RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 7:53:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

real, exactly where in the constitution does it draw a distinction between corporations, privately owned companies, and laborers? 

Simply citing the article and section will be enough. 


well my brain isnt yet firing on all 8 this morning, its been along nite LOL

the constitution makes a absolutely clear distinction between apprortioned and unapportioned taxes.   The object is fair taxation.

wages before revisionists got a hold of it were property an equal exchange not instruments of wealth and needed for survival etc  therefore non taxable.

exise tax always did exist and is perfectly constitutional throughout the land because you have a choice you can choose not to buy it and walk away.

The standing army was set up to protect corporations foreign investments and prevent a contenental invasion.

The federal government can call on both the standing army and the citizens militia to fight off an invading army.

The state can call on the citizens militia to fight off an invading federal government but the feds are much smarter now days, they come in sheeps clothing.  (katrina) (waco) (ruby ridge) (murrah)



Who gets taxed today is not focused on being fair it is focused on who is the least likely to fight back.  The corporation with a wheel barrel full of money or the individual with little to no money.   It goes without saying that the best thing to do is to create a serf union and get rid of the muiddle class.   Then as Ghita said earlier impose a 25000 dollar fine on any frivolous suits and consider anything siting the constitution frivolous, thus as can be seen empirically the middle class is falling away and sinking into the lower class and the gap between the "wealthy" (which is not the same as rich), and the lower class widens.



Only in america...  well maybe not.

i forgot to put this up:

Direct from your link:

The Internal Revenue Code does not define “income.”


Technically correct, but irrelevant.



many of us who demand accountibility say bullshit to that little word "irrelevant"


also if you read the links i put up or watched the freedom to fascisim vid they list several court cases that do in fact illustrate the differentiation as a result of SC case law.

But like in the hendricksons situation lets not let case law get in the way of collecting taxes.
















Real0ne -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 8:19:32 AM)

i think there are 2 kinds of people l;ooking these arguments.

There is a huge divide between those who would depend on the representatives word as law and place them above us and those who look at what these same people have done and say hey wait a minute.

i for one compare the original intent of the framers to what the situation is now and see if we are progressing along those lines.   If not we have a huge red flag.

Many others look at what ever the law is now regardless and in their mind that is what it is and should be without regard to the process of how it got there, without regard to it lawfulness within the framers intent all with the "assumption" that all is well and we have an honest joe governemnt taking care of us totally disregarding if it is within the the same scope as the founding fathers envisioned.   

Some people feel they could never understand the scope and breadth of what these people in power do therefore these people making these decisions are correctly doing so.   The supreme court has made some piss poor decisions in the past as has congress and i mean back before our government was plagued with this degree of sophistry.

In the end we either hold that constitution as truths self evident or not.  If we do hold it as truth then we have the obligation to protect it.   That means we also have the obligation to protect it from those who would "change the definition" of the words within or the "intent"  of the founding fathers.   Either way will really mess things up.

Unless of course we the people really have no power at all, then we would want to make the assumption that the government is good, the government is honest, the government will always act in our own best interest and focus on everyone who has lost battles to protect the constitution rather than stand up for our rights and let the government do whatever they want.  i know a lot, in fact most people are that way.  (just go with the flow, the easiest way out).






Real0ne -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 8:28:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Ghitaamati:
Even though the supreme court has ruled that one does not need a S/S number try to open a bank account without one or even try to get phone service with out it.
When  I tried it the phone company simply said if you do not want to give it to us that is just fine but until you do you will not get a phone line.  This was after I went through about twelve layers of managers and supervisors.  Essentially; "we are the phone company and if you don't like how we do business go fuck your self"
thompson


Right, but having a bank account or a phone isnt a "right" nor is it even a nessecity...And its compleatly possible to get a prepaid phone or cell without a SSN. I dont know any businesses around here who dont still take cash, and you can use your cash to get money orders if you HAVE to send a check or such through the mail. Hell, when I went to buy my van last year, after test driving three and finally making a decision on a brand new nissan quest, the sales guy started asking me questions about my credit, I told him he didnt need that information. In this really sarcastic tone he asks, "what are you gonna do, pay cash?" I said "as a matter of fact I am", he had to actually go and get approval from his manager to accept 25k in cash. I was fucking shocked, almost took my business to another dealer.



