of these molecules simply will form.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
What is life anyway.?

Only arskin'

Are you interested in the science of life or the philosophy? Scientifically speaking life is the state in which an object displays reproduction, metabolism and adaptation.

Philosophy wise you're on your own.




CuriousLord -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (7/9/2007 5:34:26 PM)

Physics comes up in a lot of posts. Perhaps there should be a Physics thread?




Sinergy -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (7/9/2007 6:33:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Physics comes up in a lot of posts. Perhaps there should be a Physics thread?


You could always start one...

Sinergy




CuriousLord -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (7/9/2007 8:59:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Physics comes up in a lot of posts. Perhaps there should be a Physics thread?


You could always start one...


Then I'd feel obligated to answer everything asked. Too little time right now. Hoping to pawn the responsibility off on someone else. ;)




mnottertail -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (7/10/2007 5:28:39 AM)


ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
How is the red shift of a galaxy measured?

Just like how we measure any red shift.
 
 
^^^^^Ja, that is good science what Ken has said, there is no equivocation about this.  Even children lose awe over this.  It is the Doppler effect, no pretty fancy added crap, just plain gruel.
 
Stand perpendicular to a moving train and listen to the whistle moan.  Perhaps you will discover invariant's theory as Einstien did whilst daydreaming of trains.
 
 
 




Raechard -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (7/10/2007 12:20:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's really a shame that they didn't consult some dude name Raechard before investing in their particle accelerator, isn't it...



Yep, they'll not make that mistake twice thats for unsure.




MasterFireMaam -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/30/2007 6:43:36 PM)

I saw something about the universe expaning and contracting scroll by on the recent posts and, of course, had to come by.

To the OP:
I've spent the last decade doing physics demonstations as a job. We use films like this to help explain it. This is called "Powers of Ten".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpA28eUB7Ek

I've also taught Conceptual Physics and Earth Science at the University level.

Master Fire




FangsNfeet -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/30/2007 8:01:21 PM)

The History Channel made the Universe Series for a reason. Rather than try and explain anything, we just have to pop in a video and push play.

That's how more than a few of my teachers explained science stuff.




dcnovice -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/30/2007 8:06:13 PM)

I'd show them a picture of a dom's cock and explain that the universe is even bigger. Should do the trick.




kdsub -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/30/2007 9:40:03 PM)

I would tell them that the universe could be any size or shape they can imagine. And by just imagining they make it a reality because in an infinite universe in size and time everything that can happen has already happened.
That from life sprang the universe not from the universe sprang life. Because without a thinking being to quantify reality nothing can exist.




popeye1250 -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/30/2007 10:41:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I saw something about the universe expaning and contracting scroll by on the recent posts and, of course, had to come by.

To the OP:
I've spent the last decade doing physics demonstations as a job. We use films like this to help explain it. This is called "Powers of Ten".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpA28eUB7Ek

I've also taught Conceptual Physics and Earth Science at the University level.

Master Fire


Hey, Master Fire Maam! Long time no talk.
Hope everything is going nicely for you!
I was watching that series on the History Channel about the universe and one lady said that our own Galaxy alone is so large that we'd never be able to see the other side of it!

P.S. watched that youtube video, fascinating!




MzMia -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/30/2007 10:46:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I would tell them that the universe could be any size or shape they can imagine. And by just imagining they make it a reality because in an infinite universe in size and time everything that can happen has already happened.
That from life sprang the universe not from the universe sprang life. Because without a thinking being to quantify reality nothing can exist.


I totally agree, of course you can never mention words like "GOD" or "Creator".
But whenever I look at the stars, study astronomy, etc. it sustains my beliefs.
I have NEVER felt that life, the world and the galaxy just happened and came from nothing!
[:D]




CuriousLord -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/31/2007 12:29:37 AM)

Good find on the video.. I actually watched it through, despite the lack of speakers on this computer. :P

The last part, when it was zooming in, sort of hit me pretty hard. I had a nightmare about that once, only things got increasingly violent as I became a smaller and smaller particule (while under a knock-out drug that was later withdrawn due to the nightmares it caused in some pacients.. bah!).

It'll be interesting to find what the universe really does look like so zoomed out or in!




seeksfemslave -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/31/2007 3:41:49 AM)

Just a comment about scientists...
First I am not anti science, I rather enjoy it. Its the odd byways into which mathematics has led fundamental science that bugs me.
For example it now seems that more than one infinity is possible. I heard a scientist explaining this using reference to set theory. At the end all I got out of it was that there is more than one infinity because mathematics can handle more than one infinity therefore there must be more than one infiniity
This line of reasoning is applicable almost everywhere when scientific knowledge considers mathematically  "things" at what is so far thought to be an ultimate.level.

Note DomKen's "explanation" for the electro magnetic force...Its fundamental man...fundamental.

