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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 5:44:54 AM

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Typically when there is no answer, then I presume the answer is no. However, after three years of belonging to him, I know which types of things he'd say yes to and which he would not. If my Mom wants to get together and Master had no previous plans to see or contact me, I can make an assumption that it would be okay with him, even if I didn't hear back. However, if we already had plans, then it is not up to me to decide it's okay to break them. If it's a friend who wants to go out and I haven't received a response from him, I do not go, even if I don't have plans with him.

In a world where text messages, mobile IM's, smart phones with email, telephones and voicemail are all in our grasp, I really have no excuse for not getting messages to him. But if by chance he does not receive them, then I forego plans.

In your case, if she knew you were expecting her and had no reply from you, well most restaurants still have payphones I think, and I'm sure her grandfather's house had a phone she could call from. Between this issue and the birthday party issue, I'm thinking either an expectation has not been set for her about the priorities of communicating to you, or she simply disregards them. In either case, there is work to be done.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 6:09:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

Having a default policy makes sense. This is the first time we had encountered a situation where it was needed. She now has rules in place:
16) Be on time arriving where and when told, or pay a 5 minute corner time penalty, an additional 5 minutes per late hour, and a maximum of 30 minutes due to lateness in the corner per day.
If you can't reach me to ask if you can have me change your orders, you can assume you'll be disciplined. If I don't say yes, or you can't reach me to get an answer, the answer isn't yes.

Yep a lot of the 'rules' (Other than baseline ones) are set in place to address things where something has occured where I wasn't happy with and whilst she doesn't usualy get in 'trouble' that first time (Unless she damn well KNEW I wouldn't approve). It is written off as a mistake and the situation either clarified or a rule set to cover it for future times.

The one thing I would 'question' in your aproach... you lock yourself into a set method of disciplining. Not My approach as there maybe all manner of reasons and any discipline route I go includes evaluating the reasons for the breach of rule. I am more focused on maintaining discipline than playing 'punishment games'

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(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 6:21:49 AM

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Im having issues with this OP because the dinner date in question is a grandfather....in my mind..and luckily the mind of my Sir....that kinda changes the entire situation. What exactly is the problem? That you are angry because the phone didnt work? That she went to dinner with her grandfather eventhough she was unable to ask you direct permission? Apperently she did send you a message telling you what was going on.....you honestly cant punish her for Ma Bells shortcomings. If she decided to go hang out at a bar instead of be where you told her to be at a certain time...Of course Id say punishment is due...but family..especially elder members of the family who wont always be around for those sorts of activities...really typically trump any other plans in my personal relationship. And this is coming from a sub who has had to run out in the middle of a scene or sex three times in the past year because flashy red lights showed up at some family members home in the middle of the night.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 6:31:45 AM

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My first question is what would have prevented her from calling, as she did request permission via text? Secondly, I get the impression that a large part of what you're feeling is anger and resentment. Six hours is indeed a long time. You need to let that go, it has no place in this problem. So, a few suggestions ...

1. If her phone has poor reception, then she needs one that will work. Make this happen, even if it means helping her pay to switch companies or buy a more expensive model of phone.

2. Text messages will simply not do. She must speak with you directly. If for some reason you cannot make yourself available, then a failsafe must be established. However, be prepared, even scripted, as to what she will tell her family or friends should she be unable to reach you and therefore not have permission to attend a family event, even if it is something as simple as attending dinner with Gramps. Caveat with this being, I don't know if her grandfather is elderly or ill. If either is the case, a certain amount of flexibility must be in place. How awful it would be if Gramps asked to see her, she didn't get to go because she was unable to get permission from you, and he passed away.

3. Start putting some thought into every action and every rule you make. Make an honest effort to plan for all contingencies. Sounds like you're flying by the seat of your pants here, and that just doesn't work.

4. Sit down with your girl and talk. Talk about her relationship with her family, so that you understand how important it is to her. Some people have deeper relationships with their family members than others. It might be that what doesn't seem important to you, is very important to her. Don't judge her or attempt to change or dissaude her. Find out what her feelings and beliefs are. Then, have a frank discussion about her expectations and yours. Sounds like a lot of your problems are stemming from communications problems, and not just in the technological sense.

