RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (Full Version)

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Padriag -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/16/2007 7:36:20 PM)

You aren't the only one Em.  I don't text and have had texting blocked on my phone (that's right folks, ya can't text me).  I have never seen the point of texting.  Anything someone can say texting I can say faster by simply calling.  In most cases by the time someone spells out a message on that lil key pad I can call, say what I wanted, throw in some pleasantries and have hung up.  If there's something I really need to write down, I email (on my laptop with a proper keyboard).   [8|]

I say punish the girl for texting... stop the madness! (that was not serious btw)



IrishMist -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/16/2007 8:18:32 PM)

I find it simply amazing and totally confusing akbarbarian that with the exception of your own personal relationship...you are normally a level-headed-coherent-intelligent person. I have seen you come up with some astounding advice and theories when discussing with others; yet, you become dim-witted-and ego ridden when confronted with your own relationship.

For the sake of all concerned...take a step back and listen to yourself. You sound like a petulant child who does not know how to tie his own fucking shoe and is blaming everyone else because of it.

Use some of that common sense that I have seen you display and apply it to your relationship.



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/16/2007 8:19:58 PM)

Once again,,IMO both are in the wrong..She texted and received no answer..gone for 6 hours ..she should of persisted more until you were reached...He on the other hand ,does seem to have this punish first issue going..try balance..most will allow once for mistake and most will attempt to make sure it is not repeated by as many said ,by setting up certain protocols.Each bump in the road will help you put into place a more workable streamlined relationship..it takes time,planning,and communication ...you are both simply at the crawling stage of your relationship....Tempting



angelic -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/16/2007 8:24:21 PM)

i have not read any replies and i am sure someone else may have said this.  Regardless, here goes:  You really have to get over your jealousy of her grandfather.  It's her grandfather for goodness sake... he apparently trumps you (as he should) and you should understand that and stop whining about it.  i do not mean to be rude, but good grief after the 4th of July fiasco, and the huge drama you created over that... ~shakes head~  get over yourself already. 



breatheasone -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/16/2007 8:56:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExquisiteFeline

Its Master's like these that makes me love my Master more and more.

Amen and amen.....



junecleaver -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/16/2007 9:05:20 PM)

Have you tried asking her what she thought?  How did she justify being six hours late?  I didn't read whatever you have written before about this grandpa-birthday situation.  Why not just help her develop better judgment and communication skills?  Punishment, especially a 'time out' where further communication with you is cut off, may not be the best bet.

I text my Dom all the time to ask for permission.  He works during the day.  I'm in school.  It's much easier for us to text back and forth rather than ducking out of the classroom/office to make a personal call.  It is also quicker to read a five word text message than deal with my voicemail inbox which is infinitely more complicated for some reason.  Depending on the situation, I treat silence as at least a 'not yet' or as a cue to e-mail/call. 

If I am forced to make a decision, I try to think about the consequences of my actions, how they'll affect him, and how he would feel about whatever it is I'm doing.  I LOVE sending him pictures and receiving pictures on our phones, especially when we can't be close to each other.  I love my txt/pic messages which is why I have the largest bundle they offered me. [:D]



twistedkytten -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/16/2007 9:07:20 PM)

for me... if Master cannot be reached,  then I am to use my best judgement.
In my short time within the folds of BDSM i have heard often and from many people.. that family comes first...
perhaps if she didn't ... attempting to reach her Dominant a few times over the course of the evening would be practical...



Owned1 -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/16/2007 10:53:57 PM)

LDR are difficult at best, is it in the best interest of the two of you to attempt micromanaging.  It is difficult enough when you live together.  I have specific rules and expectations however family do not fall into those.  My parents are first and foremost in my life and therefore are also in Master's life, as is his Mother.  The same applies to kids.  This would be different if she were going drinking at a bar with grandpa and in a sticky situation. 

Just some thoughts on what could be looked at in your relationship, take them as you may.

Owned



MaamJay -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 1:03:47 AM)

Fast reply intended for the OP:

Hey you, get off of that cloud! (Rolling Stones)

Well it was the first thing that sprang to mind! Be real here. I agree with others who point out that your communication "system" sucks and you need to get off the whole standardised punishment bandwagon. It's only going to bring a lot of unnecessary grief on both sides.

Firstly, sit down and talk and really LISTEN to her about her relationships with her family. Decide together where the boundaries and parameters should be. Maybe Gramps is very old and having dinner might have been really important. Maybe he's always pestering her to spend time with him and she feels obligated. None of us can judge that, only she can and she should communicate that with you. Establish some clear defaults. It should be crystal clear in her mind what the result of those negotiations are ... have her write them out in her own words after the event.

