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RE: animal behavior issue? - 7/31/2007 6:59:07 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It is not correct for an animal to have a higher status than a human.


Oh, I see.

Does this come from the Big Book of Answers that I've been hearing so much about?

quote:


Dog psychology, I have been told, requires that when a child in the household is punished, the dog is punished simultaneously - even though the dog be innocent.


Err... no. That's a gross misunderstanding.

What you're misunderstanding here, is that the dog must know its place.

That does not entail punishing it for no wrongdoing.

quote:


D/s play may even confuse the dog as concerns his own status.


A dog's status is easy to establish, easy to maintain, and easy to change.

All the pack leader needs to do, is to decide where the newcomer fits, and either enforce it, or teach the newcomer to enforce it. If the pack leader wants the newcomer to be above the dog in status, the newcomer must be treated as such. If the pack leader wants the newcomer to be below the dog in status, same thing. And in both instances, the dog will treat the newcomer according to the status assigned by the pack leader.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: animal behavior issue? - 7/31/2007 7:11:59 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Guys- the dog isn't a sub. It's not something for him to dominate. It's another living being.


Dogs are social animals, like humans, and like most social animals, power dynamics are part of their social interactions. Their need for clear power dynamics exceeds that of a human. A dog who does not know its place is rarely a happy dog. That place may be as head of the household (alpha), as bottom rung (omega), or somewhere in between (beta). Provide and care for it, and it will be happy in any of these roles, except the alpha role, which happens to entail responsibilities it cannot meet, which will cause it no end of unhappiness.

quote:


And, yes, you can beat a dog into submission.


Not quite, and I'd take the same approach to any owner I saw employing that "strategy".
This is no different from how you can beat a spouse or child into submission.
And in no way more acceptable, as far as I am concerned.

quote:


Is this really what you people want pets for?


No. I want companionship.

One of my dogs was an unfortunate mix. That particular mix becomes ridden with anxiety and paranoia to the point where it will eventually have to be put out of its misery, with many attacking their owners before that time. Our vet has seen one single case live longer than 18 months. That was my dog. At 4 years of age, it had reached the break-even point between the plus from the joy of life and the minus from the genetic flaw (I'm talking dog POV here, not human POV, we'd not put it down if it weren't the best thing for it). The vet didn't know how we did it, and was slack-jawed to hear how mild the progression had been. But the vet unfortunately didn't know any way to treat it either (veterinary medicine, I have since learned, is rather crappy in Norway).

In short, I treat my dogs well, and I know how to do so.

But even doing half as well isn't rocket science.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: animal behavior issue? - 7/31/2007 7:21:31 PM   
TankII7871


Posts: 174
Joined: 4/22/2005
Status: offline 		OK you have to keep in mind that when dogs go pee they are leaving a message for other dogs.  So get off this thread asking for help and take the dog to the doggie boards. He has something to tell the others (probably to bitch about the new human female

Eric

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: animal behavior issue? - 7/31/2007 7:23:02 PM   
hammernhoney


Posts: 268
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		Dogs like any other animals must be taught who's in charge,This doesn't mean to whip or hurt them.Most times its fear that makes them vicious...WE have horses and use the same method on them as we use on our dogs..WE have protection dogs, they were trained by Diane and THEY must be under control at all times..The pack will work it out,HERE the dominant dog is MS TIFFANY the 5 pound pom DOM smiles..She eats first and then the rest in pack order...Just goes to show you size isn't every thing its the size of the heart that counts...bounty

< Message edited by hammernhoney -- 7/31/2007 7:25:51 PM >

_____________________________

STEP INTO MY DARKNESS AND LET THE LIGHT OF YOUR SUBMISSION SHINE..

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: animal behavior issue? - 7/31/2007 11:34:28 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
It is not correct for an animal to have a higher status than a human.

Does this come from the Big Book of Answers that I've been hearing so much about?

Yes, as far as concerns spiritual status. My reasoning is that among the species indigenous to our world the human species is the most evolved spiritually. Dominance status is another matter, I realize now upon reflection. I erred in jumping from spiritual status to dominance status.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Dog psychology, I have been told, requires that when a child in the household is punished, the dog is punished simultaneously - even though the dog be innocent.

Err... no. That's a gross misunderstanding.
What you're misunderstanding here, is that the dog must know its place.
That does not entail punishing it for no wrongdoing.

I stand corrected. It was something that I was told two months ago and never myself applied. Thank you.

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/31/2007 11:52:49 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: animal behavior issue? - 7/31/2007 11:51:12 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		As a general guideline, anytime a toilet training routine is working don't do anything to change it, whether the individual in question is a critter, a small unmentionable or an adult.  Think of how upset you would be if someone was always hiding the toilet paper or leaving the lid up!
 