WTG GA!

i have been doing exactly that since i was a kid.  Cuts out all the middle men.  ANother policy i have is why pay someone else to do what i can buy a tool for 1/4 the cost and do it myself and in the end have capital equipment instead of money out the door into someone elses pocket.  i get the same responses too btw which only goes to show you how incredibly entrenched the federal reserve and the bankers are in this country.  People cannot even imagine life another way.

Personally i think the constitution is doomed.






Real0ne -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 8:48:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Ghitaamati:
Even though the supreme court has ruled that one does not need a S/S number try to open a bank account without one or even try to get phone service with out it.
When  I tried it the phone company simply said if you do not want to give it to us that is just fine but until you do you will not get a phone line.  This was after I went through about twelve layers of managers and supervisors.  Essentially; "we are the phone company and if you don't like how we do business go fuck your self"
thompson


Right, but having a bank account or a phone isnt a "right" nor is it even a nessecity...And its compleatly possible to get a prepaid phone or cell without a SSN. I dont know any businesses around here who dont still take cash, and you can use your cash to get money orders if you HAVE to send a check or such through the mail. Hell, when I went to buy my van last year, after test driving three and finally making a decision on a brand new nissan quest, the sales guy started asking me questions about my credit, I told him he didnt need that information. In this really sarcastic tone he asks, "what are you gonna do, pay cash?" I said "as a matter of fact I am", he had to actually go and get approval from his manager to accept 25k in cash. I was fucking shocked, almost took my business to another dealer.



i have nothing against the concept of a federal bank.  In fact i would be for keeping the federal reserve under only one condition.   That condition being that the ownership is transfered to the american people.

Its quite hilarious really.   Few people understand that their real property is being martaged against these loans.  In other words some other country/entity can take our property if we default because the national debt is a loan taken against amewrican assets!    The problem of course is that rather than the profits from these loans given to the federal gov going back into the peoples pockets it leaves the country and goes into foreign bankers pockets.   The dollar went from 1 buck to about 3 cent per buck now value.  The dollar is worthless but your property has real value.  you hear it on the news all the time countries being overtaken because they cannot pay their bills!  Cant happen to us right?

The federal reserve should be put in the hands of the people such that we the people directly offer up our property as collateral to the feds as opposed to the underhanded and sneaky way it is being done now,  That way we would collect the interest the money stays in this country and filters back to the people who supported it not the foreign bankers.   (speaking of terrorists)

It is very sad the american people are so blind to all this.

(on a side note however there would need to be provisions made so corporations could not take it over and it winds up being what it is today anyway and i am not sure how to accomplish that.)  unlike my regulator ideas i have not thought this one trough yet





sappatoti -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 9:02:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati


quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti

Instead of an individual SSN, you could set yourself up as a corporation and get an Employer Identification Number (EIN).




But once you are a corp, taxation is compleatly constitutional. We were discussing personal taxation.





That's true. Please forgive me in my wanderings off the original topic.




quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

Next point though, you dont actually HAVE to incorporate to run a business, nor do you have to fill out all those silly papers about your employees, its possible to hire everyone as a sub-contractor, then its their own responsibilty to take care of their taxes how ever they see fit.



Agreed. There are many ways of going about life without necessarily having to have an SSN. I used the example of incorporating and using an EIN in place of an SSN as but one way. Sub-contracting is certainly another way.

Now I shall return to the shadows...




luckydog1 -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 9:41:06 AM)

real says

,"wages before revisionists got a hold of it were property an equal exchange not instruments of wealth and needed for survival etc  therefore non taxable."

However the courts disagree...
Wages cannot be taxed because the exercise of a fundamental right cannot be taxed and the right to work is a fundamental right reserved to the citizens of the United States by the 10th Amendment to the Constitution.
This is absolutely wrong in every way.
The idea that there may be rights or privileges that are exempt from taxation has been rejected from the very beginnings of the United States. In rejecting such a claim in 1830, Chief Justice Marshall wrote:
“The power of legislation, and consequently of taxation, operates on all the persons and property belonging to the body politic. This is an original principle, which has its foundation in society itself. It is granted by all, for the benefit of all. It resides in government as a part of itself, and need not be reserved when property of any description, or the right to use it in any manner, is granted to individuals or corporate bodies. However absolute the right of an individual may be, it is still in the nature of that right, that it must bear a portion of the public burthens; and that portion must be determined by the legislature.”

