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RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/5/2007 10:37:26 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

There is no contradiction, but a missing clause in my sentence.
I'm sorry you could not help but to perceive it as more than a mistake.
Reading the posts should, I think, have offered the clause by combining them.

Generally speaking I am a very literal person and do not assume facts that have not been placed into evidence, as it were. There are times, admittedly, when I fail in that endeavor.

quote:

It is not necessary for a society to abide by my morality to fit its own criterion for civilization, and thus be civilized by its internal consensus. It is, however, necessary for a society to meet my criterion in order for me to consider it civilized.

Now that is, as they say, a horse of a different color. And I have no issue with those statements posed as personal value judgments rather than universal statements of fact. I would dispute your conclusion as it relates to the particular issue of state sponsored non-consensual violence, but that's simply my value judgment as well. Both are equally valid on the individual level, and both are equally valid as part of a societal consensus that allows for the freedom of our two societies to come to differing conclusions on the issue.

quote:

And it is necessary for a society to meet some basic consistency requirements for me to recognize its own criterion as being fulfilled.

Another personal value judgment. No issue there.

quote:

As I said, my posts have been doing a poor job of addressing these three issues seperately: compliance with societal criterion; compliance with my (individual) criterion; and the consistency of societal criterion and their application.

It was an interesting debate while it lasted. :)

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/6/2007 9:00:54 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Generally speaking I am a very literal person and do not assume facts that have not been placed into evidence, as it were. There are times, admittedly, when I fail in that endeavor.

Sounds familiar.

quote:

And I have no issue with those statements posed as personal value judgments rather than universal statements of fact.

Hence, my attempts at clarifying that there were different issues that should be different debates.

quote:

I would dispute your conclusion as it relates to the particular issue of state sponsored non-consensual violence, but that's simply my value judgment as well.

~nod~

quote:

Both are equally valid on the individual level, and both are equally valid as part of a societal consensus that allows for the freedom of our two societies to come to differing conclusions on the issue.

Yeah.

I do have some issues with not providing an alternative to possibly being killed unjustly by the state, such as voluntary relocation to another country without capital punishment, but the main gripe I have with it, is that people who could be unjustly killed by the state could also be among those who don't support the death penalty. In other words, if person A has a morality that considers it acceptable to risk killing innocent people, then it is fine by me if person A is that innocent being executed. When person A does not support the death penalty, however, and is innocent, I take issue with executing them.

But, again, people have many different reasons for killing, as do societies.
I'm just saying I don't think one reason is any better than any other.
And that being a state does not change that opinion.

Pretending one isn't engaging in a premeditated killing for reasons the victim does not agree with when executing someone, however, is something I think one could rather objectively assert as being hypocritical. Being honest and up-front about not taking a "moral high ground" stance on the matter seems more appropriate, to me. At those times in the past when I have been a supporter of the death penalty, I have never considered it different in nature from any other premeditated killing.

quote:

quote:

And it is necessary for a society to meet some basic consistency requirements for me to recognize its own criterion as being fulfilled.

Another personal value judgment. No issue there.

It would be interesting to see whether it's one you agree with, though.

quote:

It was an interesting debate while it lasted. :)

~nod~

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Rover)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/7/2007 10:53:23 PM

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Joined: 7/17/2007
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It aint no debate friends. Slave Trade will be a reality in future with war ravaged countries and powerful countries against each other.
when people get fed up with materialism they would turn to their basic instincts and sex and food is the most basic.'

hostage swapping as seen sometimes is a hint.

World belongs to the mighty , powerful and dominant few like the old ages.

History repeats itself

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 12:22:49 AM

LongBeachMaster

Posts: 5
Joined: 5/26/2007
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Coming from a Dom Top Master's viewpoint, I am constantly concerned over my property's health. I never let my boy play without me being there to supervise or on a rare occasion that a very close friend supervise. I do not want a slick, dishonorable master to infect my boy. Property or not, it brings it into my home. I allow my boy to be used by others, but never "traded" and left. Just a quirk of mine.

