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a failure in trust? - 6/24/2005 5:47:52 AM

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A slave and their Owner are held up at gunpoint. The Owner verbally instructs the slave 'Do Not Move'. The slave seees that the assailant is about to fire and throws herself in front of the Owner, taking the bullet and saving the Owners life.

By not obeying the Do Not Move command did the slave fail to trust the Owner?

When I think about this I am so torn. I would appreciate any insights or thoughts.

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/24/2005 7:08:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

A slave and their Owner are held up at gunpoint. The Owner verbally instructs the slave 'Do Not Move'. The slave seees that the assailant is about to fire and throws herself in front of the Owner, taking the bullet and saving the Owners life.

By not obeying the Do Not Move command did the slave fail to trust the Owner?

When I think about this I am so torn. I would appreciate any insights or thoughts.

well, my opinion is this.....
if slave is dead, and the Owner considered slave ONLY property...what does he care ?
if Owner thought more of slave than just peoperty, disobedience is seen in a different way from now on.

i dont think this is a matter of trust anyway.

after all, the Owner didnt notice the intent to shot and didnt save his property.

this is dumb ......

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RE: a failure in trust? - 6/24/2005 7:33:37 AM

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1) I hope this never happnes to you dear. I can rest easy I think - it prolly won't.

2) Of course the person in question failed to trust. They may also have acted nobly, been moved by love - be very laudable in intent and heart. But also just as claerly, they didn't trust in their owner's judgment. Maybe the owner was wearing body armor. Maybe the owner knows some wild ass kung fu and was going to catch the bullet - in his teeth. Maybe the slave in question was wrong, totally wrong, and if they hadn't moved the situation would have been defused.

However you slice it, the slave failed to trust the judgement of the Master.

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/24/2005 7:44:44 AM

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No not a failure in trust. An instinctual reaction?

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 6/26/2005 6:20:57 PM >

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/24/2005 9:33:52 AM

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quote:

By not obeying the Do Not Move command did the slave fail to trust the Owner?

kisshou,
Well this is not as theoretical as; "Can god make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?", but it does get into an area of theory that hopefully none of us will have to apply to real life. For your example I'd think the answer is yes. But there are too many unknown tangents.

Back in college, one of the "rights of passage" for pledges in my fraternity was to take them to a cliff area (The Hudson River Palisades to be precise) show them a huge drop off and then blindfold them. After walking them around for a bit we'd tell them to put their leg forward and down, they could not feel the ground under the other foot. We told them they were at the edge of the cliff. We tied a rope around their waist and ankles and said if they "trusted" the brothers and wanted to be one of us - they'd take that step as a leap of faith. (Telling of my age - this was before the advent of bungee jumping!)

The reality is they were walked around to a parking lot where the curb was about a one-foot drop, with quite a few of us ready to catch them if they even lost their balance. So if the gun/movement was a "test", the slave failed.

Now I don't believe in tests. I think that type of "mind-fuck" is counterproductive to unqualified trust that we believe is key to a long term relationship. I don't believe it for this reason; the testing process has the potential of raising doubt in the slave. Every time something new is encounter or some situation is presented there is the potential for the slave to be thinking; "is this real or is it a test?". I don't want that thought process to be in my slave's mind. I think a slave must always be able to trust the Master, unqualified and without doubt. Even if your case was real, and the slave was concerned that the consequences of her obedience would resulted in the slave losing something most important - her Master, she should trust him. More important, if he had a "plan" that required her obedience to "STAY STILL"; he's shouldn't be thinking she may not obey.

However, your question can be interpreted in a number of ways. I'll pick the first two that come to mind:
1) Is their any order a Master can give that the slave is not obligated to follow?
2) Can a command given by a Master result in a breach of trust?

I've been long winded enough for now - I'll let someone else take a shot of those.

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/24/2005 12:03:02 PM

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I don't see where trust has anything to do with it. It is simply a failure to obey.

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RE: a failure in trust? - 6/24/2005 12:53:23 PM

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I don't see how trust has anything to do with it. By being someone's slave you are there property. Which also means you should lay down your life for the person you are serving.

How could it be any other way? The owner should have also looked out for his property so even if trust was a factor...the owner is as much at fault as the slave would be.

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/24/2005 4:39:49 PM

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The slave took a bullet for her Master. Seems like the ultimate sacrifice. If I was that Master, I would hardly be concerned about a lack of trust. I would more likely be mourning and wishing that I had been the one to move.

< Message edited by Estring -- 6/24/2005 4:40:23 PM >

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/25/2005 4:24:55 AM

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Thanks for all the replies so far!

