RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does This Mean For You?

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RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 3:48:48 AM

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chathamvahere: I like the point you brought up about how "Pushing limits" (and allowing them to be pushed) sometimes "proves" (there has to be a better word to use here, but I can't think f it at the moment) or increases a feeling of trust between partners. Thanks for the reply.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to chathamvahere)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 4:31:01 AM

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Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

Pushing limits?
Some of us (and me for sure) have been
knocking sparks off the guardrails just for the helluvit.

Much of what's been said is about physical limits,
and not being a sadist, I can contribute nothing,
'cause them ain't the limits I'l looking to push.

For me, in the dom/sub space,
the limits I like to dance with are the emotional
and psychological ones.

Would I explicity ask or tell when I wanted to stretch her emotional limits?

No, because that would create walls, moats, and barricades
just where I was planning to enter.

I'm reminded of a lovely woman in Marin
who is a gem and a marvel (and still available, for the right man).
In our lengthy correspondence, this sweet masomamma
made it VERY clear she hated to be tickled,
and had not cried in 10 years.

I filed that away, and weeks later, when we met,
I had my goals set on lusty physical laughter,
and some beautiful crystaline tears.

*******
Are tears, tickling and laughter too dangerous to play with?

I thought, and still think, not.

As I recall, she had a marvelous time,
and some limits were pushed,
perhaps even heaved over that same guardrail
and dumped into the ravine.

DD, a frisky old goat who likes a challenge here and there.

PS....SOE, how do you remember this?
Is my version anything at all like your reality?

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 4:37:35 AM

sleazybutterfly

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When Master pushes my limits, or the ones I think I have, he is (goodness forbid) "testing" me on what I would allow to be done, or how far I would allow him to go. I don't see this as a bad thing, I see it as him helping me grow and put my trust in him more. I know in my head he would never hurt me for real, so when I hold onto my ideas of what I can handle, I am not giving that over in a total way to him. When he pushes me past that pain, past that point I want to say no, he is showing me that I can take more than I ever thought, and I feel it makes the bond that he and I have already even stronger.

When it is over and he says "See, you just passed a limit you had set for yourself, how does it feel?". I am not upset that limit was passed, I am proud of myself and I feel good that he is proud of me also.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to DoctorDubious)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 4:39:29 AM

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I like to gauge and stay within limits, then also push and stretch them. Depends on the chemistry, the day and the sub involved, trust instilled etc. :)

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(in reply to chathamvahere)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 4:43:03 AM

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Hi Susan

responding from the submissive perspective, I don't think I have an absolute answer to your questions ( all of them very good btw ) but I guess I can contribute my take on "pushing limits" from my own experience...limited albeit.
and the 2 relationships I can draw from were relationships and not casual play or bottoming to a Top ( because I also feel, like others have posted, that that is a different situation and limits are discussed prior and always adhered to by a Top....)

For me, pushing my limits meant taking me out of my comfort zone (often times preconceived ) and encouraging me ( in varous types of his ways of doing that ) to go beyond what I thought I could do, create, feel, tolerate, endure....physically, emotionally, socially, psychologically....
whether that be something as vanilla as public speaking in social settings I might have been uncomfy in, to making my body gradually endure more extreme sensations.

Sometimes the relationship itself causes the submissive to move her/himself forward and past limitations, vs having the dominant "push" ..... Master never pushed me to beg, but at some point that is where my submission and my desire to show him the depth of my feelings and devotion took me. HE never pushed me to write poetry ( I already did and had for years ) but the relationship inspired it in me and I couldn't crank them out fast enough, the words just spilled out of me> and I even had the courage to submit several and saw one in publication..

Simply said, pushing my limits helped me grow as a person in my experiences and in the way I saw and felt about myself and my own capablities and strengths. His pushing my limits did not make me do anything I wasn't capable of doing all along but it illuminated what ( and who ) was already there. Something he could see I could do but perhaps I couldn't see yet.

IMO
there are limits that can be pushed and some that are never meant to be. But, I think even that has to be taken on an individual basis...
meaning> the dominant takes the time to find out about "the person and the psyche" that that limit is behind, and then makes an informed judgement call...
again> this is in a committed relationship and done over time, not applying to casual play etc..