We are looking for a full time slave boy as well to add to our household, and the same would go for him, even though he would not be my partner, but a piece of property. Hope that adds yet another perspective.

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 8:50:36 AM

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zack first learn grammar. and yes i agree with you but it is not war that will cause slave trades to emerge. it is the fact that slavery has emerged as a necessity in today's society whether it is for the presuit of pleasure or what ever the reason for entering this lifestyle is. over time slavery will become an accepted thing and the government will have to condone it. and when a capitalistic society actually condone's slavery they will ask why aren't they making money off the trades. so slavery will become a government business, another reason is b/c government's round the world will want to manage the slave trades so that they will know when a non consensual slavery tries to be traded by her Master and that will be illegal. only registered consensual slaves can be traded and only if they want to be. trust me there are a lot who want to be even though they aren't the subs on this message board

< Message edited by MasterJBK -- 8/8/2007 8:55:19 AM >

(in reply to zack2912)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 9:17:09 AM

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zack2912... small 'z'... one of jessy's hand puppet trolls, mayhaps?

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Black Water Dragon

(in reply to zack2912)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 9:18:26 AM

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that time has long past come into reality... ever heard the term "wage slaves"?

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Black Water Dragon

(in reply to MasterJBK)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 12:21:45 PM

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Joined: 3/7/2005
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it still hasn't become part of american main stream. right now gay is trying to get its foot in the door; and doing a good job of it, bdsm isnt an accepted institution in the united states, like most american's wouldn't vote for someone who was openly part of this lifestyle. you obviously don't live in the bible belt like me, when it becomes accepted here then i will say it is an accepted institution, but until then I will keep pushing the subject in my life not caring what people think. and no, never heard the term wage slave before. don't make blanket arguements when you don't know how everyone is.

(in reply to kiyari)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 12:26:43 PM

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'Wage slave' is a broad term for workers who barely make enough to keep coming back to work...sometimes associated with suburban discontents griping about their job at the mall.

(in reply to MasterJBK)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 5:11:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJBK

it still hasn't become part of american main stream. right now gay is trying to get its foot in the door; and doing a good job of it, ...

And this is a bad thing????

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(in reply to MasterJBK)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 6:23:01 PM

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zack2912

It aint no debate friends. Slave Trade will be a reality in future with war ravaged countries and powerful countries against each other.
when people get fed up with materialism they would turn to their basic instincts and sex and food is the most basic.'

hostage swapping as seen sometimes is a hint.

World belongs to the mighty , powerful and dominant few like the old ages.

History repeats itself

As my father would say... "No chit Cherlock."

The slave trade never died. It exists to this day with nonconsenting women and children (that's right, babies and toddlers who can't yet speak are the ideal targets of today's slave trade) being stolen and brought to different countries to serve as sexual and domestic slaves.

It's disgusting and has nothing to do with the consenual slavery of BDSM. I truely hope all those involved in the nonconsenual slavery die a slow and painful death for the misery they have brought to those they have stolen and the families who suffer the loss of beloved members.

We are nothing like that. To compare ourselves to that is to trivalize their pain.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to zack2912)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 8:20:40 PM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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AquaticSub,

Them dying a slow and horrible death isn't really going to solve any problems.

I also suspect it won't be very emotionally satisfying; the last time I truly felt that way, the person in question died in a freak accident working on a platform (not my doing, as far as I know, unless you're inclined to believe in the paranormal). A chain snapped, then the remaining three, and a 30-man lifeboat landed on his head. It was not in the least bit satisfying that it happened, nor particularly comfortable to think back on the thought when I had to spend the next year with his son for entirely different reasons.

Be careful what you wish for. It may not be what you really want.

Best wishes,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 8/8/2007 8:21:21 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 9:01:17 PM

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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Perhaps. Perhaps not.

