quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

Archer,...
i mean no disrespect at all i'm honestly wanting to understand Your reasons

quote:




LA caught the reason easily and completely for my having this rule, she (Elegant) is my property and basic manners say no intimate touching my property without permission whout reguard to gender, orintation, or power orientation. I view her as my second body.

I have no problem giving that permission at all, I think the total number ofdeclined hugs would still be in the low 30's over 8 years of being together.
I have the rule and enforce it fairly across the board anyone in a BDSM setting has to ask unless they have blanket permission (about 4 people I think). Slave's can ask, submissives can ask, vanillas visiting the BDSM club can ask, dominants can ask.

I've seen those folks who use the protocol as a way to exert a power trip over other people, and that always bothers me, and I'm not so dense as to think some folks won't view my protocol as being that way as well. I'm willing to live with that.

I would say 99% of the time it's a quick "May I??" with body language "Certainly." But should someone move in a way to hug her without asking first I will certainly set in a little and give them a look that says "You have violated my person" usually that is followed by "Oh I'm so sorry I lost my head for a second May I????" Yes you may.

BTW the same respect is always offered the other way by me.
I even ask unattached submissives if I may hug them. (Usually with body language, a simple opening ofmy arms with a hesitation before moving in for the hug)

It's not my body I'm going to ask the person who owns it before I hug.

Hope that makes a bit more sense, if not ask for more clarification, please.

(in reply to liljoy)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAcpllooking

I am no one to tell anyone anything.
If you really read what I said in all my posts you will see that, to put it simply, I am saying that everyone needs to respect others space and wishes. Nothing more nothing less.
I wonder why you are so defensive and question my experience?

William

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAcpllooking

Yes there is an etiquette that should be followed.
If he is alone Dom to Dom its the typical handshake thing.
If he is with a sub::
First off do not extend a hand or attempt to touch or talk to another Doms Sub. Talk to the Dom and let his sub react to you. The sub may be under restrictions and you may get them introuble if you make such a gesture and she responds. In some cases even is you touch them without them letting you they can be in trouble.
Never communicate directly with his sub without permission
Respect how he treats his sub no matter how he does
Dont ask the sub for anything unless it is offered by the Dom
Respect the fact that the sub may not look you in the eye
Focus on the dynamic between them and respect it
Always err on the side of conservatisim when not sure how to interact with a Doms sub.
I have seen Doms bad mouth other Doms, hell I have been on the receiving side of that and your right it is highschool stuff and to me a sign of weakness. If he has to bad mouth  someone in the hopes of bagging a sub then he must not be very secure.

quote:

 
It seems like today it is more a social event and everyone just hugs and kisses all over the place. My slave is under strict orders not to let anyone touch her or to look into another Doms eye unless I approve it. That also means other subs touching her also.

quote:

 
I have interacted with groups in Illinois, California, Nevada and Penn. all had the same flavor to them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAcpllooking

I am no one to tell anyone anything.
If you really read what I said in all my posts you will see that, to put it simply, I am saying that everyone needs to respect others space and wishes. Nothing more nothing less.
I wonder why you are so defensive and question my experience?

William

Sometimes a short memory can be a blessing. Sometimes it can be a curse. In this instance, you seem to be cursed with the inability to recall what you said a few short days ago (two, to be precise).

The references to personal space were privided to you by others, including myself. And I take umbrage with your assertion that it was "nothing more, nothing less". Just so we're clear, here's what you said two days ago.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAcpllooking

Yes there is an etiquette that should be followed.
If he is alone Dom to Dom its the typical handshake thing.
If he is with a sub::
First off do not extend a hand or attempt to touch or talk to another Doms Sub. Talk to the Dom and let his sub react to you. The sub may be under restrictions and you may get them introuble if you make such a gesture and she responds. In some cases even is you touch them without them letting you they can be in trouble.
Never communicate directly with his sub without permission
Respect how he treats his sub no matter how he does
Dont ask the sub for anything unless it is offered by the Dom
Respect the fact that the sub may not look you in the eye
Focus on the dynamic between them and respect it
Always err on the side of conservatisim when not sure how to interact with a Doms sub.
I have seen Doms bad mouth other Doms, hell I have been on the receiving side of that and your right it is highschool stuff and to me a sign of weakness. If he has to bad mouth someone in the hopes of bagging a sub then he must not be very secure.