Not gonna sit and list my soft limits and hard limits..
many of them altered greatly over the course of 10 years..

But, I do know that even a hard limit can change..
example:
When I first entered the relationship, I had a deep phobia about having my face covered. I ( had been like this for years, even as a child) would go into a severe panic attack if my nose and mouth were covered at the same time...
so listed "hoods" ( and still do by the way lol ) as a hard limit..never ever wanting that to be breeched..
it eventually was with his time and patience and gradual encouragement ( altho' he never really put me in a hood..but was able to cover my mouth and nose with his hand at some point. ) ...I still panic in that situation, but learned not to with him...
I consider that a hardlimit I was taught to move because it was possible to push it> I didn't think so, but HE did LOL>.

flipping da coin>>>
another hard limit I listed but he knew never to push:
my daughter is off limits.
He knew ME well enough to know he would see and eat my dust if he ever even came close to even hinting..
( its not in his character and I already knew this on some level going in im sure, but was still listed .. )

so there are some hard limits one never pushes...

I know I have rambled..
Ive been told " I build a clock, to tell someone the time" ...sheesh...

good topic, thanks Susan

Cyndi ( who still needs to find a creative signature )

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 5:00:14 AM

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I appreciate all of the replies. Hi to Dr. D (and everyone else, too - it's been awhile since I was on the boards) here.

I am getting ready to go out of town tomorrow, and my day is packed, but I will be back on August 10th (I am not intentionally "abandoning" this thread. I thank everyone for their well-thought out replies, and hope they continue.

I'll try to check in later today. Thanks to all.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/3/2007 5:01:32 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Cyntilating)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 5:40:26 AM

Rover

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For the most part, I think the pushing of limits is a clever phrase to make it seem as though there's a noble purpose to playing a little harder or further.

John

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Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 6:42:42 AM

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For me, there's always a psychological/emotional component to limits. If a limit is 'real' as opposed to something I don't want to do because I'm not interested, I don't really enjoy it, or it doesn't really turn me on, then crossing it will cause some kind of distress and probably bring me out of a submissive head space. I know when I'm getting close to a limit because I can feel the twinges of anxiety/panic and if the activity continues, I become erratic and unstable. If I'm with someone I trust and feel affection for, I might hide my face, flap my hands or do some other physical thing and start talking fast and a little inchoherantly. If I'm with someone I perceive to be a threat (real or imagined), or am in a threatening situation, I shut down psychologically and go cold, doing whatever I need to get through whatever's happening, maybe fighting back, maybe taking the path of least resistance. If I go cold, it just means I'll have an anxiety attack later when I'm by myself and feel safe.

I don't really know my limits in advance and they vary from day to day and are different with different people. I know, in general, the sorts of things I've had trouble with in the past but never know when something's going to become or cease to be an issue. I'm really good at recognizing the signs of imending doom, and will alert my partner. My ability to trust Him and willingness to stay with Him is directly related to his sensitivity to my cues, verbal or otherwise.

Pushing limits, in my mind, has to be done with care and is always risky. Because of the risks, I would only be amenable to pushing if there were a clear benefit. For example, vomit freaks me out. I don't have a problem with this as a limit (think roman showers...its on my no list.) as I can't imagine a world where my life would be improved if I could handle being exposed to vomit. On the other hand, I have issues with people being angry at me. Its not a huge problem, but there's been times when I've chosen less than personally optimal courses of action out of a fear of someone getting mad at me. So, I can imagine that getting over that limit would make me a better person, more capable and able to navigate life.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 7:07:26 AM

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Literally speaking, I do not allow people to push my limits. I do not have "soft" limits. I have things I will NOT do, and things that are negotiable. The things I will NOT do are simply not pushed, not prodded, not broken, not anything except not dealt with.

However, when used more casually, I define it as Ex did "Taking any activity beyond what the people can usually tolerate."