At one point the Universe was hot and small. That inexplicable accumulation/appearance of energy violates existing theory whatever DomKen says.




seeksfemslave -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/31/2007 4:03:29 AM)

I think DomKen asked for a reference to Red shift anomalies. ie things being the same, on an astronomical scale, distance apart but having different red shifts.
Somebody did. So, how about this....

quote:

Title: Two emission line objects with z>0.2 in the optical filament apparently connecting the Seyfert galaxy NGC 7603 to its companion
Authors: M. Lopez-Corredoira, Carlos M. Gutierrez
(Submitted on 26 Mar 2002 (v1), last revised 27 Mar 2002 (this version, v2))
Abstract: We present new spectroscopic observations of an old case of anomalous redshift--NGC 7603 and its companion. The redshifts of the two galaxies which are apparently connected by a luminous filament are z=0.029 and z=0.057 respectively. We show that in the luminous filament there are two compact emission line objects with z=0.243 and z=0.391. They lie exactly on the line traced by the filament connecting the galaxies. As far as we are aware, this is the most impressive case of a system of anomalous redshifts discovered so far.


http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050211thirtyyears.htm

Note in the article how orthodox science reacted.....it hushed things up
Came across the following
quote:

"In the Milky Way, the so-called "K-effect" shows that hot, young stars seem to be exploding away from us in every direction (i.e., they have an excess redshift right here in our own galaxy). If this had been heeded when first discovered, the expansion of the universe might never have been promulgated."




DomKen -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/31/2007 7:08:53 AM)

Your link isn't to the article you claim. The reference you provide is missing a journal title or any other indication of where this supposed article is. Unluckily for you though the abstract did provide me with enough info to find real science on this subject:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986ApJ...302..245S for the full ref.

Abstract:
quote:

The bright galaxy NGC 7603 has an extended spiral arm which appears to end exactly on a small, high surface brightness companion (referred to here as NGC 7603B). However, the companion has a much larger redshift than that of NGC 7603, placing it conventionally almost twice as far away. Deep plates presented here show that NGC 7603 actually extends for some considerable distance beyond the companion, and that there is evidence for past interactions which can explain the disturbed structure. Narrow-band H-alpha images show no sign of strong disturbances in the feature apparently leading to NGC 7603B, which would be expected if tidal interaction is currently taking place. A velocity dispersion and a magnitude are also provided for the companion, enabling consideration of the Faber-Jackson relation. Regrettably, the two possible locations for NGC 7603B in the luminosity-dispersion diagram, corresponding to the redshift distances for it and for NGC 7603, bracket the current uncertainties in this relation, and no firm conclusion can be reached. However, two tentative tertiary distance estimates for NGC 7603B agree better with its own redshift. Other redshift measurements in the vicinity reveal the presence of a group at the same distance as NGC 7603, but there does not appear to be a cluster at the companion's distance (although there is a yet more distant group). No strong anomalies have been found which would force the acceptance of the existence of a noncosmological redshift.


The above article has a publication date of 1986 which is surpassing odd since the Velikovskian website referenced above claimed it had been "hushed up" or ignored for 30 years. Could it be that the psuedoscience quacks lied?




samboct -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/31/2007 7:47:35 AM)

To all who want to really bang their heads against the wall-

DomKen's explanation of the Big Bang left out a couple of troubling issues-

1)  The velocity of expansion during the inflation far exceeds the speed of light.  The inflation is the period of time, measured in a fraction of a second, when the primordial stuff of the universe (not sure it's fair to call it matter- since it wasn't atoms) changed into matter, stars and galaxies- all thousands (millions?) of light years apart.  Clearly for galaxies to be light years apart in a fraction of a second means that the speed of light wasn't the speed limit back then.

2)  Was momentum conserved during the inflation?  In our universe, momentum is always conserved- even if energy isn't.

3)  Why did the stars slow down once they formed?  What happened to Newton's laws of motion?

4)  Yes, it looks like the universe is expanding now- but since we don't know what the forces were on the universe during the inflation, we can't be sure that the universe will keep expanding. Since it looks like something slowed the stars down, maybe that force is still operating and we don't know how to look for it?

MasterFire- thanks for posting that video-it's what I was looking for when I first read this thread.  Saw that back in middle school.  Think that Charles Eames was the guy who came up with the snazzy chair too.

Sam




DomKen -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/31/2007 8:27:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

To all who want to really bang their heads against the wall-

DomKen's explanation of the Big Bang left out a couple of troubling issues-

1)  The velocity of expansion during the inflation far exceeds the speed of light.  The inflation is the period of time, measured in a fraction of a second, when the primordial stuff of the universe (not sure it's fair to call it matter- since it wasn't atoms) changed into matter, stars and galaxies- all thousands (millions?) of light years apart.  Clearly for galaxies to be light years apart in a fraction of a second means that the speed of light wasn't the speed limit back then.

