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RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 7:40:18 AM

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Another subject related but different than my prior post. I do not consider seeing a professional dominant as being unloyal to my wife. Dildo worship and boot licking is about the farthest limit I would go. Once at the Chateau, a domme wanted me to worship her breasts, and I called my safeword. Although I have requested release in my sessions in earlier years, I have not released during a session for the last 5 years. Partly, this is because the sessions have got so much intense and physically, I am not able to release at the end of a session. Just exhausted!!

Now, I will get attached for saying that this is not cheating, but I am doing it to save my relationship. Period!! To me, it is therapy.

(in reply to DiannaVesta)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 7:45:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Dianna, to play off of what earthycouple brought up, do you ever ask these men to tell their spouses? Do you encourage them to do that?

Yes, of course. I don’t encourage infidelity. When I begin a relationship with anyone I get to know them and understand what has been going on in their life. If I sense there is a chance for them to explore this together then by all means.

When I take on any slave I want him/her to be the best they can be. To find happiness, peace and balance. That is the work I do first and when I reap benefits from it even better.

I think this is an excellent thing to do and I applaud you for encouraging them to explore it with their spouse if they can.

For me, personally, I don't even accept subs who are in other relationships any more because of bad past relationships that grew out of that and because I demand to be at the top of their priority list.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to DiannaVesta)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 7:46:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta

I recently posted this at Femsupreme and wanted to get your views here too.

I’ve discussed this topic before a bit but wanted to once again revisit it. Over the years my ideas and concerns have changed. At first I had a hard time seeing married men and at one point refused, however as of late I have taken a very active interest in married men and training them. It’s actually a spiritual feeling I get over the whole thing and without sounding crazy that is exactly what I’m suppose to be doing.

So let’s take “Mike”, for example. He has been married for 20 years, has children and has had an interest in female domination most of his life. He’s gone to see professionals, has had affairs that conflicted with his marriage and tired desperately to push his feelings away. He might be successful with this for a time but feelings of guilt and frustration quickly cloud his world. He often battles with depression and mood swings. It affects his entire world. He fantasizes about escaping, leaving his family and living as a slave where all of his worries are erased away. It’s an ongoing trap where no one is fulfilled; not Joe or his family.

So I accept Mike for training. Training requires a commitment, so to speak to follow through various tasks. He is asked to build an altar not to worship so much as a daily point of focus. Now you’re thinking how can he so this with a family, right? An altar is simple a place in his home or office that he keeps fresh flowers and maybe a candle. Nothing metaphysical but a place he must look at daily and close his eyes to repeat (to himself) a short incantation. He is also given other task and taught various lessons in manners, massage, adoration, respect for women and even his diet. Mike has been overweight and not as healthy as he should be due to life’s stresses. He follows the lessons and he is also rewarded with the ability to safely and discreetly explore his fantasies in a cerebral and non-threatening capacity. He is asked to practice and perform simple acts of adoration for his wife. He can still feel the balance of being owned, his fantasy and yet it integrates with his existing lifestyle. Within a few months Mike feels better about himself and his relationship with his wife has become enhanced. Maybe not to the point where he can confess his submissive needs but in his daily actions.

I’ve seen positive results from this.

So I’m wondering your thoughts and feelings on this subject. If you’re a man that has served a mistress and felt that it’s enhanced your life then I would like to here from you too. Or if you do not have a mistress, you are married and have found your fantasies to conflict with your relationship and everyday life in some fashion or another.

In essence I see you acting not as a professional dominatrix, but as a counselor or therapist. It is sometimes difficult to seperate the physical needs from the emotional ones, let alone throwing in more complications of specific desires and interests. I think where it gets sticky is the crossing of that invisible line, where one becomes intimate. Not sexual intimacy, but emotional. I think the person who has a deep-seated desire to submit also has an associated desire to bare his soul to his Mistress, so that she can truly see him for who he is, the trappings of society pulled away so that only the submissive remains. I'm not married, but I would tend to think that any spouse would be hurt by this, discovering that their partner can't share that deep emotional bond with them.

