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RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/8/2007 11:16:42 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		Although being a better person, improving my character, and right action are all goals I embrace, enlightenment doesn't really interest me.    The idea that relationships, inter-relationship with others, isn't needed, while I still live and breathe in a world with others, doesn't really interest me as a goal.  

But I don't see bdsm or D/s as a need for me.  I enjoy relating in this way.   And like many other things in life which I have not grown or evolved out of I daresay this will be here to stay.  Well, unless I find a grand compatible guy who isn't so interested.  It not being a need, I can do without for an over all compatible relationship.



_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/8/2007 11:22:50 PM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		Isn't the idea that you don't NEED relationships, but you may decide on them? I mean, aren't Bodhisattvas people who put off enlightenment to help other souls? That's relational. My Buddhism is maybe 101, but I think I'm right on this?

I can see how accepting myself as I am is a part of love of the world. My sexuality is. Whatever form it takes. I don't think that the goal is necessarily to actually forgo everything, just to understand its transient nature and not be ruled by it.

The centrality of my sexuality was definitely changed by some life events, but the nature of it isn't. So was the centrality of food, going out, and a lot of things that are very basic and fundamental to most people. I realize I don't NEED them and won't always have them at my disposal, but when I do, they're there for the enjoyment, for a moment to lose myself in.



< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 7/8/2007 11:28:44 PM >

(in reply to arayofsunshine55)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/9/2007 1:07:48 AM   
TigerNINTails


Posts: 178
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raynchk

Putting the above thought into the realm of bdsm, I wonder if the growth that comes from roleplay, the acting out of fantasies and having needs met transports one to a place where D/s relationships are no longer necessary.



Speaking for myself, my slave, and those that I've trained (at least during their training),  the dynamics generated between two or more people in that effort are far from role play. While we might be in a role, within that dynamic, I, for one, am not playing that role. I am that. Period. It's an important distinction to make.

This is a very deep seated and necessary aspect of the way that I live. Or prefer to live, in times when I must put some of it aside. It's not a place I've put myself in, but rather a way of being that comes from within.

Having your needs met, actually, from my experience, reinforces and inexorably binds the lifestyle into every aspect of someones being. It isn't something that will simply transport you to a place where the dynamics you've grown used to will simply disappear suddenly.

In fact, I'd gather that, from my experience, the more you experience it, the more you partake of anothers service, devotion, offerings, pain, pleasure and dedication, the more you will find it wraps itself through you, and the more you will need it. And want it. The more you do it, the more you internalize it.

Keep in mind, I'm saying "you", not because I pretend to know what "you" want, but rather in a general sense, for any reading. As with all things, some will relate to this, some will not.

So, to me, it's not about something that I do, but rather something that I am. I am a BDSMer. I'm comfortable owning women. I'm a sadist. I'm a guide. I'm a trainer. I'm a slut even. Above all, I'm a human being. All these things will be with me probably beyond death, and I highly doubt I'll be transported to a plane where a D/s or M/s dynamic is no longer necessary. Well, maybe once I die, but that's besides the point.

As it's been said by others, in their own ways... I'll say it in mine... There is no way in hell I could do without this, any more than I could do without eating, breathing, dreaming or any of the other myriad things that I do without concious thought, or question.

So that said, when it comes down to it, some will eventually come to a point where they will walk away from it.

For me, that will never happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: raynchk

Do you eventually outgrow all this stuff or does the 'rope work' just become more intricate and complex along with our partners? Simplistically: Once a Master/dom/sub/slave always a Master/dom/sub/slave?



Out grow it? LOL! Are you kiddin me?! Hahahahaa! Hell no. And I really can't tell you if the people get more complicated, but as times change, so do peoples values and view points. But my rope work has gotten a bit more intricate, or complicated over the years.

Now if you're talking about the framework of my relationships... No... That hasn't gotten more complicated... It's refined, but that's for simplicities sake, not complication.

So to me, yes, once a Master, always a Master. Just because you owned a dog once and don't now, doesn't make you less of a pet owner or dog lover. Once a human, after all, always a human.