Let's all count together the protocols you say should be followed:

1. Doms should greet one another with a handshake.

I have many male Dominant friends that I greet with a hug. Are you telling me that we're behaving inappropriately? Because it sure seems that you are. I'm sure you mean well, but it kinda makes people think less of you when you try to tell them what they should do.

2. Do not attempt to shake hands with male submissives.

Why not? I shake hands with male submissives all the time, and have done so for years. Not once (ever) has anyone had a problem with that. Most of the time you can't tell who is a submissive and who is a Dominant anyway. You want trouble? Go ahead and make uninformed assumptions about who is Dominant and who is submissive and who owns who, and see how quickly you end up with a drink in your lap. Personally, I treat everyone as my equal. That way no one can complain that I'm treating anyone badly or like a second class citizen.

3. Never speak directly to a submissive.

Believe it or not, most submissives are not wearing neon signs that identify them as submissives. That kinda puts you in a pickle, since you'd have to ask them if they were submissive but in order to do so you'd have to speak directly to them. Kind of a Catch-22, don't you think? Really, I think it's more offensive for someone like yourself to assume that submissives aren't interactive creatures, or capable of carrying on a conversation, or beneath your ability to address them directly. It's been my experience that people who treat submissives in that manner quickly wear out their welcome.

4. Do not touch a submissive without permission.

Now here's something we can both agree upon.

5. Respect how he treats his submissive, and their dynamic.

Something else we can agree upon.

William, I can only offer you a bit of my own experience and advice. If you embrace that kind of attitude, your version of "the one true way", you'll offend people and find yourself disappointed and isolated. Come to think of it, that's exactly what you've expressed.

quote:


It seems like today it is more a social event and everyone just hugs and kisses all over the place. My slave is under strict orders not to let anyone touch her or to look into another Doms eye unless I approve it. That also means other subs touching her also.

And that's great, William. But as you are finding out, it doesn't work too well in the real world. And you just can't expect everyone to abide by your personal preferences in order to make you happy. If you want to march to the beat of different drummer, then I say drum on... more power to you!!! But don't complain when you find out that no one is following you. If everyone is being social, you'll either have to be social with them or be anti-social by yourself.

You complain about "the lifestyle today" as if you've been active in the community for quite some time. And yet you're out of step with socially accepted behavior. Something just doesn't jive here, William. I've been pretty active in the community for quite a while as well, on a local, regional and national level. The acceptable standard of behavior you seem so offended by has been in existence for as long as I can recall (ie: it predates me). So just how long and deep is your social experience with lifestyle communities, such that there was a different level of socially acceptable behavior?

quote:


I have interacted with groups in Illinois, California, Nevada and Penn. all had the same flavor to them.

If everyone else has a different idea of what constitutes socially acceptable behavior, maybe they can't all be wrong. Maybe they're not the problem. Maybe it's you. And the question still remains as to where and how you ever got the idea that it is, or was, any different. Obviously it was not from any real time groups or community.

John

quote:

ORIGINAL: tr8nmyholes

Just a quick question about what is deemed appropriate behavior between Doms/Masters and whethere there is any type of etiquette that is commonly observed or expected.

I am brand-spanking-new to CM and actually did meet a local Dom for coffee last night. He is new to CM himself, but certainly not to the lifestyle of BDSM. Let's also say that coffee was not the only thing that was served up hot last night.

Today, I receive emails from a Dom whom I have never communicated with before, warning me to stay away from the Dom I met in person last night. When requesting that he substantiate his 'friendly warning' and allegation, he simply failed to respond further. So, I am left with the impression that I am looking at a petty case of bad-mouthing someone that he did not even know.

How common and how acceptable is this type of bad-mouthing behavior amongst Doms/Masters on CM?

Personally, I found it rather reminiscant of the highschool yard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Travelino

Now, 20-30-40 years later, and with the help of the internet, things have be bastardized to the extent that most newer people are floundering around, looking for something to grasp on (etiquette, protocol, et al) .

quote:

I have even been told that what I am about is not what is the core of the lifestyle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tr8nmyholes

Just a quick question about what is deemed appropriate behavior between Doms/Masters and whethere there is any type of etiquette that is commonly observed or expected.

I am brand-spanking-new to CM and actually did meet a local Dom for coffee last night. He is new to CM himself, but certainly not to the lifestyle of BDSM. Let's also say that coffee was not the only thing that was served up hot last night.