Providence Bank v. Billings, 29 U.S. 514, 563 (1830), (emphasis added).
In upholding the power of New York to tax a bequest to the United States, the Supreme Court observed in 1896 that:
“[T]he laws of all civilized states recognize in every citizen the absolute right to his own earnings, and to the enjoyment of his own property, and the increase thereof, during his life, except so far as the state may require him to contribute his share for public expenses....”

United States v. Perkins, 163 U.S. 625, 627 (1896).
So even rights that the Supreme Court refers to as “absolute“ may be subject to tax.
The idea that the “right to work” is somehow exempt from tax was expressly refuted by the Supreme Court in 1937, upholding the constitutionality of the Social Security tax paid by employers on wages:
“But natural rights, so called, are as much subject to taxation as rights of lesser importance. An excise is not limited to vocations or activities that may be prohibited altogether. It is not limited to those that are the outcome of a franchise. It extends to vocations or activities pursued as of common right.”

Charles C. Steward Machine Co. v. Davis, 301 U.S. 548 (1937).
On the same day that the Steward Machine case was decided, the same justices confirmed the same principle in upholding the constitutionality of an Alabama unemployment tax:
“Taxes, which are but the means of distributing the burden of the cost of government, are commonly levied on property or its use, but they may likewise be laid on the exercise of personal rights and privileges. As has been pointed out by the opinion in the Chas. C. Steward Machine Co. Case, such levies, including taxes on the exercise of the right to employ or to be employed, were known in England and the Colonies before the adoption of the Constitution, and must be taken to be embraced within the wide range of choice of subjects of taxation....”

Carmichael v. Southern Coal & Coke Co., 301 U.S. 495, 508 (1937).
The idea that Congress is limited by “natural law” was more recently rejected in Koar v. United States, 98-2 U.S. Tax Cas. P50,748, 82 A.F.T.R.2d 6329 (S.D.N.Y. 1999). In dismissing a suit for the refund of all federal income tax, social security, and Medicare contributions withheld from the plaintiff’s wages between 1993 and 1994, Judge Kimba Wood wrote:
“Plaintiff thus appears to argue that this Court should look to principles of natural law, or more accurately, his preferred principles of natural law, as opposed to the positive law by which it is bound. That, however, is not this province of this Court.”

Judge Wood then quoted from the opinion of Justice Iredell in Calder v. Bull, 3 U.S. 386, 398-99 (1798) (opinion dissenting in part):
“If, on the other hand, the Legislature of the Union, or the Legislature of any member of the Union, shall pass a law, within the general scope of their constitutional power, the Court cannot pronounce it to be void, merely because it is, in their judgment, contrary to the principles of natural justice. The ideas of natural justice are regulated by no fixed standard: the ablest and the purest men have differed upon the subject; and all that the Court could properly say, in such an event, would be, that the Legislature (possessed of an equal right of opinion) had passed an act which, in the opinion of the judges, was inconsistent with the abstract principles of natural justice.”

Under this principle of constitutional law, the courts cannot refuse to enforce the federal income tax merely because one or more judges believe that the tax is contrary to their concepts of “natural law” or “natural rights.”
Tax Protester “Evidence”
The belief that “natural rights” cannot be taxed is purely wishful thinking, but tax protesters sometimes cite some misleading quotations from irrelevant cases that they think support their position, such as:
“The right to live and own property are natural rights for the enjoyment of which an excise can not be imposed.”

Redfield v. Fisher, 135 Or. 180, 292 P. 813 (1930), reh’g den., 135 Or. 205, 295 P. 461 (1931).
But that is a decision of the Oregon Supreme Court, not a federal court, and the tax in question was not even an income tax. Oregon has an income tax, and the Oregon courts enforce it. For example:
“Taxpayer cites Redfield v. Fisher, 135 Or 180, 292 P 813 (1930) reh’g den, 135 Or 205, 295 P 461 (1931) for the proposition that an individual, unlike a corporation, may not be taxed for the mere privilege of existing. He then extends that statement to encompass the act of earning a living. That extension is erroneous. The court in Redfield knew of, and in no way questioned, the then existing Oregon tax on the income of individuals.”