My inclinations and attractions to this way of life are very significantly interwoven deeply into my very being, so far as I can tell. I can't imagine being without them. I've been this way as long as I can remember, damn near. I don't plan on that differing just cause I get old and grey.

quote:

ORIGINAL: raynchk

I know that being human has to do with growth and development, with learning about oneself and others, eventually exchanging one set of challenges for another more complex set of challgenges -- and eventually -- one would hope, resulting in a mellowing of the spirit and an appreciation for what one encounters along the way.



This confuses me... Why would one hope that the spirit mellows? I for one hope my spirit continues to rage against the night, while developing a deep, deep, deep appreciation for everything that I encounter along the way.

To me, a mellowing spirit would seem to be one that has resigned to complacency. Just a thought.

But I agree... Part of being human is about growth and development, both in ourselves, and our relationships with others.

So that said, even if ones enlightened... Why would they step down their natural human inclinations of maintaining that contact with other human beings? I know I wouldn't. That I can say with absolute certainty. No matter how satisfied I was being by myself. Or within myself. Or whatever.

And yet again, Tiger strikes with yet one more small book. I guess I'm just not cut out to express something in a few words. Peace.

TNT


_____________________________

Consistent Discipline Renders Punishment Unnecessary

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/9/2007 1:27:55 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not sure I would say you actually outgrow BDSM but your focus certainly shifts over time.
generally you will find folks get into it for physical reasons and explore those aspects for awhile, some will move on to mental aspects and some may shift their focus to spiritual aspects, but the world of BDSM is far too wide and varied to believe that you as a finite being will outgrow it. You might find it becomes something very important or you may find it begins to take a back burner, you may even find it to be no use anymore to you. But I wouldn't call that outgrowing it.



(in reply to TigerNINTails)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/9/2007 7:26:28 AM   
ProfJoe


Posts: 75
Joined: 6/7/2007
Status: offline 		To think of outgrowing my life, I have to think of myself as someone entirely different from what and who I am. Hard to do. I have to think of not needing my self and as not needing others in my life. Even harder to do.

I can easily think of outgrowing the forms or practices I use now, like Archer says in the post before me, but that isn't what you meant, I think. I often outgrow a "need" for a particular person or group, and move on. And I frequently get tired of forums and message boards. But that isn't getting tired of life as I experience it, which has been BDSM for the past 147 years.

Just saying.

Respectfully, Prof Joe

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/9/2007 5:00:20 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I find that I am an ever-evolving creature who is still left with the core that I started with at birth.  My knowledge has grown, my experiences have been from all ends of the spectrum in various endeavors of mine, I have enjoyed success and endured failure.  I have learned from all of it.

My profession as a healthcare provider is called a practice...that is because no one can ever know everything there is to know about what can go wrong with the human body nor how to fix it.  If we could learn this, it would no longer be a practice.  This forces a constant quest for knowledge and a willingness to explore new areas of treatment while not forgetting what has worked before.  I was a good provider when I started...I am much better 24 years later...but there are things I learned then that I still use.  There are things I set aside.

I feel the same way about D/s and BDSM.  I have set aside some concepts I learned when I first started and my thoughts have certainly changed about certain aspects of a D/s dynamic.  My play skills have grown and my areas of limits for myself are fewer.  I have always believed in the mental aspects of D/s and, just as I do in my practice, have begun delving more into the psychological aspects of not only D/s but the BDSM play.  I continue to evolve and grow but I cannot see myself ever achieving full enlightenment which implies a state of perfect harmony. 

I look

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/9/2007 6:53:29 PM   
PairOfDimes


Posts: 324
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline 		One grows and changes in one's sexual and relational preferences, so yes, I imagine one can outgrow BDSM. I know I outgrew switching--it was great fun and wonderful at first, but although I'll bottom now on rare occasions (like, semi-annually), I'm much more picky about how and to whom, and I generally run things. Switching was a phase, a mostly fun one while it lasted, and a learning experience, but something I've outgrown.

[Note: bottoming or submitting is not inherently a less mature or less valid choice, nor is switching less developed than choosing a single role and sticking to it. For *me*, it was something I did when less mature and less confident, both in my sexuality and in general, thus for me, it was something I outgrew.]