But I find it a fitting fate to those willing to sell children and women into real, nonconsenting slavery where they are abused mentally, physically and sexually with little hope of ever getting home and having a happy life again. I truly believe that karma should come back to them for all the pain they have caused to those they have abused and the familes that now long for their loved ones.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 9:22:28 PM

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From: Northern New Jersey
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The ramifications of our country (USA) moving backward to a return to slavery, consensual or not would be absolutely terrible. On one speaks of how one might change their mind from being a "consensual" slave available for trade, and no one should ever HAVE that choice taken away from them. This is in no way meant to demean or disrespect those who are in happy, fufilling relationships as a consensual slave and remain so throughout their life. However, the fact that it is a CHOICE makes all the difference in the world. Slaves CHOOSE their masters and I don't think that there really are that many slaves who would be agreeable to being traded to anyone at a whim without consideration to commonality.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 9:35:44 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

But I find it a fitting fate to those willing to sell children and women into real, nonconsenting slavery [...] I truly believe that karma should come back to them for all the pain they have caused to those they have abused and the familes that now long for their loved ones.

Such were my thoughts before the incident in question as well, without elaborating on this side.

The point being, even if you find that you have no problem dealing with the death of another human being without restoring anything to anyone else, you may still find that you have sympathy for the perps' families, as well. The line between karma and a plain spiral of violence is pretty thin; once that wheel starts turning, and you consider that one generally needs human agents in there to really balance any "scores", it seems to be a bit of a perpetual motion device.

That said, this conversation may not belong on the thread itself.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 9:46:08 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The ramifications of our country (USA) moving backward to a return to slavery, consensual or not would be absolutely terrible.

I disagree. Consensual slavery, even in a literal definition of the term, remains different in nature. The main point of contention is that I believe it should be an inalienable right to exercise free will, as you do, but I hold that to also mean that an act of will (a choice) should be free to enact permanent changes. This is so in other regards, like DNR orders.

For me, the whole concept of informed consent is basically a means to try to discern the act of will, and seperate it from those things that may interpose themselves between their will and mine (i.e. weed out things that would make it not their own will, whether in the sense of it being a whim or impulse, as opposed to actual will, or in the sense of it being an illness that masks or displaces their will).

But, at the risk of repeating myself, I do subscribe to the idea of prior consent. That one can make the choice up front, and not just continously in the moment. Whether that is acceptable and legal, will depend on prevailing cultural bias et cetera, and on law / legal precedent. Personally, I think people should be allowed to make any choice, not just the choices handed to them, as those are never the full range of choices available. I also think the law should reflect this.

My two cents, in any case.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 10:50:06 PM

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Joined: 7/17/2007
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Well I feel that before slavery emerges as a trade it will be the wish of the needy people to be slaved and taken care of voluntarily . Examples :-

1. People end up in prisons by deliberately commiting minor crimes so they are not worried about safety , survival etc. The state feeds them.
2. have u witnessed servants boasting among fellow servants about their masters wealth , salary & benefits recieved , treatment etc.

So the same will be the case with slaves boasting about their masters dominance and powers to protect and feed them.
Children of the slaves will be brought up with the values to serve the master in every way possible like still happens in villages and farming sector for social security and survival.
money slaves who are under debt and have to serve.
the masters religion will be adopted by the slave and the masters god will be the slaves god.

For MasterJBK - This ain't no grammer / elementary school and u r messing with the wrong guy . Keep it clean and straight or die ( haha)
Your posts are quite good and match with my vision so lets be intrumental in bringing slavery to this world together. Amen

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/8/2007 10:52:37 PM

michaelOfGeorgia

Posts: 4253
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

what's a CCG?

Collectable Card Game.

would love to, but i haven't a thing to wear...then again...LOL

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Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/9/2007 7:41:25 AM

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like my grandfather was a factory worker. who made a little less than he had to buy. kept him working in the factory always in debt to the factory.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: SLAVE TRADE - 8/9/2007 7:45:18 AM

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you go your own way i was thinking we institute for some crimes the charge of slavery for a certain period. but then that would be cruel and unusual, but then again it could deter a lot of people

(in reply to zack2912)

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