Of course, this is one of the primary reasons that professional dominatrixes exist - they CAN understand this need, and at least for a short period, help the submissive to express it. I think its when the desire to submit crosses over into the overtly sexual side that things get squicky. Is it cheating if guy submits to a spanking? What about if he's tied to a St. Andrews cross and flogged? I'd say that no, he's not. But if you throw in a strap-on, or even kissing and licking his Mistress' toes, then you get into a more gray area.

From the scene you describe about training Mike, I absolutely do not see it as any form of cheating. You stated that at his altar "He is asked to practice and perform simple acts of adoration for his wife". Had you said something like he was to worship you at the altar and not his wife, that would be a different matter. But here you were teaching him to deal with his desires within his marriage. To me that is the essence of therapy. If I were to go to a therapist and spill my guts about myself, and they helped me understand my desires and how to control them, or at least live with them, then they would be doing their job. If, however, they tried to change me to better fit their own view, to me that would be akin to a dominatrix training a married man to worship and obey her and to place his wife second. That's cheating, and wrong. At least to me it would be.

(in reply to DiannaVesta)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 7:52:50 AM

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chuckra I just wanted to say that there are alternatives to having a spouse who does BDSM with you and not telling your spouse if you are exploring BDSM.

Maybe I'm just a big poly freak but I really think that if someone's spouse can't offer them things that make them happy, they should then open up the relationship to allow them each to find what is missing or lacking with others. The degree to which you tell each other details will vary between couples but at least this way no one is lying or hiding things.

Perhaps you all ready have this agreement but I didn't notice that in your first post in this thread (which is what I'm replying to). Just another route to consider.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to chuckra)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 8:00:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yesmaam07

Hello everyone. Thanks to whoever started this thread. i too am married, and my wife has no idea of my submissive desires (or at least she hasn't indicated that she does). Fortunately, i don't have any kids at this point. i was in denial at first, but now i admit that my secret is harming my marriage, in that my level of intimacy is no where near as what it should be. my problem is probably the same as a lot of the married men on this site who's wives are in the dark - i'm scared to bring it up to my wife because i'm scared of her reaction. How can i get past that fear? i would appreciate any suggestions.

Sometimes the only way to get over a fear is to just do it.

You might want to seek professional therapy (not BDSM, but mental health care help) where you can discuss what you need, run through ideas about what might happen when you open up to your wife, and even a venue in which to talk to her about it.

If that doesn't appeal to you, you can try writing out scenarios of what you think might happen when you tell your wife. You can also practice what words to use and how/where/when to talk.

Have you seen this video? I think it could offer you good advice alone but also with your wife.

"Whipsmart: A Good Vibrations Guide to Beginning S/M for Couples"

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to yesmaam07)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 8:06:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

petdave: You have a definite right to your opinion, and I am glad that you can muster this kind of emotional stamina (and I am not dissing you - I think it can be admirable). Some people cannot do this, though - especially when faced with the possibility of no sex or BDSM activity for an entire life-time. What people rarely seem to consider in these discussions is the scenario where a person tells their spouse they are either cheating (or considering it) and:

1) The spouse wants an instant divorce (when the other partner may not, and it might hurt the UMs, or simply just the financial stability of one spouse, or both, which actually is no small consideration) OR maybe their spouse won't divorce (when the other partner wants to do it), but then won't re-consider their sexual and-or BDSM-related approach to their marriage, either.

2) The partner who is told "the awful truth" says: "Well, just stop doing what you're doing. You don't "need" that outlet for yourself, and I think it's disgusting" (or something similar).

Sometimes, to top it off, they still refuse to have sex and-or even try BDSM activity at all. So - it's pretty much "back to square one" for the cheating spouse. Such things as having an "open marriage" etc, if discussed at all, are dismissed as immoral, and are never taken very seriously.

This can leave someone feeling as if they have no options, and as if they've been doomed to Hell forever, like a bird with wings that somone just clipped off, and wrapped a rope around its neck and then tossed into the bottom of a very deep ocean.