As I've developed as a dominant, I've grown fond of service and am continuing to improve my ability to receive it well, and I've learned to co-top with some grace and competence and to publicly top with confidence. So, even without radical role shifts, it's safe to say that one evolves in one's approach to BDSM. I don't know whether I'll always be into hurting people and getting them to do what I want, and I'm not terribly concerned about it. Yes, I've invested money in toys and clothes intending to use them over and over, but I estimated cost-per-use based on the next few years, not on whether I would still be using them fifty years from now. For that matter, those leather miniskirts and six inch heels aren't likely to look good on my eighty-year-old legs then.

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/10/2007 8:23:07 AM   
charismagirrl


Posts: 297
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		LA kind of took part of my words right out of my mouth (or fingers)...not needing realtionships to be fulfilled and not wanting to be with someone is vastly different. It is a much healthier state of being to want to be with someone but to know that you are there by choice and not because you need it to feel whole. (the whole idea of "yeah i could live without you but i'd much rather live with you."

As far as out growing things; Certainly there could be activities that one could grow out of or tire of, but if you are being true to your nature and not simply role playing then out growing the dynamics of the realtionship itself seems doubtful (atleast to me)

~cherry


_____________________________

For today i won't say but...
For today i wont say just...
For today i will simply obey....
For today i will trust that You are right...
For always i will be your imperfect slave

http://www.mycollarspace.com

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/10/2007 8:51:22 AM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		My spiritual existence is based on Buddhism.. the Theravada school of Buddhism.

The concepts of the OP to me are strange.

Take the bedrock of Buddhism.. I take refuge in the Dhamma (what Christians would call God), I take refuge in the Buddha, I take refuge in the Sangha (community)..

But what is enlightenment? And enlightenment when it comes to BDSM? And how does enlightenment in BDSM mean outgrowing relationships?

Permanence is illusion - this is a pretty universal Buddhist concept. We live in a world of change, we change, our relationships change, our relationships to ourselves and to others change, therefore no two experiences or relationships are ever quite the same.

Therefore we constantly grow, develop, mature, and learn. But each and every one of us has our own path and journey.

I am in a relationship which I will never outgrow, and I will probably die before I achieve this enlightenment with BDSM.

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/10/2007 12:06:54 PM   
Lewcifer


Posts: 126
Joined: 5/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raynchk
I have a theory/belief that comes from C'han Buddhism. It goes something like this: when one achieves enlightenment (or self realization) there is a blending of the yin and yang energies and one becomes fully self-contained. The need for relationships (with the same or opposite sex) is gone, and one is left to experience the internal bliss of meditation and cavorting with internal archetypical energies of the psyche or *God* realization as some choose to describe it.


I'm an atheist, so I don't have any imaginary friends that I look up to.  That includes entities and mystical energies that flow from our spirits and all that crap.  So, the above paragraph was meaningless to me.  Let's move on to the real question...

quote:

Putting the above thought into the realm of bdsm, I wonder if the growth that comes from roleplay, the acting out of fantasies and having needs met transports one to a place where D/s relationships are no longer necessary. Do you eventually outgrow all this stuff or does the 'rope work' just become more intricate and complex along with our partners? Simplistically: Once a Master/dom/sub/slave always a Master/dom/sub/slave?


Do you outgrow your like or dislike of spaghetti and meatballs, as a result of acting out your desire to eat same on occassion, over a long period of time?  Your questions are incongruous, and not related.

Before Y/you were a Master/done/sub/slave, you were none of those at all.  Yet, over time, Y/you transformed from "none of the above" to "one or more of the above."  What makes Y/you think Y/you can't transform again?  If part of the human credo is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain (personal definitions apply), then it would seem likely that W/we'd ascend through the choices as necessary to achieve those goals... and as the goals redefine themselves to U/us.

quote:

I know that being human has to do with growth and development, with learning about oneself and others, eventually exchanging one set of challenges for another more complex set of challgenges -- and eventually -- one would hope, resulting in a mellowing of the spirit and an appreciation for what one encounters along the way.


Again, I have to question the congruity of your various statements, which you erroneously run together in a failed attempt to equate cause and effect.  Being human does not have much to do with "exchanging one set of challenges for another more complex set" - someone's personal dynamics might have something to do with that, but to equate that with "the way of all humans" is preposterous and unsubstantiated.