5. If you want this to work, you have to work. It's not a "I give the orders and you follow them" deal. It's just not that black and white. If you're unwilling to put in the effort necessary, then you need to take a long and personal re-evaluation of yourself. Same goes for her. She has to put in the effort too, to make it work.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 6:40:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

Having a default policy makes sense. This is the first time we had encountered a situation where it was needed. She now has rules in place:
16) Be on time arriving where and when told, or pay a 5 minute corner time penalty, an additional 5 minutes per late hour, and a maximum of 30 minutes due to lateness in the corner per day.
If you can't reach me to ask if you can have me change your orders, you can assume you'll be disciplined. If I don't say yes, or you can't reach me to get an answer, the answer isn't yes.

This whole thing really bothers me. Life is not black and white, how can you realistically set up a rule and a consequence that is appropriate for anything that might come up? Much less, a numbered list? Do you tack this to the wall?

Yikes.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 7:21:10 AM

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Well everyones has said most of my thoughts already. If I really wasn't sure, I'd go with what history has taught me, try and err on the side of caution AND keep trying to directly contact the person. Now, my partner and I are really casual- I KNOW he'd want me to have a night out with family if given the opportunity. I also KNOW he'd be freaking out if I didn't let him know what was going on and just disappeared for hours without being able to reach me. I'm surprised grandpa didn't have a landline to call before going out to dinner also, and I'm surprised (slightly) that AK chose not to be part of another family function.

It really does seem that little, if any, progress has been made since the last incident occurs. Your first issue is always with punishment, rather than working on the direct communication and expectation problem. Stop caring so much about the RULES and care more about how things WORK.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 7:59:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

My slave was told to be home at a certain time, with penalties in place for not arriving when she was due. Her grandpa wanted to take her out to dinner, and she asked me via texting my cell phone. The text messages never arrived, and when she was about six hours late I finally got a message from her saying what she was doing and asking permission which my silence was unable to give. I am trying to decide how to treat situations where my lack of an answer constitutes a yes, or that is how it is being treated, apparently. Six hours late also seems quite excessive. I'd like to know how others deal with or treat the issue of getting permission long distance, and what defines permission or lack of obedience. I did tell her that I don't consider an act of god tantamount to disobedience, and that's an exception. Is being unable to reach me viewable as an act of god? If I do punish her, do it tonight or explain that this isn't considered an act of god and punish if it happens in the future?
Looking forward to thought provoking posts,
Thanks

You guys seem to have a lot of issues.

That being said, I would not have depended on a text message to get permission for something, I would have just called, and if my owner didn't answer, leave him a voice message. Then I'd probably try to reach him again until I actually heard him say yes or no. I've had to many voice and text messages reach the recipient days afterwards to rely on that as a method of communciation.

How should you handle it? Depends on your parameters for whats acceptable and not acceptable. If my owner expected me at a certain time and I was six hours late I'd get read the riot act, but punishment isn't a part of our relationship so I wouldn't be punished (though I'm sure there would be some sort of repurcussions).

C~

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 8:03:19 AM

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She should have tried to contact you an alternative way, but she didn't. Set up a communication system so this doesn't happen again in the furure.

She went to dinner with her grandfather, would you really want her to have told her grandpa no because she didn't hear back from you? That seems rather selfish and silly to me. Maybe you should consider that she doesn't like to be micro managed to this level. i would not be personally happy with a dom who expected me to sit around and not go anywhere everytime he didn't reply back to me. Or one who denied me time with my family because of comminication failure.

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 8:10:56 AM

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It's obvious that your slave loves her family and needs to spend time with them to be happy. It's obvious that you like to find reasons to punish your slave. Why not let your slave do her family things whenever she wants and each time she does you get to punish her? That way she gets to be happy with her family and you get to be happy by punishing her for being happy.

Just my thoughts......

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(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 8:17:03 AM

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FR....

I posted initially before reading responses and I have to say in terms of carving out time for family I don't necessarily family get all and any time that they want whenver they want it.

I have a close immediate family, including a mother that sometimes likes to pester whenever she wants to, so at my owners behest I have had to set some ground rules with her as well as make sure in general that the time that my owner and I spend together is for us, not for my family to constantly interrupt. It doesn't mean that I don't love my family and I don't spend time with them, it just means that there are some boundaries and they don't get me whenever they want me.

So I don't think there is anything wrong with an owner putting boundaries on the amount of family time and interactions. And I think an owner can value their slaves family but also not always want to be around them and even say no to family time without verging into asshole territory.

C~

P.S. - I do think that for the couple in question, their communication seems very flawed, and there are a whole tangle of issues on both their sides.