Secondly, work out clearly how the communications system should work. Set a series of steps ... text and you must get a reply from me, voice mobile call, landline call etc. Unlike some here, I do understand that at times you can text but not voice call ... where Master and I live that is exactly the case ... a text msg will usually limp in but a voice call lasts about 5 seconds (long enough to say hello!) before the connection dies. So We rely heavily on the landline and tell others to try that first and only try mobile if they get the landline answering machine as that means We're probably in town and the mobs will work! Work out what will best cover you. And make it work both ways ... if you are away, and she might be concerned about your safety (maybe you're flying or driving long distances), agree to call when you arrive so she's not worried. I think that's one aspect of D/s which should be a 2-way street.

Thirdly, be more creative about the whole punishment thing. I'm a great believer that self-discipline is the best discipline. If the worst she's going to get is a max of 30 mins corner time for being about 5 hours late ... well hey, I'd be late if I really wanted to do whatever it was I was getting late doing! Where's the incentive to be self-disciplined? Now, that doesn't mean I am advocating harsher punishment, far from it. I regard punishment as a last resort and an indication that somewhere, I have fallen down on My job as a Domme. Either I haven't made My expectations clear enough ... OR I have a bratty sub who wants to be disobedient and displeasing ... and I haven't dealt with that off the bat. Either way ... it's more work for Me. If you absolutely must punish, make it fit the crime and make it sufficient to deter repetition of the crime ... and take a long hard look at yourself too!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



Focus50 -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 3:15:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

One thing- can I say I hope I'm not the only one who has not caught on to this "texting craze"?  I am not a technophobe by any means, but I have to say that if cellphones lull people into a fog of good manners, texting seems to have thoroughly thrown them out the window with a few pounds of napalm added in for good measure. 

I can understand them for an occasional quickie message- otherwise, isn't that what voice mails were invented for?  It's really just something I do NOT get.

Lol, tell me about it!  I tried texting my girl once and after about 3 rallies, I was ready to hurl the horrible thing but settled instead for simply calling her - big hands and puny buttons; arrggghhhh!!!!!  And can you believe that the newer the phone is, seems the smaller it is - like that's sposta be a good thing, esp for men with man size hands!
 
Current personal rule (and limit) is that cell phones are for *talking* into.
 
Focus.



came4U -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 7:29:01 AM)

mm Focus at big hands ..don't make me go loopy here , le pant. lol

ooook, so an hour-ish away from this gal..was there no payphones at this restraunt?

text messages show if something was sent in outbox as SENT, whether it arrived or not.  In some instances, it comes back as 'unable to recieve'.

I have heard this nonsense from young friends with young bf's and when they checked bf's phone, no such message was in sent box. 

Honestly, I don't know if all this is a communication problem or not, seems more like just a problem.

(ps. someone get Focus a huge 80's cellphone or one with large buttons for the visually/big hand impared).



LaTigresse -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 7:36:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

One thing- can I say I hope I'm not the only one who has not caught on to this "texting craze"?  I am not a technophobe by any means, but I have to say that if cellphones lull people into a fog of good manners, texting seems to have thoroughly thrown them out the window with a few pounds of napalm added in for good measure. 

I can understand them for an occasional quickie message- otherwise, isn't that what voice mails were invented for?  It's really just something I do NOT get.


You are not alone....



ProlificNeeds -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 7:55:09 AM)

Be clear on what you want and expect of her. If any rules or guidelines set down before hand were not expressly applicable to this situation, then just let it go. For whatever reason no answer was given, what do smart people do when no one gives them an easy answer? Figure it out for themselves. Common sense says "If nothing else is planned, why not go out?" Especially if it's with family.

If you have to question on whether or not to punish her for it, then obviously you know it's not a simple issue of black and white, you have your own doubts. I like the suggestion of defaults, but again you have to be clear and concise about such a system! Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Expressing yourself clearly and articulately to her is the key to helping her understand what you expect.



UR2Badored -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 8:01:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

One thing- can I say I hope I'm not the only one who has not caught on to this "texting craze"?  I am not a technophobe by any means, but I have to say that if cellphones lull people into a fog of good manners, texting seems to have thoroughly thrown them out the window with a few pounds of napalm added in for good measure. 

I can understand them for an occasional quickie message- otherwise, isn't that what voice mails were invented for?  It's really just something I do NOT get.


I agree too.  There will be whole generation of people not understanding that the person standing in front of them is as important as whoever is on the phone.
oh, please please start a thread



UR2Badored -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 8:08:24 AM)

To the OP:  I agree with others in regards to family. Tread carefully with grandparents in regards to punishments or limitations as we have such limited time with them if we are lucky to even have them to visit at all.