- Susan

I'm not a therapist and I don't work for one but I do use one.

I think a mental health care professional and a relationship therapist can help a lot with both of the above issues including before you tell your spouse the truth.

If it comes down to it and someone's spouse won't accept an open marriage, or do kink with them, or even give them a divorce then they may indeed feel like they have no option but to find other venues and hide that from their spouse. Though at that point why you'd need to hide it is escaping me frankly.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 8:40:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: planomaid
In essence I see you acting not as a professional dominatrix, but as a counselor or therapist. It is sometimes difficult to seperate the physical needs from the emotional ones, let alone throwing in more complications of specific desires and interests. I think where it gets sticky is the crossing of that invisible line, where one becomes intimate. Not sexual intimacy, but emotional. I think the person who has a deep-seated desire to submit also has an associated desire to bare his soul to his Mistress, so that she can truly see him for who he is, the trappings of society pulled away so that only the submissive remains. I'm not married, but I would tend to think that any spouse would be hurt by this, discovering that their partner can't share that deep emotional bond with them.

I am a spiritual healer, IMO. Then again my views have always been different then most. For instance I believe and support the sex industry. What I don’t support is exploitation. Unfortunately everything good has a dark side and a personal agenda.

Yes, I’m sure the spouse would be hurt. As discussed, it all very complicated. It is also sexual even if it’s not exchanging body fluids. I don’t know about you but my mind is my most active sex organ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: planomaid
From the scene you describe about training Mike, I absolutely do not see it as any form of cheating. You stated that at his altar "He is asked to practice and perform simple acts of adoration for his wife". Had you said something like he was to worship you at the altar and not his wife, that would be a different matter. But here you were teaching him to deal with his desires within his marriage. To me that is the essence of therapy. If I were to go to a therapist and spill my guts about myself, and they helped me understand my desires and how to control them, or at least live with them, then they would be doing their job. If, however, they tried to change me to better fit their own view, to me that would be akin to a dominatrix training a married man to worship and obey her and to place his wife second. That's cheating, and wrong. At least to me it would be.

Well that is somewhat of a dichotomy because in my training I do direct the focus to me. They agree to become my property and I am the focus of adoration. I may begin to direct them towards her once I have their attention and they begin to sense some relief. I’ve tired just talking with them and helping them with their marriage but that proved to be unsuccessfully. Let me elaborate some because it’s easy to get the wrong impression.

When I take a male on he is given The Essential Ten (the first steps in training). He reads a few articles and begins his journey. Everything he does places him into sub space. It’s a type of ritual/scene, so to speak where he is told he is property and expected to do things for me. Understand that it’s truly the dynamic he is seeking of giving up control, therefore I take control in all sorts of ways; stop smoking, stop drinking, no masturbation, what to eat, etc. etc. the list goes on and I also begin a type of seduction because to be honest this male has been so overwhelmed for so long very few things will penetrate him. He will gorge and purge in an endless cycle that has emotional repercussions. I’ve seen males that have spent years doing this to the point that they are almost dire straights having lost not only their essence but battling deep depression.

Anyhow, I take control and even when we chat or talk on the phone I call him slave and treat him as such. Like a child I apply the right amount of love and discipline brings order where there was chaos. You can hear it in their voice and feel it… they begin to get excited and in most cases begin following the training which will ultimately lead to transformation.

They are not permitted release without permission unless their wife requests it. They can not ask or expect it. I will explore fantasies over the phone with them and allow them to release themselves. I feel this is a necessary part of training. In fact there are some fantasies that should not be in their reality and I find nothing wrong with exploring them in your head during masturbation. Is this cheating? Perhaps, but it is an important element of training. I believe that libido contains spiritual essence and that it can stimulate transformation. This is where it gets complicated.

