RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (Full Version)

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arayofsunshine55 -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/18/2007 7:39:23 AM)

Her grandpa!!  You live in the bay area.  Get better service.   Get better phones.   But reading your blog I don't think either will really help what ails the two of you.  You seem to have a flairup at least once a month.   You both need to figure that out.



dawntreader -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/18/2007 7:57:02 AM)

Judging from this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_1130963/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

Not much has changed in your relationship[sm=ugh.gif]



Redoubt -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/18/2007 8:34:52 AM)

Most of the posts sum up my thoughts on the situation in one way or another.

If she knew you were expecting her. Taking no response as "yes" indicates poor judgement on her part, however - as her dominant partner, not setting your expectations correctly was your error. I think we'd all agree that submissives with a streak of brat in them will always attempt to find any loophole and exploit it.

For me, it's a courtesy thing. If she can't reach you by text and needs an answer. Phone. If she can't reach you, leave a voicemail with a way to contact her back, if the phone network is down (can you hear me now?) email a message. If none of those options are immediately available, please try again later.

In this situation, it would depend on the family member. If she sees her grandpa frequently (i.e. weekly), and she has plans with me (i.e. has been told flat out she is expected home by a certain time), I would expect her to raincheck with her family if unable to reach me and return home. If she sees her family member infrequently, then two or three attempts to reach me to inform me what was going on would probably satisfy me that she had taken into consideration her prior instructions.

A 24/7 Master/slave relationship can never survive the curve balls of life if the slave does not have at least some reasoning on what is courteous, respectful and the "Right thing to do", however it is the masters role to ensure that this understanding is in place before letting her leave the house alone. If a situation comes up that seems ambiguous to the slave, then the slave cannot be held responsible for making a judgement that doesn't meet with your satisfaction.
You sit him/her down, and you explain your thoughts and your expectations. You try to help them learn what you would have them do if you weren't there. You then check for understanding, ask for and answer questions... then hug her/him and let them know you understand they didn't mean to disappoint you.


But to answer the original question, when a sub asks a dom/me for permission and gets silence in reply, they should not interpret the silence as yes. (and occasionally they should sometimes interpret it as "o crap, am i going to get paddled for asking?" [8D] )



SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/18/2007 12:43:50 PM)

There has been an ongoing problem of communication between the two of you. After the 4th of July fiasco it would have been assumed that the two of you sat down and discussed some set of rules and communicated regarding expectations. There's the problem with assumations. Yes, I read the first line of your post but were there specifics in place when it comes to family and her interactions with them?

Call me silly but I prefer a sub that is capable of logical thought and reason. Many, many moons ago there weren't cell phones or emails (yes I realize I'm dating myself here) and communications were made face to face or via land lines. If the phone was busy or I wasn't home when it came to a decision then that ability to think for themselves was an attribute that came in useful.

What I've always drilled into a submissive's head is that in the end he should ask himself what consequences will his actions provoke? 
Will his actions circumscribe within the rules I've laid down for the relationship? Will I be pleased or disappointed by his actions when I'm told of them after the fact? Obviously the goal should be that his actions are pleasing rather than disappointing. It comes down to a little thing called WWMJD?

Answering those questions should be relatively simple because I've communicated with him and made very clear my expectations regarding behavior. There have been very specific rules discussed and negotiated throughout the relationship from the very beginning. So he would already know pretty well whether or not those actions will please me and the exact circumstances they will provoke. But that's just Me and how I prefer to do things, I'm funny that way.

There is an obvious lack of communication involved between you two. At some point you have to sit down and talk about your expectations regarding family. This should be a no brainer because family should come first. While 6 hours may seem excessive there could be extenuating circumstances involved regarding how long it's been since she's seen him etc... It is evident from your previous posts that they are close and he was a parental figure to her for awhile. It seems that a good deal of your issues seem to revolve around her contact with family and him in particular. Perhaps there is a problem in your regard that she still looks up to him as an authority figure and she puts him before you in a level of importance. In other words...are you having jealousy issues when it comes to grandpa?

I've ramble on and on without answering the question at hand regarding punishment. Should you punish her in this situation? I would say no. Why? Simple. Because you have failed as the Dominant to communicate your expectations and rules in the situation. How does one punish someone for breaking a rule that they don't even know exists? Doing so is neither logical nor reasonable. JMO.