< Message edited by kisshou -- 6/25/2005 4:26:53 AM >

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RE: a failure in trust? - 6/25/2005 5:18:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However, your question can be interpreted in a number of ways. I'll pick the first two that come to mind:
1) Is their any order a Master can give that the slave is not obligated to follow?
2) Can a command given by a Master result in a breach of trust?

This provoked quite an interesting discussion between me and PO. He said yes and yes while I said no and no. Opposing points of view.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/25/2005 3:03:27 PM

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I don't think it's a failure in trust if her intentions were so honourable as to try and protect me at the risk of her own safety, no!

But I'm also the possessive and protective type and I'd be absolutely livid with her if she took that risk. If you really must move, get behind me girl, NOT in front, and I'll handle this - for better or worse....!

Focus50.

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/25/2005 4:54:42 PM

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It definately is a failure of trust...and a failure to obey, if I am reading this correctly. I understand that the slave may have been acting out of an instinctive need to protect the Master, but is it not possible that the slave's actions triggered an escalation of events? Had the slave listened, could they both have walked away, shaken, but still breathing?

What exactly does someone look like before they pull the trigger of a firearm? How did the slave become privy to this knowledge? (Not saying that a dominant knows any better, but still...)

The slave placed his or her own instincts above the instructions of the Master. This may not be a conscious decision-making process, but regardless, the slave trusted their own instincts more...and acted on them.

That's how I see it...

~Thorns

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(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/26/2005 9:48:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

It definately is a failure of trust...and a failure to obey, if I am reading this correctly. I understand that the slave may have been acting out of an instinctive need to protect the Master, but is it not possible that the slave's actions triggered an escalation of events? Had the slave listened, could they both have walked away, shaken, but still breathing?

That was precisely my reasoning when kisshou came to me to discuss this. Had the slave obeyed, and not moved, the Master would have had the opportunity to take what action he deemed appropriate, whether that was to undertake disarming the assailant, or simply using his mind and powers of persuasion to try to defuse the situation.

quote:

The slave placed his or her own instincts above the instructions of the Master. This may not be a conscious decision-making process, but regardless, the slave trusted their own instincts more...and acted on them.

In situations where life and death are not on the line, I have had times where I have had to teach kisshou to listen to my instructions over her instincts. 99% of the time, she has come back to me after following instinctive reactions, and stated, "if i had only listened to you, I would have been better off."

Mind you, this is not meant to imply that kisshou is inherently disobedient -- far from it. But on those occasions where instinct won out over instructions, she has learned that her Master had reason for instructing her against her instincts. I am thankful that none of these instances held threats to life or limb, and I hold out the hope that by making these errors in minor cases, and learning from them now, she will be better prepared to follow instructions in the future, when more could be on the line.

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RE: a failure in trust? - 6/26/2005 10:14:15 PM

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Why is the automatic assumption that the Master would have handled the situation any better than what the slave did? Yes in the scenario the Master might have rescued both of them but equally the Master could have gotten both of them killed.

Secondly in the scenario given there is no mention of the timeframe between him telling the sub to stay still and other events occuring.

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RE: a failure in trust? - 6/26/2005 11:46:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
By not obeying the Do Not Move command did the slave fail to trust the Owner?
When I think about this I am so torn.

As others have said, it's failure to obey, not failure to trust... As a slave, you have a duty to obey at ALL times... Granting you'd be incredibly noble to jump in front and take the bullet, I would feel too guilty and too much like a failure if my slave didn't obey at such a critical time and died as a result, while I lived.. M

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(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/28/2005 9:57:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
By not obeying the Do Not Move command did the slave fail to trust the Owner?
When I think about this I am so torn.

As others have said, it's failure to obey, not failure to trust... As a slave, you have a duty to obey at ALL times... Granting you'd be incredibly noble to jump in front and take the bullet, I would feel too guilty and too much like a failure if my slave didn't obey at such a critical time and died as a result, while I lived.. M

why would you feel too guilty and too much like a failure?

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/28/2005 11:21:52 AM

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There are way too many variables that nobody has seemed to take into consideration when labeling this.