So now I really do own him mind, body and soul because I have found the key to unlock his spirit. Now he will comply and give me what I want because he knows this is a one shot deal. NOW I begin to direct him. He is already learning to massage, cook, clean, adore, honor, etc. I’ve got him in better health then he has been in years. I am able to encourage him because if he sticks to training for at least 3 months I will agree to meet with him and allow him visits. Not to cheat but to bring his training into reality and see how he does. This really motivates him. I expect him to follow my instructions. I make him practice on his wife and instruct him how to present it to her. What woman wouldn’t want candles, music and a long massage? Have you ever had a Yoni Massage? Well let me tell you that Tantra can damn sure put a flame into a relationship. He is taught how to adore and put his sexually needs aside while he focuses on the pleasure of a woman. All of her senses, something he has never been taught to do. When a woman is able to receive this unconditionally she opens like a flower and its one of life’s greatest mysteries.

It’s a process and it takes time because often they get consumed with life and fall off track but I allow them to get back on track any time. The only thing is that they have to start from the beginning.

Yes it does enhance marriages/relationships if he is truly committed to it. Will I lose him? Perhaps but in a good way. Like his first love I will always be his Goddess and the woman that showed him the way.

_____________________________

(in reply to planomaid)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 8:43:55 AM

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Dear Ms Vesta and Others,

Firstly, i am NOT married. i've been divorced for a number of years.

This marriage business is tricky. i think there's a prohibition about listing specific names, but there's an excellent website about 'seducing' your wife into being Dominant. It's on a female superiority website and rather good in my opinion.

i guess if anybody can pull it off, it's You, Ms. Vesta, but , because You're ethical, it'll be challenging i'm sure.

Sincerely,
PhDslave

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 9:10:02 AM

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Tammy Jo, respectfully, have you ever met someone that benefited from traditional therapy in reference to BDSM? If you have then the numbers are low, I would assume. I know that you and I come from different opinions but share some other things.

I’ve personally known many BDSM friendly therapist and we’ve talked extensively on this subject. To a point I agree but there are so many factors that academic text, as we know it today, do not address.

I have strong opinions on the medical field and its extreme cases I will agree to go to a doctor and I have some very good friends that are doctors. They actually email and call me often because a patient has requested an alternative. A lot can be done with herbs, plants, meditation, taking stress away and changing your diet. Not only physically but emotionally.

I am not dismissing therapy at all. Like medicine it has its place but I know, first hand that some things need a more esoteric and holistic approach.

I have talked to countless men and women that have engaged in years of therapy with no real resolve. Yes, maybe a better understanding of themselves and hopefully that aids them in their relationships. This is actually much deeper then I have touched on in this thread…the reasons I feel some men embark on this journey in the first place. There is no amount of conventional therapy that will even touch it.

I might discuss that here or I may choose not to. I’m not sure yet. I am feeling a little stir crazy today, too much coffee, overworked and my son is getting married this weekend! So I’m going to take the day off and go hang with my sister and mom.

I’ll be back!

_____________________________

(in reply to DiannaVesta)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 9:27:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PhDslave

Dear Ms Vesta and Others,

Firstly, i am NOT married. i've been divorced for a number of years.

This marriage business is tricky. i think there's a prohibition about listing specific names, but there's an excellent website about 'seducing' your wife into being Dominant. It's on a female superiority website and rather good in my opinion.

i guess if anybody can pull it off, it's You, Ms. Vesta, but , because You're ethical, it'll be challenging i'm sure.

Sincerely,
PhDslave

PhDslave, sub fever is what your afflicted with! <pauses to bang head on table>You can not seduce another into being dominant but You can seduce one into dominating You and in this instance, who really has the control? D/s in comparison to "pleaser-type" of people. They'd have to be a highly motivated pleasers and a good actor as well to pull of domination.

Take the time to explore and learn the difference. It will be worth the wait.

(in reply to PhDslave)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 9:42:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

quote:

ORIGINAL: PhDslave

Dear Ms Vesta and Others,

Firstly, i am NOT married. i've been divorced for a number of years.

This marriage business is tricky. i think there's a prohibition about listing specific names, but there's an excellent website about 'seducing' your wife into being Dominant. It's on a female superiority website and rather good in my opinion.

i guess if anybody can pull it off, it's You, Ms. Vesta, but , because You're ethical, it'll be challenging i'm sure.