Since a limit is supposedly something that doesn't get crossed, it's obviously that most people are using the term badly since a lot of people enjoy pushing/breaking limits. Or that they like the faux security that "having a soft limit" brings them, but everyone knows full well they are willing to put out for it if they feel hot/sexy/secure enough.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to chathamvahere)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 7:33:34 AM

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When a dominant views a limit as a challenge it suggests to me that he/she does not give the submissive the benefit of self-awareness or give them credit for knowing what would be harmful.
There may be numerous areas where I lack experience or have no real interest, but those things are not limits and I make it clear that I am willing to explore them and learn.
My limits are there for a reason. I am willing to discuss and explain my rationale.
If he persists and pushes those limits he invalidates what I know to be true about myself. At that point it is less about my growth as a submissive and more about his carelessness for my well-being.

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"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 7:38:04 AM

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Well said Catize, and not nearly often enough!

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 8:20:18 AM

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quote:

Since a limit is supposedly something that doesn't get crossed,

I guess I looking at it a little differently, something along the lines of the way people use the word "liminal." Going through a liminal experience is always transformative (for better or worse) and ya come out of it a different person. Limits, for me, define the boundaries of the functional self. Crossing them is risky because it creates a psychologically ambiguous situation, and the consequences are unpredictable, but not necessarily destructive of the psyche depending on how resilliant one is. They're subjective in nature.

There is stuff that I simply will not even entertain as a possible activity and have no tolerancce for. If a person even seems interested in it, I probably wouldn't be interested in hanging out with them or want to be associated with them. They're the sort of thing that would make me back away from a person. These are areas where I have strong ethical/moral committments that can't be suspended and aren't subject to any negotiation. They aren't so much about what I would or would not do under some conditions, but about what should or should not be done under any conditions. These have an element of objectivity, even if that objectivity is subjectively constructed.

I'm feeling philosophical today. :)

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 8:35:01 AM

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In the past I have learned that things I thought were limits weren't really limits afterall, so I don't really have a defined list of hard limits. But there are a bunch of things that would be hard for me to do, or things that I wouldn't like etc, but this doesn't mean I want those things "respected". I hunger to be pushed past those things by whatever psychological warfare the dominant employs that will work. My first dom used to just use the fact that I wanted to please him so badly--he used to work my head with that, and he got me to do things I never thought I could or would do. I didn't end up damaged or injured because of it either. I kind of felt proud of myself. But then, I chose someone that I knew wouldn't do harm to me in that regard. I think its more about the choice of partner than laying out a list of things you wont do...If you're not with someone you trust, they may not respect your list anyway.

I do let a potential partner know who I am as a person during the "getting to know you stage"...such as describing any hang-ups or phobias. But I don't do this in some kind of methodical way. It just comes out in conversation. And at the same time, I am making my own asessements about the sanity of the person I am considering putting my trust in.

To me the whole limits thing almost spills out into the whole safe word thing. I have an extreme confidence in my own ability to convey to another person whether or not they are doing something to me that I cannot handle or something that is freaking me out.   And I have an extreme confidence in myself with regard to choosing a partner that is perceptive enough to understand something like that.

By the time I am ready to put myself in their hands physically and emotionally, I've already reconciled with the fact that I'm taking some level of informed risk (for lack of a better term). And I personally would never take a "risk" with someone that I think lacks perception and an ability to communicate. Alot of this is on the job learning....Afterall, sometimes neither partner knows where the line is until you're at it and considering crossing it, so I certainly wouldnt be doing this with someone who I didnt think was sane or with someone who needs to run a checklist through his head before he touches me.  I'd rather he read me, than a list of acts that I think I can or cannot do. This is why the whole limits discussion never even comes up for me anymore (tho it did when I was totally green).  And if a dominant brings it up to me now, it sort of reminds me of a castlerealm thing.

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I give good agita.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 11:03:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoctorDubious

Pushing limits?
Some of us (and me for sure) have been
knocking sparks off the guardrails just for the helluvit.

Much of what's been said is about physical limits,
and not being a sadist, I can contribute nothing,
'cause them ain't the limits I'l looking to push.

For me, in the dom/sub space,
the limits I like to dance with are the emotional
and psychological ones.

