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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:04:20 AM

Vendaval

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So how did class go?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Bah. Now I have a mental image of lesbian s&m in my head. Thanks a lot. I'm sure the teacher will love it when a Fruedian slip causes me to explain a chemical reaction mechanism in terms of the molecules whipping eachother's bare bottoms, knocking electrons off in the process because they're been naughty ions and deserved it.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:06:38 AM

Vendaval

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Why, caitlyn dear, we all know you are a perfect little angel!

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I would make an innocent look, but:

a) nobody would believe it ...
b) I don't have one anyway ...

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:14:41 AM

Vendaval

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Here's the 411 guys,

If you are looking for a one night stand be up front and say so. Bring your own condoms in the right size and shape and materials for your penis. Even better, get a variety of lubed, unlubed, spermicide, latex and polyurethane and some flavored ones too.

If you start dating and move on into a relationship, discuss what birth control is best and what you will both do if the contraception fails. Have a plan for any emergencies that may happen. And follow through on that plan together.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Probably by telling the most pro-choice girls you've had a vestectomy (sp?). Because, of course, you don't think women should have to go through the trouble of even thinking of abortion due to a man's actions.

Hmmmmmm.....It is unfortunate that the responsibility of birth control tends to fall on the woman.....I'm not sure what you mean regarding your last sentence....Either way....Have as many abortions as you want till your uterus falls out....Still don't quite see how any of us are going to get some snapper out of this thread.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 7:47:53 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I apologize if I sound strident, CuriousLord, but I have yet to meet a Right-To-Lifer who can answer that question.

I think I answered it. I think Senator Brownbeck answered it in the last Republican debate.

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Post #: 244

RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 8:23:40 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

BATON ROUGE, Louisiana - Louisiana became the first American state Friday to outlaw a controversial abortion procedure that involves partially removing the fetus intact from a woman's uterus, then crushing or cutting its skull to complete the abortion.

The new law allows the procedure in only one situation at any time during pregnancy: when failure to perform it would endanger the mother's life. The procedure would be a crime in all other cases, even if the pregnancy is expected to cause health problems for the mother.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19753751

The term 'partial birth' was coined in the mid-nineties by a pro-life congressman. The purpose of naming the procedure that way was to mobilise pro-lifers around this particular issue with the aim to eventually bring a complete ban on all abortions in the United States. The ugly semantics worked their sweet way into the subconscious of the nation. Soon, people were up in arms over a procedure that's a last resort medical decision made by doctors.

Intact D&E isn't a pretty thing. Then again few medical interventions belong in Disneyworld. But what's the alternative? Suppose a woman's pregnancy is found to be going badly, to the point where the fetus will die at birth, or even before. Imagine such a pregnancy jeopardises the woman's health to the point she may die from it. Let's assume nobody here has yet decided that this woman should be denied the right to terminate a pregnancy that's endangering her life. The doctors have two choices: they can tear the fetus from limb to limb in utero and extract it that way, thus causing a huge risk of uterine tearing - and possibly death to the woman. Or they can decide to perform an intact D&E.

If they do this, the fetus is anaesthetized (anaesthesia given to the woman passes through the placenta). It means it is taken out of the woman's body intact. It seems much more respectful for all concerned, and especially to the fetus. I suspect it must be a little difficult on the practionner: but they are highly trained professional people.

I have yet to see why this ban matters to those who would like to prevent abortions, since it will not prevent a single abortion from occurring. It will only mean that doctors will use a technique that kills the fetus just as surely as intact D&E, in a more gruesome way, and with a real possibility of producing more complications for the woman. Perhaps that's what they want, a return to the backstreet abortions of old, where woman were torn open with metal wire and knitting needles?

It matters to me that doctors are able to make the medical decisions they deem best for their patients without having people with a political agenda intervene with those decisions.

I trust the doctors more than those that govern us. Fancy that, aye?

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 8:45:09 AM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It matters to me that doctors are able to make the medical decisions they deem best for their patients without having people with a political agenda intervene with those decisions.

It always makes me deeply suspicious of anything where the U.S. is the lone country using a certain term or diagnosis. In almost all cases it means something very fishy is being foisted on a probably unsuspecting public from some segment of the political spectrum. For some reason the far-right, nutter christian segment figures most prominently and routinely.