Sincerely,
PhDslave

PhDslave, sub fever is what your afflicted with! <pauses to bang head on table>You can not seduce another into being dominant but You can seduce one into dominating You and in this instance, who really has the control? D/s in comparison to "pleaser-type" of people. They'd have to be a highly motivated pleasers and a good actor as well to pull of domination.

Take the time to explore and learn the difference. It will be worth the wait.

I have helped many submissive men turn their women on to domination. The biggest problem in most relationships is that the woman has a notion of female domination based on porn, toys, and their husband being pushy and demanding. Of course they would be turned off. They think it's something done by freaks, they don't like the way it makes their man behave and the idea of toys and roleplay and outfits is silly at best, disgusting at worst.

In my experience, women are best introduced to the concept of female domination by learning to enjoy the foundation first, and then adapt to toys and more complicated activities. My belief is that MOST women can enjoy bdsm/femdom on some level. I have so many "vanilla" girlfriends that end up borrowing my toys or asking for ideas at some point; when I share with them what femdom does for *me*.

Deep down, in most women, there lies a sadistic streak, or a desire to see their man weakened by her beauty or passion, or vulnerable because of his lust for her. They don't want to see this all the time, nor do they want their man to act like a groveling fool. However, if you just observe the antics in high school and college, you see again and again the joy women take in making men jealous, making men cry, and deliberately breaking their heart even though they plan to get together because they get some little thrill in seeing their man shed real tears of vulnerability - for her. And what woman has not put on a sexy outfit to make her man want her, to tease him, to flirt from across the room, totally loving the empowering feeling it gives her?

The emotions and passion created in power exchange are intoxicating and exciting. When women get a taste of this, on their terms and without the drama and baggage associated with terms like "kinky sex" or "dominatrix" or "whips and chains" they find that it can be very rewarding. All it takes is a different approach by men. Most of them fail out of the gate, simply by the way they introduce it to their mate. Ie, pulling the box of "toys" out from under the bed and going "honey, I think you will like some of this, let's do some play." And immediately in her head she sees some Jerry Springer episode rolling, "My husband is a slave!" with him crawling around in a ball gag and trying to woof like a dog. No wonder she thinks her life is over!

Akasha

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(in reply to MISTRESSKUMA)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 10:30:46 AM

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I am sorry I posted that post, because this post really is about men. I guess I was just trying to get across what this situation can actually feel like when it happens, because in the past (on the General Discussion board anyway) when there have been conversations about this kind of topic, there are a lot of responses from folks who seem to think the answer is simple. I don't think it really always is simple. I am not worried about it anymore, because my husband is no longer around, and I did tell him what I was doing (he still did not approve - but at that point I just didn't even care).

I just met a new man (here at CM, as a matter of fact) and am relatively happy. But I remember very well the years of misery this situation caused me, and it was no picnic. I imagine the feeling is much the same for men, and sometimes - just telling your spouse doesn't really change the situation much.

That being said, I think getting a wife to seduce her husband in some kind of mode that can seem like Dominant might work, but might not. Some women would do it, but if they're not really Dominant, then the submissive feelings that brings out might be the result of mostly fantasizing (still) on the man's part, I imagine, If she's into it, then maybe she'd learn something. If your partner won't have any sex or BDSM activity at all, then I guess you're up a creek (in which case, therapy would be a great idea, IMO - if one's partner would agree to it. Even if not, you could go by yourself, just to get advice, I guess).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/15/2007 11:07:22 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to subguyca2000)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 10:31:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

PhDslave, sub fever is what your afflicted with! <pauses to bang head on table>You can not seduce another into being dominant but You can seduce one into dominating You and in this instance, who really has the control? D/s in comparison to "pleaser-type" of people. They'd have to be a highly motivated pleasers and a good actor as well to pull of domination.

Take the time to explore and learn the difference. It will be worth the wait.

AAkasha, The point I was aiming to reley, is I just don't believe that one can have the ability or power to *make* someone be dominant. But you *can* teach a people-pleaser to dominate. I like that you can teach a woman domination techniques to use on their subs, I'm sure the subs love this. <HUGS> But, dominance is a combination of inherent characteristics one has in daily life, and those dominant traits are present regardless of any knowledge of special topping techniques one has learned.