The dog also needs his exercise and this seems to be one of the duties your Master has assigned to you.  Ultimately how your Master disciplines and controls his pet is up to him, not you.
 
And think of how long this dog has been in his life and what that love and loyalty means to him.  Chill out and don't over-react to Pugsly.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/1/2007 6:33:42 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		woof

I've been staring at this thread for two days now.

I just piddled on the floor.

me bad.

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/1/2007 6:41:36 AM   
MistressDiane


Posts: 334
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch


Here is how that scenario looks to me:
Stop taking the dog outside to relieve himself, set him up for failure by sticking him in an area where YOU expect him to relieve himself  but he has NO idea that is what you expect of him, then torture him when he can't hold it anymore...



I agree whole heartedly.

< Message edited by MistressDiane -- 8/1/2007 6:42:09 AM >

_____________________________

Ms. Diane
"..and they who danced were thought insane by those who refused to hear the music." ~Monet

*Suffer BayBeee!!!!!*

"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/1/2007 7:08:13 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Rule:
quote:

Aswad:
quote:

Rule:
It is not correct for an animal to have a higher status than a human.

Does this come from the Big Book of Answers that I've been hearing so much about?

Yes, as far as concerns spiritual status.


Ah.

And where, pray tell, may I find this Big Book of Answers that delineates spiritual status?

quote:

My reasoning is that among the species indigenous to our world the human species is the most evolved spiritually.


Your reasoning unsupported, and I dispute your proposition. For instance, without intending offense, I would consider a Czech wolfdog more spiritually evolved than a human who hates both Judaism and Islam, but not Christianity, as your profile states. Perhaps you might want to offer support for the proposition and the reasoning that follows it, or cede the point as a matter of opinion?

quote:

Dominance status is another matter, I realize now upon reflection. I erred in jumping from spiritual status to dominance status.


That is the least error in this context.

quote:

Rule:
I stand corrected. It was something that I was told two months ago and never myself applied. Thank you.


You are welcome. There are many misconceptions about animals out there.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/1/2007 2:15:32 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Guys- the dog isn't a sub. It's not something for him to dominate. It's another living being.


Dogs are social animals, like humans, and like most social animals, power dynamics are part of their social interactions. Their need for clear power dynamics exceeds that of a human. A dog who does not know its place is rarely a happy dog. That place may be as head of the household (alpha), as bottom rung (omega), or somewhere in between (beta). Provide and care for it, and it will be happy in any of these roles, except the alpha role, which happens to entail responsibilities it cannot meet, which will cause it no end of unhappiness.


My point wasn't that the dog should be considered an equal in decissions.  It was that the dog isn't a sub.

In BDSM, domination often happens for the simple sake of domination- not for any otherwise practical ends.  This is not what's needed here- and this is why I point out it's not a dominiance issue.  The dog simply needs to be compelled to act in a manner acceptable- ideally, pleasing- to all parties, itself included.  And the BDSM answer of "discipline" does not strike me as the a practical vechile for such an argument to the animal.

The animal is, after all, correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:


And, yes, you can beat a dog into submission.


Not quite, and I'd take the same approach to any owner I saw employing that "strategy".
This is no different from how you can beat a spouse or child into submission.
And in no way more acceptable, as far as I am concerned.


Yeah.  Kind of.. ..irritating, too.

So many people see in black and white (on so many things).. being beat into submission versus not.. instead of the spectrum.  I suppose detecting elements of such in sentiments expressed here had me a little disgusted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:


Is this really what you people want pets for?


No. I want companionship.

One of my dogs was an unfortunate mix. That particular mix becomes ridden with anxiety and paranoia to the point where it will eventually have to be put out of its misery, with many attacking their owners before that time. Our vet has seen one single case live longer than 18 months. That was my dog. At 4 years of age, it had reached the break-even point between the plus from the joy of life and the minus from the genetic flaw (I'm talking dog POV here, not human POV, we'd not put it down if it weren't the best thing for it). The vet didn't know how we did it, and was slack-jawed to hear how mild the progression had been. But the vet unfortunately didn't know any way to treat it either (veterinary medicine, I have since learned, is rather crappy in Norway).

In short, I treat my dogs well, and I know how to do so.

But even doing half as well isn't rocket science.


I'm sorry to hear about the unfortunate condition of dog, and it's good to hear you treated it so well.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/1/2007 3:47:18 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		rumor has it, this dudes g/f stopped walking this dog like he was used to...

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3939864&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to stateira)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/1/2007 5:30:24 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

My point wasn't that the dog should be considered an equal in decissions.  It was that the dog isn't a sub.


And mine is that a dog is a lifestyle switch.
Dogs submit or dominate, it's their way.