The mechanics of the very early universe is a little hard to get a grip on but I'll try and explain it. Remember all that stuff about the points on the balloon from my earlier post? In the very earliest universe the "balloon" was getting blown up very quickly so the material in the universe was getting farther apart quite rapidly due to there simply being more distance between them independent of any actual motion of those materials. So add in the fact that the very hot very energetic material was in motion at reasonably large fractions of C and you have a situation where it is possible that two distinct particles could have been seperated by the cosmological horizon even though neither particle ever had a velocity greater than C.

quote:

2)  Was momentum conserved during the inflation?  In our universe, momentum is always conserved- even if energy isn't.

In this context inflation is usually used to refer to the expansion of the universe. While this gives the appearance of movement it isn't actually movement it is simply the fact that the distance between two objects has increased. As to momentum of the particles in the early universe that was preserved although by this point so many other factors have acted on all the particles that little if anything of this momentum remains detectable today.

quote:

3)  Why did the stars slow down once they formed?  What happened to Newton's laws of motion?
Once again you're misunderstanding inflation as motion.

quote:

4)  Yes, it looks like the universe is expanding now- but since we don't know what the forces were on the universe during the inflation, we can't be sure that the universe will keep expanding. Since it looks like something slowed the stars down, maybe that force is still operating and we don't know how to look for it?

As I pointed out above the stars didn't so much slow down as the rate at which the space they occupy expands has decreased. As to whether the universe will end in a big crunch, i.e. collapse back to a singularity, or expand until entropy reduces the universe to a cold dead emptiness that is presently unknown. The observed universe is not massive enough to cause a collapse but some observations support the possibility that enough dark matter and energy may exist to fuel a collpase but last I read that is all still just weakly supported hypothis.




julietsierra -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/31/2007 8:29:34 AM)

Ok, LadyEllen nailed it way  back on page 3. It's a standard KWL process.

K: You begin with what the students know. They know familiar distances. By high school, they generally know the order of the planets and some other things. You lead them, through questions to the point where they want to know how big the solar system is. (Yes, I know the question was about the universe) W

So, you teach them how to calculate scale and have them do their own calculations to arrive at scale models of the sun and the planets (mathematics). Then you have them draw those scale models (applying those mathematics to something more pictorial). Then you determine miles to the size of a representative person's foot (you can have everyone measure the length of each other's feet to determine how close to 12 inches someone's foot is - choose the one that's closest). (measurement) Once that's done, you take your classroom outside. This process moves from abstract (the mathmatics) to pictorial (the drawing of the models) to the concrete and therefore, understood by most of the students in your classroom. You begin outside the school. You put the sun on the wall of the school and challenge the students to come up with how many steps the representative student will have to take (more mathematics) to equal the number of miles between the sun and the first planet of our solar system. Have the entire class walk that distance, counting the steps the representative person has taken. Let the most challenged in the class be the "recorder" of the number of steps - they practice counting in that manner. Everyone should have calculators so that they can compute the number of steps needed to be taken. Again, the most challenged are working on calculator skills as they do this. Other more advanced students may be able to do the calculations in their heads and those in the middle can find the answers using technology  

When the class reaches the place where Mercury would be, they tape or otherwise secure the drawn model of Mercury. Then they calculate the distance in steps to where Venus would be. Then to Earth and Mars and all the rest - as far as is possible according to school rules and time available. Each time, they look back to see how far from the sun they've come. Generally, they need only go as far as Mars (the equivalent of much more than a football field) before they are in awe of the distances. Jupiter tend to equate to miles in terms of the steps they have to take so this would not be feasible.

Now, come back in the classroom. Discuss the changes in their views of just their solar system, and what they've learned.

Somewhere in the discussion, even if it's not the most scientifically enthusiastic class, someone's going to bring up the fact that all you've done is their solar system. They'll arrive at what they consider to be the astounding realization that the universe is everything else - as far as they can imagine. One bright kid will generally exclaim that it's just like the game they play with numbers - when they say INFINITY and someone else answers INFINITY PLUS ONE!

And then you pause while that sinks in. L

It takes approximately 4class periods to get this done. One to explain the process. One to do the calculations and draw the models, one to review, walk things out and recap with the discussion. And finally, one to test what they've learned.

You test on the mathematics of drawing to scale and distances from the sun as well as other information regarding the expansion of the universe, etc.

That's what I'd do.

juliet




farglebargle -> RE: If you were a Science Teacher.... (12/31/2007 8:31:10 AM)

Until some smart ass asks a graduate level question like "Is 4 times Infinity the same as Infinity?", and then they're....

OH NO!

Off the lesson-plan!





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