Looking for a Dominant woman is not the same as looking for a woman who can dominate as a ~pleasing~ act for their subby. A dominate is that way whether in a relationship with a sub or not. It is what and who they are and its their nature is to control and to dominate. There has to be more going on than "I'm a dominant, see the bag of tricks I have?"

Pretending to be dominate is as pitiful as faking an orgasm.

IT should not be defined by the encounter with the sub and how well they get into using external techniques or fancy "authorive" power words.

Like I said, PH-D slave best best is to put aside his subfever and take the time to find compatability or he will just find a pleaser-type of woman who can dominate His sex for Him. And this is power playing from the bottom, thus who is really in control in these instances.

If it can be learned if it isn't innate is a good question to know.  I believe techniques can be learned but the core is there or it is not and I would suspect the answer would be that it can't be learned (unless you are talking about fansy whip, chain tricks and clever phrases), either you have the dominate traits and enjoy using them or you don't.

However, it may well be that someone will step forward with hand raised to say that they've done just that. Perhaps someone who's a switch could give a more knowledgeable input by having experienced both sides of the same stick.

(in reply to MISTRESSKUMA)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 12:06:15 PM

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DiannaVesta - i'm certainly in the catagory of men in a LTR with a woman that does not have the interests in me being her sub. taking me like i crave to be taken, etc. it does limit the relationship, as i always have this deep, inner need and cravings for that type of play. it does not distroy the relationship, but does limit it to say the least.

and being in a LTR does limit the number of Dominant Women that are interested in chatting/emailing even sometimes, and for sure opportunities for me and a Women to bring E/each other to new levels of pleasure and excitement through other ways...

(in reply to DiannaVesta)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 12:38:27 PM

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People have to act like adults when look for a therapist -- you interview them, you are flat out honest about what you want to work on, and if they should ever try to steer you another direction, you walk.

Many people are far too passive when it comes to finding any health care professional -- when you are passive you get less than ideal help.

Don't go to therapy to fix your kinky, got to therapy to learn about how to communicate with your partner. See the difference?

Your therapist does not even need to know anything at all about BDSM to be a great therapist. A great therapist values the individual and the relationship -- in that order. They help the individual make better decisions, healthier decisions, and if that means staying in any given relationship, they help the client realize that. My/our therapist is a great therapist and she knew nothing about kink or poly before meeting us -- she taught herself but most important she stuck by her rules of "I help my clients help themselves."

Any other expectation or idea about therapy is a huge mistake in my very strong opinion.

Men or women who just drop the "I need to be kinky" bomb on their spouse get the responses that rather simple and, yes, I'll say it, immature approach rightly deserves.

Invest time in figuring out how to communicate with a partner first before you come out of your closet. Give them the resources they might need to deal with the information.

Be true to yourself but that never means you have to force someone to do something they don't want or that you have to force yourself to be someone you aren't. It might however mean that you do hurt someone and are hurt in return.

I feel little empathy for folks who claim they can't tell their spouses or partners. What I hear them really saying is that they are afraid of what might happen. Well, yes, who wouldn't be afraid of the unknown?

Hiding one's sexuality and one's desires from one's partners isn't dealing with them, it is pure and simple hiding them. Each time you hide I think you are actually adding to the possible negative outcomes if you should ever choose to approach. Each time you hide I think you are killing a little bit of your own soul by feeding those beliefs that what you want is wrong or bad, those beliefs that feed the fear of what your partner might do.

Therapy with the appropriate therapist (don't be passive about that) helps erase that fear by exposing it to reality and helping you see it for what it really is: just fear, only an emotion, damned scary but only an emotion.

I know that I have an expectation here that people will be honest about themselves. I realize that is very scary to a lot of people and even worse it can be work that might last years and years.