-----

Someone mentioned people having agendas - people always have an agenda of some kind, even if it's just trying to come across as if they don't have one.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 11:20:36 AM

caitlyn

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Anything having to do with the healthcare industry in the United States, needs to be viewed with suspicion.

Healthcare, for profit ... one and all.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:17:03 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
If they do this, the fetus is anaesthetized (anaesthesia given to the woman passes through the placenta). It means it is taken out of the woman's body intact. It seems much more respectful for all concerned, and especially to the fetus. I suspect it must be a little difficult on the practionner: but they are highly trained professional people.

Anesthesia given to a pregnant woman does not produce the same levels of anesthesia in the fetus. I also think we must have different definitions of intact. To me, a baby with it's brains scrambled, sucked out and skull crushed is far from intact. I don't see that as more respectful, especially to the fetus.

According to the link below, the number of medically necessary abortions is extremely low, a total of 1.3%. Another 0.3% as a result of rape. That leaves over 98% of all abortions being done in this country electively. Those numbers do not justify the number of partial birth abortions performed annually as being performed for reasons of medical necessity.

quote:

Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape or incest, 0.3%; in cases of risk to maternal health or life, 1%; and in cases of fetal abnormality, 0.5%. About 98% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control.

Of those that are medically necessary I would have to think that the vast majority are done earlier in pregnancy when it is not necessary to use partial birth as the only option.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:41:07 PM

SugarMyChurro

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mistoferin:

Don't you think that a big part of the problem is how this society seems to want to keep women/couples in the dark ages of contraception? There is so much religious opposition to so many different aspects of adult sexual life that it just boggles the mind. Of course, the results are as you say - overuse of a procedure that should be used but very sparingly.

But I put that sad fact squarely at the feet of the nutters that want to keep sex education down and easy access to contraceptives beyond the reach of our sexually maturing youth.

It makes no sense to me. If we want to avoid performing abortions generally, and these so-called "partial birth abortions" in particular, then we must use education to accomplish that goal. Abstinence programs and the other madness I hear about are just a straight line to maintaining status quo and the ignorance that surrounds us.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:50:28 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

The only thing I really learned from this thread is that so many people have an agenda.. so many are unable, and, perhaps even moreso, unwilling to consider anything that might not be inline with their goals..

Don't get me wrong. It's a good thing to know.

I apologize if I sound strident, CuriousLord, but I have yet to meet a Right-To-Lifer who can answer that question.

I generally have this sort of issue with most people who speak in infinitives. The problem with using words like always, never, impossible, etc., is that the argument logically fails when the contradictory example is presented.

I am simply presenting the contradictory example to the anti-abortion arguments.

What question is it?

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:51:46 PM

domiguy

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All I have learned is that I am right and the rest of you are bogarting my air.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:51:50 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

So how did class go?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Bah. Now I have a mental image of lesbian s&m in my head. Thanks a lot. I'm sure the teacher will love it when a Fruedian slip causes me to explain a chemical reaction mechanism in terms of the molecules whipping eachother's bare bottoms, knocking electrons off in the process because they're been naughty ions and deserved it.

Seems the professor picked up on it. He was rather sadistic in the administration of the exam to a class of well over a hundred. One hell of an orgy, if you ask me.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:53:40 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Here's the 411 guys,

If you are looking for a one night stand be up front and say so. Bring your own condoms in the right size and shape and materials for your penis. Even better, get a variety of lubed, unlubed, spermicide, latex and polyurethane and some flavored ones too.

If you start dating and move on into a relationship, discuss what birth control is best and what you will both do if the contraception fails. Have a plan for any emergencies that may happen. And follow through on that plan together.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Probably by telling the most pro-choice girls you've had a vestectomy (sp?). Because, of course, you don't think women should have to go through the trouble of even thinking of abortion due to a man's actions.

Hmmmmmm.....It is unfortunate that the responsibility of birth control tends to fall on the woman.....I'm not sure what you mean regarding your last sentence....Either way....Have as many abortions as you want till your uterus falls out....Still don't quite see how any of us are going to get some snapper out of this thread.

Since when was any of this serious? Or is there something more behind your request for condoms and lubes of various types..?

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 12:54:44 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

All I have learned is that I am right and the rest of you are bogarting my air.