Today, I receive emails from a Dom whom I have never communicated with before, warning me to stay away from the Dom I met in person last night. When requesting that he substantiate his 'friendly warning' and allegation, he simply failed to respond further. So, I am left with the impression that I am looking at a petty case of bad-mouthing someone that he did not even know.

How common and how acceptable is this type of bad-mouthing behavior amongst Doms/Masters on CM?

Personally, I found it rather reminiscant of the highschool yard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSassy66
Sounds like a school yard to Me also.

If I were to give My opinion(asked opinion at that) on another Dom/me it would be from personal experience only.Anything else is...Gossip...and I dont gossip.

I am also respectful of Titles.
I tend to call Instynctive,Sir or Him when chatting with His girl.
He has always called Me Mistress.
Same with MamaDomme... One of the things I like about Them most
is the respect WE have for each Other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Maybe I'm just an exception, but I've always held very tightly to proper social etiquette, and know very well how to maneuver when others don't while simultaneously not making them look foolish (or making them look foolish but in a very subversive way so that they get the message and get to save face).

However, I've never seen what this has to do with being Ds or not, since I learned it all in the "vanilla world" and it works perfectly well anywhere that I've taken it.  Except when dumbasses try to suggest that orientation = status and that somehow not only can they divine the orientation of every person in a room immediately, but that we need to act differently towards them all.

That's where the problems arise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
LA, in your experience, does the "bdsm scene" or culture lack this social skill/"proper social etiquette"  more than any other group, or is it pretty much the same (hit or miss, or not) when compared against other social gatherings or groups? 

Akasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Travelino

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAcpllooking

I am no one to tell anyone anything.
If you really read what I said in all my posts you will see that, to put it simply, I am saying that everyone needs to respect others space and wishes. Nothing more nothing less.
I wonder why you are so defensive and question my experience?

William

Sometimes a short memory can be a blessing. Sometimes it can be a curse. In this instance, you seem to be cursed with the inability to recall what you said a few short days ago (two, to be precise).

The references to personal space were privided to you by others, including myself. And I take umbrage with your assertion that it was "nothing more, nothing less". Just so we're clear, here's what you said two days ago.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAcpllooking

Yes there is an etiquette that should be followed.
If he is alone Dom to Dom its the typical handshake thing.
If he is with a sub::
First off do not extend a hand or attempt to touch or talk to another Doms Sub. Talk to the Dom and let his sub react to you. The sub may be under restrictions and you may get them introuble if you make such a gesture and she responds. In some cases even is you touch them without them letting you they can be in trouble.
Never communicate directly with his sub without permission
Respect how he treats his sub no matter how he does
Dont ask the sub for anything unless it is offered by the Dom
Respect the fact that the sub may not look you in the eye
Focus on the dynamic between them and respect it
Always err on the side of conservatisim when not sure how to interact with a Doms sub.
I have seen Doms bad mouth other Doms, hell I have been on the receiving side of that and your right it is highschool stuff and to me a sign of weakness. If he has to bad mouth someone in the hopes of bagging a sub then he must not be very secure.

Let's all count together the protocols you say should be followed:

1. Doms should greet one another with a handshake.

I have many male Dominant friends that I greet with a hug. Are you telling me that we're behaving inappropriately? Because it sure seems that you are. I'm sure you mean well, but it kinda makes people think less of you when you try to tell them what they should do.

2. Do not attempt to shake hands with male submissives.

Why not? I shake hands with male submissives all the time, and have done so for years. Not once (ever) has anyone had a problem with that. Most of the time you can't tell who is a submissive and who is a Dominant anyway. You want trouble? Go ahead and make uninformed assumptions about who is Dominant and who is submissive and who owns who, and see how quickly you end up with a drink in your lap. Personally, I treat everyone as my equal. That way no one can complain that I'm treating anyone badly or like a second class citizen.

3. Never speak directly to a submissive.

Believe it or not, most submissives are not wearing neon signs that identify them as submissives. That kinda puts you in a pickle, since you'd have to ask them if they were submissive but in order to do so you'd have to speak directly to them. Kind of a Catch-22, don't you think? Really, I think it's more offensive for someone like yourself to assume that submissives aren't interactive creatures, or capable of carrying on a conversation, or beneath your ability to address them directly. It's been my experience that people who treat submissives in that manner quickly wear out their welcome.

4. Do not touch a submissive without permission.

Now here's something we can both agree upon.

5. Respect how he treats his submissive, and their dynamic.

Something else we can agree upon.