Clark v. Dept. of Revenue, TC 4604, note 3 (Or. Tax Court 10/6/2003) (sanctions of $5,000 imposed against the taxpayer for bringing a frivolous appeal, arguing “that a citizen of Oregon is not liable for Oregon personal income tax on wages”).
Another case often cited by tax protesters is from Arkansas:
“An income tax is neither a property tax nor a tax on occupations of common right, but is an excise tax...The legislature may declare as ‘privileged’ and tax as such for state revenue, those pursuits not matters of common right, but it has no power to declare as a ‘privilege’ and tax for revenue purposes, occupations that are of common right.”

Sims v. Ahrens, 167 Ark. 557, 271 S.W. 720 (1925).
That decision is from the Arkansas Supreme Court, and not the United States Supreme Court, and is about the Arkansas Constitution, and not the United States Constitution. Even worse, the quotation is from what turned out to be the minority opinion, so it’s not even a correct statement of the law in Arkansas. The majority opinion was as follows:
“My conclusion of the whole matter is that there are two, and only two, limitations in our [state] Constitution upon the power of the state to raise revenue for state purposes, namely (1) that taxes on property must be ad valorem, equal and uniform; and (2) that the Legislature cannot lay a tax for state revenue on occupations that are of common right. A tax on incomes is neither a property tax nor an occupation tax, and is not prohibited or excluded by our Constitution.

Sims v. Ahrens, 167 Ark. 557, 271 S.W. 720 (1925) (emphasis added).
Attempting to establish that “rights” cannot be taxed, tax protesters will also cite:
“A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution.”

Murdock v Pennsylvania, 319 US 105, 113 (1943).
But the court in the very next sentence declared that “Thus, it [the state] may not exact a license tax for the privilege of carrying on interstate commerce (citation omitted), although it may tax the property used in, or the income derived from, that commerce, so long as those taxes are not discriminatory.” Which means that, regardless of whether a state can tax the “right to work,” the state can still tax the income from the exercise of that right. Accord, Allison McCoy v. United States, 88 AFTR2d Par. 2001-5607, 2001 TNT 236-16, No. 3:00-CV-2786-M (U.S.D.C. N.D.Tex. 11/16/2001).
And the Supreme Court has repeatedly stated that nondiscriminatory taxes can apply to newspapers and other publications protected by the First Amendment. (“It is beyond dispute that the States and the Federal Government can subject newspapers to generally applicable economic regulations [including taxes] without creating constitutional problems.” Minneapolis Star & Tribune v. Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue, 460 U.S. 575, 581 (1983). See also, Arkansas Writers’ Project v. Ragland, 481 U.S. 221, 228 (1987) (“a genuinely nondiscriminatory tax on the receipts of newspapers would be constitutionally permissible”); Grosjean v. American Press, 297 U.S. 233, 250 (1936) (“It is not intended by anything we have said to suggest that the owners of newspapers are immune from any of the ordinary forms of taxation for support of the government.”). Similarly, the Supreme Court has upheld an obligation to withhold Social Security taxes from the wages of employees even when the withholding violates the religious beliefs of the employer. United States v. Lee, 455 U.S. 252 (1982).
So the Supreme Court has consistently upheld the imposition of taxes on incomes even when the incomes are derived from the exercise of constitutional rights.


Feel free to cite any cases that show otherwise real.




luckydog1 -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 9:43:34 AM)

So real you are admitting that you simply made up the stuff about the Constitution making distinctions in the source of income?  It is no where to be seen. 

Please cite the constitution where it  says as you claim,

"The standing army was set up to protect corporations foreign investments and prevent a contenental invasion. "

Or are you just (as I suspect) making it up?




luckydog1 -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 9:46:06 AM)

"the constitution makes a absolutely clear distinction between apprortioned and unapportioned taxes."  It does, but not in relation tot he income tax.  It  specifically says in the 16th amendmant, which has just as much validity as the 1st, 2nd, and 4th .