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 8:45:18 AM

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To me it just seems like the OP doesn't really care to hear about the communication problems, faulty phone companies and his own responsibilities to call her as well. (not that he shouldn't!) It just looks like he only cares about "punish or not to punish , that is the question " issue. A relationship is not about action and consequences only... it's about communication! Punishment is good for discipline but life is not scripted and things don't always go as you planned. (unless you live in a deserted island and even then, there is weather to affect you). the OP is so hung up on punishing that he doesn't see, or doesn't want to see other issues that he may have in that relationship.

Frankly, when things come to family... I don't know what got him so ticked off in this situations...

All best anyway,

'violet'

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 10:08:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

I find it funny that you speak as though punishing her would be a big step for us, into a relationship where Discipline is present and we may not be ready for such a thing. We talked it all out, really, people worry too much. The question at hand was the point, not whether the consensus is that I am capable of training Jodi.

I will be a little clearer…

You and Jodi have consistently demonstrated an inability to effectively communicate with each other through your various posts on this board. This is a problem for both of you. Until the communication issue is resolved, it will be impossible for Jodi to meet your expectations and you will continue to post issues like this one asking other people for advice and direction.

Therefore it is pointless to punish Jodi for your inability to address the communication problem and learn to effectively communicate with each other.

Knight's Kyra

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"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 10:13:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
I posted initially before reading responses and I have to say in terms of carving out time for family I don't necessarily family get all and any time that they want whenver they want it.

I have a close immediate family, including a mother that sometimes likes to pester whenever she wants to, so at my owners behest I have had to set some ground rules with her as well as make sure in general that the time that my owner and I spend together is for us, not for my family to constantly interrupt. It doesn't mean that I don't love my family and I don't spend time with them, it just means that there are some boundaries and they don't get me whenever they want me.

So I don't think there is anything wrong with an owner putting boundaries on the amount of family time and interactions. And I think an owner can value their slaves family but also not always want to be around them and even say no to family time without verging into asshole territory.

I completely agree with this. I had set boundaries for myself in regards to family even before I met my Lord. He has not seen a reason to change them, but if he did I would not consider it inappropriate or that he was being an asshole.

Healthy boundaries make for healthy relationships; it doesn't matter whether it is family, friends, work, etc.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 11:05:35 AM

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You seriously think she should have driven an hour to ask your permission and then driven an hour back to have dinner and then driven back an hour to get home? You need your head examined.

More importantly than any of this is the fact that you are attempting to separate her from her family, from her support system. That's one of the red flags for abusers. If you aren't attempting to isolate her and be abusive, then you need to rethink what your aim is.

You had no plans, yet she is supposed to never see family, never see friends, never go to a movie. And you think this makes you a person who is making her life better?

Like Julietsierra, family here comes first. Hopefully she'll find someone who feels the same way in her next relationship since your posts show you have basic incompatibilities.

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 3:56:39 PM

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I have recently arrived twice at rendezvous, by prior arrangement, only to find they'd decided I wasn't coming, even though I was on time, and gone elsewhere. Then when wasked what was going on said, 'Oh, but I texted you', (when I had not received any text), as if that was an excuse!

So in general, if you send a text you cannot assume it was received, unless it is confirmed by a reply-text or phone call - and so should continue with the initial plan.

Having said that, I would never begrudge any wife, slave or subbie leave to spend extra time with their family - unless of course I thought the family were 'taking the mickey'.

I don't punish apparently genuine mistakes, misunderstandings and errors; with the girls I play with, it only encourages them to make more!

I do punish definance, disrespect, being cheeky, or deliberately flouting rules, etc. and this hardly seems such an instance.

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:21:20 PM

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im pretty much on board with most of the replies......grandpaw is grandpaw......sometimes granparents just get to feeling spry and want to go somewhere, and i would definately take advantage of the time i could have with them.

it appears she is going to do this also......personally, i couldnt even think of being with someone who would choose to discipline me over this....but i would also keep trying to get in touch......

or you could make her write every response to this thread in box type print 5 times......let me know if you plan to do that so i can delete this reply

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:22:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

Im having issues with this OP because the dinner date in question is a grandfather....in my mind..and luckily the mind of my Sir....that kinda changes the entire situation. What exactly is the problem? That you are angry because the phone didnt work? That she went to dinner with her grandfather eventhough she was unable to ask you direct permission? Apperently she did send you a message telling you what was going on.....you honestly cant punish her for Ma Bells shortcomings. If she decided to go hang out at a bar instead of be where you told her to be at a certain time...Of course Id say punishment is due...but family..especially elder members of the family who wont always be around for those sorts of activities...really typically trump any other plans in my personal relationship. And this is coming from a sub who has had to run out in the middle of a scene or sex three times in the past year because flashy red lights showed up at some family members home in the middle of the night.