AAkasha -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 8:43:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

i have not read any replies and i am sure someone else may have said this.  Regardless, here goes:  You really have to get over your jealousy of her grandfather.  It's her grandfather for goodness sake... he apparently trumps you (as he should) and you should understand that and stop whining about it.  i do not mean to be rude, but good grief after the 4th of July fiasco, and the huge drama you created over that... ~shakes head~  get over yourself already. 


When her grandfather passes away this dominant is in for a world of resentment for all the crap he put in the way of her having a functional relationship with him.  He has no idea the role family plays.

Akasha



eastcoastgal -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 8:50:47 AM)

I think the issue here isn't about punishment.  While the BDSM lifestyle may be somewhat different from a more vanilla lifestyle, there are some things that all should hold sacred.  I do agree that if you set consequences in place for tardiness, consequences should usually follow.  But I think in all cases, exceptions must be made.  Family is sacred.  If you are old enough to have this kind of relationship, that means her grandfather must be fairly old, and she should not be prohibited from spending time with him.  Obedience and loyalty are important, but loyalty and RESPECT for family I think trumps any gray area here.  She did not receive a "no" and blatantly disobey.  Talk to her, don't punish her.  If the phone service is a problem, take that into account!  You both must know reception is shoddy, so make rules like "if you cannot get in touch with me, use your best judgement".  She should know what you would agree or disagree to, and trusting her is just as important as her trusting you. 

Just one woman's opinion....



sublizzie -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 10:38:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

When her grandfather passes away this dominant is in for a world of resentment for all the crap he put in the way of her having a functional relationship with him.  He has no idea the role family plays.

Akasha



How someone treats their family members is a clue into how they will treat you. When I was younger I watched how boys treated their mothers and grandmothers to see if he would treat me well. Now, at my age, I watch how he treats sisters and his UMs (adult or not) to see how he will treat me.

If she is treating her family well and with respect then she will probably treat her master and his family well and with respect. The only thing I see as a problem here is that she didn't use another form of communication to get in touch with the OP. Given so many people's reliance on only one method to communicate, it's not surprising that she didn't think of anything else to use.

OP, if you want to punish her, make up an excuse and punish her. That's part of being a Master. But to punish someone for doing the logical thing at the time is not logical on your part. Flexibility is important.

Just my thoughts.........



celticlord2112 -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/17/2007 11:17:21 AM)

For all the reasons you just articulated, I personally think the issue is exactly about punishment--specifically, what role should punishment play in this situation (if any)?

Punishment is applied when one wishes a certain behavior to occur less frequently or not at all.  In this situation, is there a specific behavior the OP truly wishes to reduce or even eliminate?

In the absence of a specific response from the OP, his sub had no alternative but independent decision making.  The overwhelming consensus in this thread is that the values she applied to that decision process were more or less good--that family and family commitments are and should be held sacred.  Unless the OP expresses and enforces a different value set, her decisions were not unreasonable absent clear directive to the contrary.

Now, if OP and his sub have radically divergent values, they have a larger issue than one of perceived disobedience, one that should be ressolved post-haste.  That resolution requires dialog and discussion, however, not punishment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eastcoastgal

I think the issue here isn't about punishment.  While the BDSM lifestyle may be somewhat different from a more vanilla lifestyle, there are some things that all should hold sacred.  I do agree that if you set consequences in place for tardiness, consequences should usually follow.  But I think in all cases, exceptions must be made.  Family is sacred.  If you are old enough to have this kind of relationship, that means her grandfather must be fairly old, and she should not be prohibited from spending time with him.  Obedience and loyalty are important, but loyalty and RESPECT for family I think trumps any gray area here.  She did not receive a "no" and blatantly disobey.  Talk to her, don't punish her.  If the phone service is a problem, take that into account!  You both must know reception is shoddy, so make rules like "if you cannot get in touch with me, use your best judgement".  She should know what you would agree or disagree to, and trusting her is just as important as her trusting you. 

Just one woman's opinion....



CreativeDominant -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/18/2007 7:29:04 AM)

I have several things here...

First, I don't do cell phones at all.  Don't own one...not sure I ever will.  I use my brother's occasionally if I go out of town but,  call me old-fashioned, I don't want a continuous lifeline to the world and those in my world.  So you can imagine what I think of text messaging.

All that said, I agree with the idea that she should have continued to try calling.  However, what concerns me the most is the seemingly large disparity in the way he views family as compared to her views on family.  I think that most of us can see that family holds a big place in most people's lives...whether a good place or a bad place.  It is clear from the 4th of July issue and now this that this girl's grandfather means a great deal to her.  The fact that the OP cannot understand that seems to be a great hindrance to the relationship.  And trying to impose D/s values on everything in a person's life just is not going to work well without clear boundary lines and clear, understood communicated thoughts about family and other values not easily covered by the rules of a D/s dynamic.

I agree that he is setting himself up...if the D/s relationship even lasts...for massive amounts of resentment someday.



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