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. "




luckydog1 -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 9:49:22 AM)

"It goes without saying that the best thing to do is to create a serf union and get rid of the muiddle class.   Then as Ghita said earlier impose a 25000 dollar fine on any frivolous suits and consider anything siting the constitution frivolous, thus as can be seen empirically the middle class is falling away and sinking into the lower class and the gap between the "wealthy" (which is not the same as rich), and the lower class widens. "

I assume you mean citing not siting.  But you have not cited a single case.  Every single case has gone against you position here.  You have cited wack job videos, not a single court case.

Please ,I have asked you a hundred times, please cite one of your cases.  You don't because you know they don't exist...




luckydog1 -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 9:50:56 AM)

Real, anyone who rejects the USSC (as you do) is not a supporter of the Constitution.




Real0ne -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 11:01:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
I assume you mean citing not siting.  But you have not cited a single case.  Every single case has gone against you position here.  You have cited wack job videos, not a single court case.

Please ,I have asked you a hundred times, please cite one of your cases.  You don't because you know they don't exist...


Lucky please read my previous posts and use your mouse to click on links i and others have provided, cited, sited, sighted, many of which are in the wacko video  :)  




luckydog1 -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 11:28:46 AM)

I dont want a link to a silly web page, I want the name of a court case your side won.  Every case presented in your videos is crap, like in the russo film.

Real now demonstrate to everyone that you can not cite a single case to back up your case.




Real0ne -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 12:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I dont want a link to a silly web page, I want the name of a court case your side won.  Every case presented in your videos is crap, like in the russo film.

Real now demonstrate to everyone that you can not cite a single case to back up your case.


lucky if you are incapable of clicking on links or watching documentaries provided that illustrate mine and others positions we have little to discuss.






subfever -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 12:43:53 PM)

Hey RO... here's one for you:

http://www.newsbusters.org/node/14077




subfever -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 1:05:52 PM)

Here's another:

http://edbrownextendedentries.blogspot.com/2007/07/tom-cryers-trial-summary.html




GhitaAmati -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 1:44:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

quote:

"Then as Ghita said earlier impose a 25000 dollar fine on any frivolous suits and consider anything siting the constitution frivolous"


"I assume you mean citing not siting.  But you have not cited a single case.  Every single case has gone against you position here.  You have cited wack job videos, not a single court case.



Referring to the $25,000 I did site my source, and no it wasnt a case if thats what you were expecting. That ruling comes directly from Title 26, if you scroll up to previous posts I stated the section number it can be found in.




Alumbrado -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 3:14:43 PM)

Email me, and I'll explain that he is talking about RO's failures at citing, not your's....[:D]




luckydog1 -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 5:08:40 PM)

Subfever, both of those links are to the same issue, neither one has the actuall case in it.  Tom Cryers case is one of those I have already refered to.  He was not convicted on the charges of "willfull failure to file".  He managed to convince a jury that he did not realise he had to file so there was no willfull intent.  In no way did they find that the taxes are illegal.  The government originally charged him with tax evasion also, but realised after filing that they had determined the wrong amount.  You  are not allowed to change the indictment after filing, so they got droped as a technicality, not as precedent.  This is also a lower court ruling that flies in the face of several USSC cases, and will be appealed, and Tom will lose.  This paticular case is not finished yet.  I guess you can pretend that an unsettled case is a victory for your side. 

There are certainly zero cases where your arguments have prevailed.

Please cite a single one that has finished the appeal process, not one that is in progress.




Real0ne -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 6:47:16 PM)

Of everythign you posted sited, cited, sighted, this is the only one that is applicable and i would have to agree with him. unfortunately it does nothing to prove your case.

“The power of legislation, and consequently of taxation, operates on all the persons and property belonging to the body politic. This is an original principle, which has its foundation in society itself. It is granted by all, for the benefit of all. It resides in government as a part of itself, and need not be reserved when property of any description, or the right to use it in any manner, is granted to individuals or corporate bodies. However absolute the right of an individual may be, it is still in the nature of that right, that it must bear a portion of the public burthens; and that portion must be determined by the legislature.”

i will keep an eye out to see if you find something that applies.




luckydog1 -> RE: America: Freedom to Fascism (8/2/2007 6:53:20 PM)

No, real every single case on the list I gave you is relevant. 

Your inability to cite a single case that shows you are correct speaks volumes.

You can't even back up the nonsense you are pretending is in the Constitution....




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