That's the problem with ascribing imaginary qualities to things... it all ends in psycho-babble.



_____________________________

I am fortunate... My wife is also My friend, lover and slave.

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/10/2007 12:15:06 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I wouldn't call myself enlightened but I do know that my NEED to be in a relationship has definately become close to nonexistant. Please note I said "need". That being said, it does not mean I am not open to the idea if the right person should come along. I enjoy sharing my life with others wether they be family, friends or a lover. I am just not running around, looking high and low, feeling that my life is somehow imcomplete without.

So yes, I do believe that you can outgrow that "need" but not necessarily the desire or ability.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/10/2007 12:44:25 PM   
PAcpllooking


Posts: 73
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		For us it is who we are. So grow out of it I dont see how.
Its not a kink or fantasy its how we live, I lead, she follows. Simple as that.

William

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/10/2007 12:57:29 PM   
MsOpal


Posts: 244
Joined: 8/31/2006
Status: offline 		We grow, the dynamics may alter, we morph into (hopefully) better selves.  I have learned to never say "never" but it is highly doubtful that Argent or myself will ever "outgrow" doing wiitwd.  It is not a 'lifestyle', it is our life.  It is who we are - inside. Even if age, health, ability, strenght, change enough in the oncoming years that we find the practice of bdsm difficult, the relationship dynamics of the Ds are just who we are inside and I really cannot see that going away, ever.
MsO.


_____________________________

He held out His hand and said "Step into the abyss with me."

and I did.

(in reply to PAcpllooking)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/10/2007 1:21:46 PM   
raynchk


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the well-written, thoughtful replies. I appreciate your honesty and candor and think it speaks highly of the community as a whole.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/10/2007 11:57:33 PM   
SirButchTX


Posts: 29
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		I do not believe that we ever "outgrow" BDSM. I do believe that there are those who come in, stick around, learn a few tricks, then go home and use those tricks in their bedroom without ever having understood the underlying dynamics of BDSM. As wide and varied as this lifestyle can be, it is also very narrow when we confine it to our own lives. As people stick around for some time, they begin to see what is under the trappings of a pretty rope dress or fancy shibari exhibition. They see the exchange of energies. The see the subtlties of silent service. The mind begins to wrap around new concepts...our narrowed outlook has widened a little.
Sure, we get burnout like anyone else..we get tired of watching the wannabes wrecking folks that would make great slaves given a little decent guidance....yes, that happens, but we come back. It's not an addiction we can kick. It haunts our dreams. There is no escape.

SirButch.

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/11/2007 11:59:07 AM   
submittous


Posts: 345
Joined: 6/12/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think I will outgrow my need for bdsm as a part of my life. I went to my first dungeon in 1967 and have been as actively involved as I could be ever since. Sometimes I have had control of my life and been able tofocus on bdsm, other times life has controlled me and I have wandered. Now being retired Iris and I are able to focus more on bdsm than ever... well at least when we have access to the right slaves.

My orientation, interests and needs have all evolved over that time, most of the things I thought I "needed" turned out to be short term interests and most of the things I am attracted to now looked over the top and extreme 40 years ago. I expect that evolution to continue but I don't think  I will reach a point where I transcend my bdsm drives.... but then again I don't think I will reach enlightenment in the  Buddhist sense in this life either, just to continue on the path of growth seems good to me in both endeavours.

Bill 

_____________________________

"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/12/2007 8:52:36 AM   
marsman


Posts: 115
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raynchk

I am directing this question to those with long experience in this lifestyle...

I have a theory/belief that comes from C'han Buddhism. It goes something like this: when one achieves enlightenment (or self realization) there is a blending of the yin and yang energies and one becomes fully self-contained. The need for relationships (with the same or opposite sex) is gone, and one is left to experience the internal bliss of meditation and cavorting with internal archetypical energies of the psyche or *God* realization as some choose to describe it.

I would like to respond to this with some questions:

What do you do after enlightenment?