Would I explicity ask or tell when I wanted to stretch her emotional limits?

No, because that would create walls, moats, and barricades
just where I was planning to enter.

I'm reminded of a lovely woman in Marin
who is a gem and a marvel (and still available, for the right man).
In our lengthy correspondence, this sweet masomamma
made it VERY clear she hated to be tickled,
and had not cried in 10 years.

I filed that away, and weeks later, when we met,
I had my goals set on lusty physical laughter,
and some beautiful crystaline tears.

*******
Are tears, tickling and laughter too dangerous to play with?

I thought, and still think, not.

As I recall, she had a marvelous time,
and some limits were pushed,
perhaps even heaved over that same guardrail
and dumped into the ravine.

DD, a frisky old goat who likes a challenge here and there.

PS....SOE, how do you remember this?
Is my version anything at all like your reality?

My dear Doctor Dubious,

My recollection of our meeting was that by the time we met I would have done anything for you and loved doing it. If you hadn't pushed me past my limits, it would have been a terrible waste of such complete surrender. I wonder what would have happened had we ever met again?

MarinMasoMama

(in reply to DoctorDubious)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 11:33:41 AM

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I've found that even my hard limits can be pushed with enough communication. When I have expressed a fear or declared a limit one that could not be crossed, if the Sir or Master took time to address these issues, made me more comfortable with the process involved, and made me feel secure enough, the limits became "soft" and could be pushed. Of course I would not allow a casual play partner to push any limits (I don't do casual play anyway). It falls under trust and reasonable expectations.

I have not been faced with crossing moral or legal limits, so that isn't something I can speak on. I would say that I would never cross those lines, but "never" tends to prove the speaker wrong; so I will just leave it at I doubt those limits to be up for pushing.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to CelticHeart)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 11:48:31 AM

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To me pushing limits can be something that is taboo for a partner that she or he thinks about a lot and has a desire to experience it but needs the right "set up" for it to happen. If it's a hard limit to me, then I'm not interested in pushing them, but I have met people who's hard limits do change as a relationship progresses and when that happens then in the right frame of mind and conneciton I may push on those as well.

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(in reply to chathamvahere)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 2:45:07 PM

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I really appreciate the replies. Thanks.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to DarkDaddyZ)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 3:47:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDaddyZ

To me pushing limits can be something that is taboo for a partner that she or he thinks about a lot and has a desire to experience it but needs the right "set up" for it to happen. If it's a hard limit to me, then I'm not interested in pushing them, but I have met people who's hard limits do change as a relationship progresses and when that happens then in the right frame of mind and conneciton I may push on those as well.

Yep. 'Zackly.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to DarkDaddyZ)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 5:05:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

chathamvahere: I like the point you brought up about how "Pushing limits" (and allowing them to be pushed) sometimes "proves" (there has to be a better word to use here, but I can't think f it at the moment) or increases a feeling of trust between partners. Thanks for the reply.

- Susan

When a Dom's actions inspire and/or encourage trust, are those better words?

With experience I have learned to be more relaxed regarding things that I once thought of as strictly off-limits. I'm naturally curious and enjoy exploring, but that goes back to the trust issue. That goes for both sub and Dom.

It's all about communication, which makes it extremely important is that I am honest with a Dom, and he with me, even if it's something that may embarrass me or make me feel uncomfortable. How else can he learn what makes me tick, so to speak, and learn to read my breaking points or realize that I am able to take more, and can push me to experience things on a higher level.

In the end, exploring the possibilities is about honesty with one's self as well as with each other and a willingness to expand. You win some, you lose some. More often than not, you win a lot more than you lose, and it's an awesome discovery!

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: "Pushing someone's limits" - What Does Th... - 8/3/2007 5:22:13 PM

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I want my limits 'pushed'--I would never have discovered how much I love needle play if my original 'I don't do needle play' limit hadn't been tested and pushed...same with bull whips--I NEVER thought I would want to be whipped--but now even the sound of the whip makes my knees buckle... I want to be taken to the 'edge' of 'as far as I can go' then nudged over the edge...

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(in reply to SusanofO)

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