Hope the quote isn't too long, but Ghita brings excellent points (what else is new?). My own slave is exceedingly thoughtful and obedient, so I trust her very much. If I give her an instruction, and she fails to obey, there is always a damn good reason; and she doesn't take advantage of me having this attitude. If she did, I would correct her VERY firmly, as I'm sure she would wish for me to.

Sometimes I punish her when her infraction, if any, is minor, but that is also because it is part of our relationship: we both enjoy the administering of the punishment. I would hardly pass up on this excuse to punish her. After all, she did not show up when promised, and did not receive permission. I doubt that silence could be taken as a yes; if I were the asker in this situation and I didn't receive a reply, clearly my messages were not received, and if possible, she should have tried to contact her Master in another fashion. Would I actually be displeased with her? Not really, and she would know that. I wonder if part of the problem here is that your slave receiving punishment is accompanied by feelings of resentment on her part or anger on your part... just a thought.

Naturally, my experience and my relationship are certainly different from OP's. But I doubt we'd have any trouble communicating over this. She certainly would not have done great wrong by seeing her grandfather, but I would administer some correction over her not having made a better effort to communicate with me. Luckily for me, she is thoughtful and an excellent communicator.

~ Vltava

< Message edited by vltava -- 8/16/2007 4:25:41 PM >

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RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 4:45:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

My slave was told to be home at a certain time, with penalties in place for not arriving when she was due. Her grandpa wanted to take her out to dinner, and she asked me via texting my cell phone. The text messages never arrived, and when she was about six hours late I finally got a message from her saying what she was doing and asking permission which my silence was unable to give. I am trying to decide how to treat situations where my lack of an answer constitutes a yes, or that is how it is being treated, apparently. Six hours late also seems quite excessive. I'd like to know how others deal with or treat the issue of getting permission long distance, and what defines permission or lack of obedience. I did tell her that I don't consider an act of god tantamount to disobedience, and that's an exception. Is being unable to reach me viewable as an act of god? If I do punish her, do it tonight or explain that this isn't considered an act of god and punish if it happens in the future?
Looking forward to thought provoking posts,
Thanks

Greetings,

One word, ADAPT. You should have already in the back of your mind 3-4 adaptions of any situation in your life, that also involves your sub or slave. There are some things in life YOU can't change, but YOU can adapt for these changes. If it is friends or distant relatives, then your sub/slave should already know how to act by your communicating to her your beliefs in your life. If it is close family, then let us face reality and these adaptions would have to come into place. Not all people know of the BDSM arena and the female might be lost if you enclose her in a rigid frame of life. For me I do not care, because my private life does not crash into my family life.

Be well.

Frank Ar.

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Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 7:10:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

My slave was told to be home at a certain time, with penalties in place for not arriving when she was due. Her grandpa wanted to take her out to dinner, and she asked me via texting my cell phone. The text messages never arrived, and when she was about six hours late I finally got a message from her saying what she was doing and asking permission which my silence was unable to give. I am trying to decide how to treat situations where my lack of an answer constitutes a yes, or that is how it is being treated, apparently. Six hours late also seems quite excessive. I'd like to know how others deal with or treat the issue of getting permission long distance, and what defines permission or lack of obedience. I did tell her that I don't consider an act of god tantamount to disobedience, and that's an exception. Is being unable to reach me viewable as an act of god? If I do punish her, do it tonight or explain that this isn't considered an act of god and punish if it happens in the future?
Looking forward to thought provoking posts,
Thanks

*chuckles**** and the drama continues

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(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? - 8/16/2007 7:27:17 PM

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One thing- can I say I hope I'm not the only one who has not caught on to this "texting craze"? I am not a technophobe by any means, but I have to say that if cellphones lull people into a fog of good manners, texting seems to have thoroughly thrown them out the window with a few pounds of napalm added in for good measure.

I can understand them for an occasional quickie message- otherwise, isn't that what voice mails were invented for? It's really just something I do NOT get.

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