Here are a few things that come to mind when I think about this scenario:
#1. Was the Owner aware that the mugger had the intention to shoot when he/she gave the command? If they were aware why did they give the command for the slave to sit still? Was it because they did not have faith in their slave's abilities? Was it because they didn't want their slave getting hurt? Were they aware of the slave's gun phobia that would result in the slave getting them self killed by trying to run? There are so many different possibilities. If they didn't have faith in the slave's abilities... yet the slave overruled their Owner's command and was eventually successful in saving their life. I guess the Owner was wrong to begin with weren't they? Then that brings up the question... should a slave obey a command that is wrong? Just because you are someone's slave doesn't mean you don't have a soul of your own. If your Owner orders you to kill someone.. what should you do? Are you really going to take someone's life just because they told you to? Were you aware that your Owner was such a horrible person before you chose to be their slave? Why did they ask you to kill them? Obviously there is a bit more depth to this than some of you are able to recognize, no offense.

#2. What kind of relationship does the slave have with their Owner? Is it one where the Owner allows a certain level of leniency when the slave is aware of information the Owner is not, but does not have time to inform the owner before making a decision? Or does the Owner demand so much obedience that no command should be disobeyed under any circumstances, even if it results in death? Once again, we have to call certain things into question for each. If the Owner does allow leniency would the Owner be proud of the slave for doing such a thing or would he/she be upset? If the Owner does not allow leniency, how mature is the Owner? As an Owner don't you accept the responsibility of your slaves mental and physical safety? Giving such an order to stand still when at gunpoint could easily result in the death or serious injury of this slave.

To be honest with you, I would commend the slave for such an incredible act of love. As far as i'm concerned true love will always outrank obedience as a priority. Secondly, I say that the Owner should be the one put under the microscope for giving such a questionable order, not the slave. What the hell were they thinking telling someone not to move when a gun is pointed at them? In such a volatile situation you do not want static though, your mind needs to be constantly adapting to the situation and ready to make a move at the optimal moment. Of course we're all hoping the mugger just walks away with your money, not your life.. but in this scenario they did not. Verily, what decision would be best in such a horrifying picture completely depends on the two individuals.

Any ways, I had a lot more I wanted to say but kind of lost my momentum of thought and forgot. I hope that people will stop and think about life instead of simply following pre-determined rules set by other people or even yourself. Life is not a crystallized environment, it is ALWAYS constantly changing and therefor you must you in order to properly adapt and make the best decisions. This is not a game, and therefor should not be viewed as such.

P.s. To all of those who said the slave was wrong to disobey. I'd REALLY like to see what you'd do in that situation! Many people in this post remind me of sports fans who sit at home watching the plays on TV yelling at the players about what they're doing wrong. Unless you could do better in their position you have no right to talk.

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/29/2005 12:27:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
why would you feel too guilty and too much like a failure?

Sorry for the delayed response...
A) I would feel like a failure if I had a slave who is so loving and obedient he would lay down his life for me, refused to obey and therefore give me a chance to resolve the situation when I asked him to step aside.
B) I would feel guilty for remaining alive while failing to keep my slave safe.. M

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(in reply to kisshou)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/29/2005 1:13:55 AM

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It sounds to me like the slave was privvy to information and had all intentions of dying before their Master did. I'd call it an error in judgement, and a facet of watching too many movies. The slave SHOULD have jumped into the attacker if possible. Barring that, they should have yelled out something, which would startle the attacker and possibly make the Master move, before hitting the attacker. Both options increase the chance of the pair surviving. Diving to take a bullet for someone is risky at best, as the bullet is moving with such speed and is such a small object that the timing is not likely to happen the way you intended it to. Plus, once you dive and take the bullet, or not, it merely leaves the gunman open for another shot, or 5.. or more, depending on gun and clip.
In the end, the slave in this scenario was correct for moving, but the actions taken were inappropriate for the situation.

How do you tell someone's about to shoot? Well.. with a revolver.. you lock back the hammer and tense your muscles around the grip, holding on for the recoil. Most people inhale sharply before firing, also.. and tend to blink quickly. There's also the question of gut feeling. "I just knew it was about to happen". In said mugging, if the command was given, it was given at the time of the robbery part. Once a robber has the cash, they take off. If they linger, then it's no longer a robbery.. and the previous command no longer applies as the situation has changed into something else.
Now, if the command was something more along the lines of "This man has come to kill me, don't move." Then the master is saying he knows he will be shot, and is telling the slave they must not die. Perhaps the slave is with child, or any number of reasons the master doesn't want them dead. Giving a general plan along with a specific instruction (as mentioned elsewhere in the forums, the sub one I believe) allows the slave to grasp why the command was given, and the scope of it.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

RE: a failure in trust? - 6/29/2005 8:41:20 AM

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Well if I was someones slave,sub or master but back to Slave situation and I knew what was coming id take the bullet. For me it would be the act of love. Comes back to the old age of the man protecting the female but thats me.

(in reply to Akinta)

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