Treat it differently, and it lacks anything to peg its understanding of the social structure on.

quote:


The dog simply needs to be compelled to act in a manner acceptable- ideally, pleasing- to all parties, itself included. 


Well, I would not say compelled.
A dog strives to act in an acceptable manner.
Except when the owner is failing to treat it properly.
And that includes when the owner doesn't give it a hierarchy.

quote:


And the BDSM answer of "discipline" does not strike me as the a practical vechile for such an argument to the animal.


I never suggested that BDSM-style discipline is the right way to "argue" with the animal.

quote:


The animal is, after all, correct.


Generally, yes.

quote:


I suppose detecting elements of such in sentiments expressed here had me a little disgusted.


I'm hoping you did not refer to what I said.
My comment was based on the idea of universality in ethics.

If person A thinks it is okay to do some thing Q to person B for reason X, then person A has (in my view, as I subscribe to universality/reciprocality in ethics) legitimized (in fact, in a way, consented to by way of argument; I'm just carrying the argument to its logical conclusion) that anyone can do to person A that same thing Q for the same reason X.

quote:


I'm sorry to hear about the unfortunate condition of dog, and it's good to hear you treated it so well.


Shit happens and we deal. But, yeah, I can be an okay guy sometimes, or so I hear.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/2/2007 7:18:57 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		I always told my kids 'always assume a cat/dog/horse etc..could have the eyes of Jesus'.  Meaning: We say and do things in front of a pet or to them that we wouldn't dream of doing in front of others, be it strangers, family or friends.  We cross rooms naked because we forget a bathtowel, we pick our noses while we are on the phone, bite our nails during a horror film. WE do though, hopefully, toss the pet gently from the room when we feel need to masturbate or play with another. lol.

To have a pet and not treat it as though it has rights and feelings is just dead-wrong.  I wouldn't want to be at the end of my life and the only witness to some sinful behaviour is my former cats who ratted me out to God and told Him that I was not a good person.

I try not to act any different around a pet than I would around a small child. Just because they cannot verbalize that they are uncomfortable with your behaviour (sloth, being the one in this case), doesn't mean it doesn't 'matter' to them.  Be kind to the animals, it proves how good of a human being you are when you treat a lesser creature with dignity.  

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/2/2007 7:36:51 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

I always told my kids 'always assume a cat/dog/horse etc..could have the eyes of Jesus'.  Meaning: We say and do things in front of a pet or to them that we wouldn't dream of doing in front of others, be it strangers, family or friends.  We cross rooms naked because we forget a bathtowel, we pick our noses while we are on the phone, bite our nails during a horror film. WE do though, hopefully, toss the pet gently from the room when we feel need to masturbate or play with another. lol.

To have a pet and not treat it as though it has rights and feelings is just dead-wrong.  I wouldn't want to be at the end of my life and the only witness to some sinful behaviour is my former cats who ratted me out to God and told Him that I was not a good person.

I try not to act any different around a pet than I would around a small child. Just because they cannot verbalize that they are uncomfortable with your behaviour (sloth, being the one in this case), doesn't mean it doesn't 'matter' to them.  Be kind to the animals, it proves how good of a human being you are when you treat a lesser creature with dignity.  


We do?
(I don't, sex isn't dirty and the pets aren't voyeurs... that I know of).

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/2/2007 8:00:15 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		You obviously don't have a cat.
They get mighty curious at times.
And vibrators purr, or so they think.

It can be a real mood-killer when they suddenly jump onto the bed.
Or, worse yet, jump onto your chest, walk to your face, and purr.
For me, that pretty much heralds the end of the day's workout.
And not in any even remotely satisfying way, I might add...

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/2/2007 8:18:24 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		AAAaaa lol NOooo

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/2/2007 12:05:42 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		My thoughts exactly.

Minus the lol part.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to came4U)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/8/2007 1:49:05 AM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		that is a myth, it's been proven you can teach older dogs new tricks, the animal however has to be willing to listen and learn, and that has nothing to do with age;
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

you cant teach an old dog new tricks......let the old pug keep his routine...sheesh


_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/8/2007 2:38:10 AM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		My x's dog w*ould watch us have sex, as if the act fasinated him quite so, and then would come sniff the area I'd been laying after we got up. Sometimes my dog would try to hump my x while we tried to engage in play, and THEN we did run the dog out lol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

. WE do though, hopefully, toss the pet gently from the room when we feel need to masturbate or play with another. lol.



We do?
(I don't, sex isn't dirty and the pets aren't voyeurs... that I know of).


_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.


(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: animal behavior issue? - 8/8/2007 2:41:34 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		agrh.......i should have typed theres no need to teach this old dog new tricks....let it be...

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)
Profile   Post #: 60
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