That question is a corollary to the bigger question:

Why did the supreme being create this playground (Earth) in the first place?
(hint: He/she is already in a state of bliss and *God* realization...)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raynchk
Putting the above thought into the realm of bdsm, I wonder if the growth that comes from roleplay, the acting out of fantasies and having needs met transports one to a place where D/s relationships are no longer necessary. Do you eventually outgrow all this stuff or does the 'rope work' just become more intricate and complex along with our partners? Simplistically: Once a Master/dom/sub/slave always a Master/dom/sub/slave?

I know that being human has to do with growth and development, with learning about oneself and others, eventually exchanging one set of challenges for another more complex set of challgenges -- and eventually -- one would hope, resulting in a mellowing of the spirit and an appreciation for what one encounters along the way.

For me, I get sexually aroused by Dominant play. It is something I was born with.

So I believe what you are asking then is "Does one 'outgrow' sexual desire on the path to liberation ?"

The life of the Buddha is instructional here.

At one point in his life, the Buddha gave up sex, his family and all his worldly possessions and followed other Hindu ascetics on their path to liberation.

Eventually he left his ascetic friends and he abandoned the ascetic path in order to make his own path. Then he found "enlightenment."

He found his goal not by "abandoning" things along the way as the ascetics were doing, but by "concentrating" on his goal.

That old saying, "don't stop to smell the flowers", is not a value judgement about flowers, it is just another way
of saying, "keep your eyes on the road."

Concentrate on your goal and just ignore other things in order to reach the top.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But sooner or later you will succeed and then come back to the earlier question,

"What do you do after enlightenment?"

_____________________________

Sex without love is an empty experience, but, as empty experiences go, it's one of the best.
-- Woody Allen


(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/12/2007 3:52:18 PM   
CitizenCane


Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raynchk

I am directing this question to those with long experience in this lifestyle...

I have a theory/belief that comes from C'han Buddhism. It goes something like this: when one achieves enlightenment (or self realization) there is a blending of the yin and yang energies and one becomes fully self-contained. The need for relationships (with the same or opposite sex) is gone, and one is left to experience the internal bliss of meditation and cavorting with internal archetypical energies of the psyche or *God* realization as some choose to describe it.

Putting the above thought into the realm of bdsm, I wonder if the growth that comes from roleplay, the acting out of fantasies and having needs met transports one to a place where D/s relationships are no longer necessary. Do you eventually outgrow all this stuff or does the 'rope work' just become more intricate and complex along with our partners? Simplistically: Once a Master/dom/sub/slave always a Master/dom/sub/slave?

I know that being human has to do with growth and development, with learning about oneself and others, eventually exchanging one set of challenges for another more complex set of challgenges -- and eventually -- one would hope, resulting in a mellowing of the spirit and an appreciation for what one encounters along the way.


As a Taoist, I think that Enlightenment is about grasping your relationship to everything, and though one could argue that being connected with everything is a form of self-containment, it has a rather different meaning than what you present here.  I do agree though, that as one understands the world and one's self better, that it's quite natural for the form of those relationships to change- impossible for them not to, in fact.  They certainly have for me, but so far there's evidence that I'm losing interest in tying up pretty girls. Like many things, the outward form remains, but the internal meaning changes.



(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/12/2007 5:08:58 PM   
Deboyce


Posts: 36
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		One does not have to spend endless hours contemplating the complexities’ of simplicity or meditate until they hear the sound of one hand clapping to recognize those natural driving forces from within. What is, is, and nothing more be said about it. Of course, I share your thinking.

(in reply to daddysliloneds)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Outgrowing BDSM - 7/13/2007 8:22:43 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: raynchk


I have a theory/belief that comes from C'han Buddhism. It goes something like this: when one achieves enlightenment (or self realization) there is a blending of the yin and yang energies and one becomes fully self-contained. The need for relationships (with the same or opposite sex) is gone, and one is left to experience the internal bliss of meditation and cavorting with internal archetypical energies of the psyche or *God* realization as some choose to describe it.


Answering from a Daoist point of view, self-containment is not enlightenment and while "need" for physical relationships may eventual transfer to "desire" as one becomes enlightened, i feel it enhances the physical enteractment between individuals particularly in D/s. Speaking from a personal standpoint...my spiritual beliefs enhance my BDSM activities to the point that neither exists without the other~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to raynchk)
Profile   Post #: 40
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