Our opinions were asked, so I gave mine. The only people I require to share it are those in my household.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to DiannaVesta)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 12:49:36 PM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I am sorry I posted that post, because this post really is about men. I guess I was just trying to get across what this situation can actually feel like when it happens, because in the past (on the General Discussion board anyway) when there have been conversations about this kind of topic, there are a lot of responses from folks who seem to think the answer is simple. I don't think it really always is simple. I am not worried about it anymore, because my husband is no longer around, and I did tell him what I was doing (he still did not approve - but at that point I just didn't even care).

Simple?!

It isn't bloody simple at all to be honest about these sorts of issues with your vanilla partner. It wasn't simple for those of us who knew before the relationship and approached the topic.

For me this is about doing what is best for the individual and I will never believe that lying about and hiding one's sexuality is ever what is best. Even if in the worst case you have to die after telling the truth, at least you died being true to yourself.

However that doesn't mean that you have to tell the truth alone or out of the blue or in a poor fashion. This is not the middle ages. We know more and value more about the individual and relationships. Use that collective knowledge to begin the journey that will help your learn what is the best approach for you and your partner.

All these folks living in fear of what might happen.

I did that too for the majority of my life.

Having now freed myself from that motivation for my life, my actions and my decisions, I can never imagine going back. I could never be half the person I am today had I continued to live in fear. Feeding that fear required so much energy that there was little left for happiness or other positives beyond fleeting moments.

I know that staying with that fear is very tempting -- it is what you know and as the saying goes "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't" but that too is a lie our minds use to feed the fear. I wish we all would stop feeding our fears.

I'm in no way claiming that telling your partner means that she/he will become your ideal top or bottom.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 4:35:25 PM

Posts: 1596
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline

If a married sub wants me to train him, I always tell him I will only if his wife is willing
to sit in on all of our sessions. If he doesn't want her to know about it, then I will not
have anything to do with him.

Diane

< Message edited by DianeB269 -- 8/15/2007 4:36:11 PM >

(in reply to DiannaVesta)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 5:07:39 PM

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

tammyjo: I wasn't dissing you (honest). I was speaking of mostly the people who respond to these kinds of posts whenever they are on the General Discussion message forum here at CM, not you. I think you have a great head on your shoulders (I always have). The situation is no longer a problem for me, personally, I was remembering at one time how much it was (it was no fun).

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to DianeB269)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 6:16:06 PM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

tammyjo: I wasn't dissing you (honest). I was speaking of mostly the people who respond to these kinds of posts whenever they are on the General Discussion message forum here at CM, not you. I think you have a great head on your shoulders (I always have). The situation is no longer a problem for me, personally, I was remembering at one time how much it was (it was no fun).

- Susan

I'm sorry if I sounded pissed.

It was more tired, tired of the entire "I can't tell" thing that comes up repeatedly.

I wasn't tried at you, Susan, but at the general repeats of this mantra. It wears on me like the "I can't find a Mistress" mantras that get repeated wears on others I'm sure.

A general comment further.

Saying "can't" is ignoring the power that each of us has in our own lives.

We may not want to, we may have fears, and we may make choices about how, when and where, but it is a lie to say we "can't" tell our partners about our kinky desires.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submission & Married Men - 8/15/2007 6:40:15 PM

Posts: 74
Joined: 9/24/2005
Status: offline

Sub fever? i'm not feverish about this. i'm just saying that the thoughts of a formally trained Female psychologist who has a submissive husband of decades and who runs a successful counseling enterprise for mostly married men who seek submission in their marriages seem to make sense to me. Just read what She has to say on Her femalesuperiority website. She encourages the men NOT to be 'kinky' or pushy, but sweet and attentive. The eventual result in most cases is not some whip cracking, leather clad, hardcore dominatrix, but a Woman who has renewed confidence in herself. She values and appreciates the change in behavior of her husband. Look, maybe you think She's wrong and has misinterpreted twenty years worth of experience. Fine. i couldn't care less. i'm simply pointing married men to a possible resource and approach. Not being married or having tons of experience, i'm not emotionally invested in Her ideas. Just read them for yourself and decide for yourself.

(in reply to SusanofO)

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