William, I can only offer you a bit of my own experience and advice. If you embrace that kind of attitude, your version of "the one true way", you'll offend people and find yourself disappointed and isolated. Come to think of it, that's exactly what you've expressed.

quote:


It seems like today it is more a social event and everyone just hugs and kisses all over the place. My slave is under strict orders not to let anyone touch her or to look into another Doms eye unless I approve it. That also means other subs touching her also.

And that's great, William. But as you are finding out, it doesn't work too well in the real world. And you just can't expect everyone to abide by your personal preferences in order to make you happy. If you want to march to the beat of different drummer, then I say drum on... more power to you!!! But don't complain when you find out that no one is following you. If everyone is being social, you'll either have to be social with them or be anti-social by yourself.

You complain about "the lifestyle today" as if you've been active in the community for quite some time. And yet you're out of step with socially accepted behavior. Something just doesn't jive here, William. I've been pretty active in the community for quite a while as well, on a local, regional and national level. The acceptable standard of behavior you seem so offended by has been in existence for as long as I can recall (ie: it predates me). So just how long and deep is your social experience with lifestyle communities, such that there was a different level of socially acceptable behavior?

quote:


I have interacted with groups in Illinois, California, Nevada and Penn. all had the same flavor to them.

If everyone else has a different idea of what constitutes socially acceptable behavior, maybe they can't all be wrong. Maybe they're not the problem. Maybe it's you. And the question still remains as to where and how you ever got the idea that it is, or was, any different. Obviously it was not from any real time groups or community.

John

I wonder, as I read the posts, if there may some sort of generation gap, going on among the postee's. For the mostpart, I agree with older poster's comments and suggestions of how more dominant people behave, amongst each other(both close friends(hugs), and new people(nod/handshake). Some of the comments are reminiscent of the early stages of the Leather community, from what I have been able understand, thus far. Back then, "respect" was respected, due to the consequences of any other actions. Handshakes are a manly thing to do. Nods, in someones direction, however slight, may have been a sign of respect. Now, 20-30-40 years later, and with the help of the internet, things have be bastardized to the extent that most newer people are floundering around, looking for something to grasp on (etiquette, protocol, et al) . I was speaking with a older Leatherman, and he told me that he(at one time) could walk into ANY club, and know *exactly* who was a top, who was a bottom, and what any person in the club was into. Now, he is lost, when he walks into a club. During the times that he *did* know who was who, their was mutual respect amongst the tops, and the bottoms where definitely off limits. This, of course, was when the scene was male only. As the time passes, things change, and origins get watered down. The newer people get to make the best of the watered down beverage of the Lifestyle, and those in it.

I choose to respect all, equally, and keep in mind that submissives (male or female) may be someone else's significant other, and treat them as such. Granted, I have slipped in the past, due to ignorance, and it has never happened the same way twice. Also, since I am more serious in my journey, I will likely be swayed by the older ways.

Enough rambling. Thanks for reading this.

Travelino

quote:

ORIGINAL: Travelino

After reviewing my own post to this thread, I neglected to mention that there may be conflict with *personal* BDSM , compared to *local group*, compared to the *general community" worldwide. There was mention of "core", earlier on. I am sure that core is much different from any individual's interpretation of what it is to be *core*, and what it originally meant. If memory serves, Guy Baldwin was referenced often, at a Protocol/Etiquette in BDSM lecture I attended. I have yet to do any serious research into Mr. Baldwin, or his experiences in the Leather community. I am hesitant to mention that he may be a good reference, for what the protocol/etiquette for dominants( in real life) to other dominants, for how things actually were at a certain timeperiod (some 30+ years ago, I believe). Today, though, it appears that the "core", that was mentioned(which may include behaviour patterns towards others in the Lifestyle), has change significantly, with hints of some of the *basics* that an older, hard *core*, had developed to be. Since I have never lived during the early times of BDSM-becoming-more-public years, I am unable to make the comparison to today's *core*. I do have my own *core*, and it changes as ignorance is slowly removed. My core is based mostly in honesty and respect, and is what I offer to most anyone(in and out of the Lifestyle). How I do this, is unique to myself. How others handle themselves, will be up to them, and may indeed be similar shades of the color I have painted. It seems that I may have to mention that my opinions stated here apply to real-life interaction with others in the community, vs. pixelated-world on the net.

Travelino
~edited for typo's and punctuation~