I got a new lab partner yesterday. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear he was you.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 1:03:56 PM

KatyLied

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Erin, what I get from reading about the partial birth (D&E or D&X or whatever it's called) abortion is that it dilates the cervix (hugely) but there are no contractions (no labor). I'm not sure why it's necessary, to be honest. Unless it would risk the mother to have a full out labor and/or c-section. It's gruesome and accounts for a very small percentage of abortions. I'm at a loss as to why a woman would wait that long for an elective abortion. I guess there are some medical reasons to induce birth in that manner, anencephaly is often mentioned, but I'm still not clear on why that type of birth would be the favored option.

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 7/20/2007 1:04:49 PM >

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 1:10:23 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

See post 222. I conceded that I wasn't answering yuur question directly, but rather answering how an abortion could still be allowed during rape.

Basicly it boils down to it would still be murder, but the rapist would be charged for the murder. Since it was his actions that led to the forced pregnancy.

So technically, the child would be murdered under the law at the behest of the State, who would then charge somebody else for the child's murder.

Seems to stretch the logical arguments presented by Right-To-Lifers rather circuitously.

Would you take a turn performing the abortion? Or is this one of those NIMBY things. As long as you dont see it happening you can pretend it never happened.

Sinergy

p.s. NIMBY is an acronym for "Not In My BackYard." The sort of people who want coal fired power plants to produce inexpensive (to them) power, as long as they dont have to breath the exhaust.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 1:10:44 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

All I have learned is that I am right and the rest of you are bogarting my air.

I got a new lab partner yesterday. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear he was you.

So what are you and your new buddy doing this weekend?

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 1:19:39 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

mistoferin:

Don't you think that a big part of the problem is how this society seems to want to keep women/couples in the dark ages of contraception?

Actually I don't. I can see that it may indeed be a contributing factor but I find it amazing that adult women (or women who think they are mature enough to have sexual relationships) can find information and access to abortions when they get themselves in a bind....but those same women can't find access to contraception? Information and access to contraception is more widely available here now more than ever before.

I think that the largest part of the problem is that in this society people tend to be impulsive when it comes to satisfying their own needs, disassociating or discounting the risks of their behavior from the behavior itself. It has also become a society where people frequently turn their backs on their responsibilities. To make matters worse, we have come to place a very high value on doing things the easiest way possible.

Raising children is not an easy thing to do. It means that life will be more complicated at times and sacrifices will have to be made. Many people seem to not be able to handle that today. That is evidenced not only by the rates of abortions but also by the numbers of single parent homes.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 7/20/2007 1:22:19 PM >

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 1:39:04 PM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I think that the largest part of the problem is that in this society people tend to be impulsive when it comes to satisfying their own needs, disassociating or discounting the risks of their behavior from the behavior itself. It has also become a society where people frequently turn their backs on their responsibilities. To make matters worse, we have come to place a very high value on doing things the easiest way possible.

Exactly, which is why information and contraception needs to be more accessible, not less so.

I think I am find a "punishing" quality in your last reply - that people must suffer the consequences of being irresponsible and taking the easy way out. We have already noticed that problem, but your answer is not a viable solution.

I am saying that given that people are self-centered assholes, let's make it easy for them to choose better options up front. Making it harder just reveals the character flaws in people of which we are already painfully aware.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/20/2007 1:56:26 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
Exactly, which is why information and contraception needs to be more accessible, not less so.

I think I am find a "punishing" quality in your last reply - that people must suffer the consequences of being irresponsible and taking the easy way out. We have already noticed that problem, but your answer is not a viable solution.

I am saying that given that people are self-centered assholes, let's make it easy for them to choose better options up front. Making it harder just reveals the character flaws in people of which we are already painfully aware.

I believe information and contraception are far more accessible now than ever before.

No, no punishing. But then again I don't see accepting and living up to one's responsibilities as punishing. I simply see it as being the right thing to do. Sometimes it's difficult yes, but not a punishment. I believe the solution lies in a more proactive approach, rather than a reactive one. I am in agreement with you, there needs to be ever increasing education. But I also believe that we need to be more diligent in instilling a sense of personal responsibility and accountability in our children. Unfortunately, the best way to do that is by example and outstanding examples of those who practice such are in short supply. I also think that we need to teach our children that it's not all about them all the time. "No" is not a bad word for them to learn.

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There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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