It's been pointed out repeatedly that there are communication issues at fault here however this doesn't seem to have gotten through in the least. Really, until you work on that, nothing any of us say is going to help. So I'm just going to sit back with some nice cheese, a glass of merlot, and check in next month for the next episode in the soap opera.

edited to add:
As for whether silence = yes...well that's completely perceptional to the specific situation and what you've communicated within the relationship regarding your expectations.



AquaticSub -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/19/2007 2:58:43 PM)

quote:

Is being unable to reach me viewable as an act of god?

I can't reach Valyraen, I'm to act as I think best - his order. If a family member wanted to take me out to dinner and I couldn't reach him, I would just go. If it was a friend who I saw on a regular basis, I wouldn't go. If it was a friend who had just been dumped by her boyfriend of two years or I didn't get to see often, I would go. If he had an issue with what I did, he wouldn't punish me. There would be no need as I would have acted under his order - to do what I thought was best considering I couldn't reach him.

If he objected to what I did, we would discuss it calmly as adults and this information would guide later decisions. Only repeats earn punishments.



ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/19/2007 6:15:32 PM)

arrrr....to the OP
this is the second or third similar post that you have submitted on this topic. Ie to controlling your slave.

Maybe you should reconsider your angle... ie have you ever looked at the fact that per your posts you are micromanaging. That you are trying to control ever little thing she does.. (especially when it concerns her family)... and I hate to break it to you but when you do that to another person, they are going to fail. They can't always be perfect no matter how much they try.

So it sounds to me, that you are putting too many rules in place, and forgetting about the fact that she does have family that exists outside of you and that she is human...



Sinimint -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/20/2007 7:06:49 PM)

Re original post .........

Micromanagement - urghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh shuddersssssssssssssssssss.  OMG I feel lucky..............[8|]

She did the right thing, family is just as important as you seem to think you are, if not more.  Was poor Grandpa going to just sit there while she waited for a reply.  What the hell is wrong with a litle dinner with gramps???  Does she ask to go wee wee too?????

Hey, cut out the micromanagement of the poor girl - she'll hate it soon and be gone quick smart !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



AquaticSub -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/20/2007 7:25:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Grandparents ARE an act of God.


Yeah... they really are.



celticlord2112 -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/20/2007 7:31:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

If he objected to what I did, we would discuss it calmly as adults and this information would guide later decisions. Only repeats earn punishments.


That sounds too much like (dare I say it?) common sense! 



AquaticSub -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/20/2007 7:38:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

If he objected to what I did, we would discuss it calmly as adults and this information would guide later decisions. Only repeats earn punishments.


That sounds too much like (dare I say it?) common sense! 



Well, you know... every now and then we like to get crazy and inject some logic into our lives.[:D]



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/21/2007 8:51:27 AM)

In my home, my silence does not equal consent. My girls know this and will refrain from doing something if they can not get ahold of me to obtain consent. In your place, I would punish because she did not use every means at her disposal to call and gain permission. You made plans, she was told the plans and was expected to adhere to plans. Her excuse of not having cell coverage is just that, an excuse. Permit it now, and you open the door for more problems later.



AquaticSub -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/21/2007 8:59:20 AM)

They didn't have plans this time.

But just out of curiousity - what if she had? What if a submissive uses every means at her disposal, ranging from land lines to e-mail and the owner simply can not be contacted?

Perhaps this boils down to a simple difference in ownership: Those who want their property to use their best judgement and those who want them to always default to "no". For the latter, it does seem wise for AK to put more guidelines in place so that she doesn't return home to find out that he wasn't answering because he was taking a nap and he would have been perfectly happy for her to go.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/21/2007 9:02:23 AM)

I'm ok with a relationship that has a "This is what we decided, you NEED explicit permission to deviate from this plan, if you do not get it, you must stay to the plan."

My relationship has that with some things- I don't like changes in plans in general and it makes me cranky.  But we've learned that life doesn't always go to plan and it can work out best to have a more relaxed system.  And we've been together a few years now so we KNOW what triggers the other person and what we can be flexible with.

It's all a matter of management style.



AquaticSub -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/21/2007 9:06:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm ok with a relationship that has a "This is what we decided, you NEED explicit permission to deviate from this plan, if you do not get it, you must stay to the plan."


I could never make it in a relationship like that. My life is just too hectic to decide exactly how the day is going to go and getting express permission to change it when something comes up. He'd get annoyed at all the phone calls. [:D]

I definately understand how other people would like it though and I agree... it's different management styles and they work for different people.



HalloweenWhite -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/21/2007 3:43:33 PM)

I dont agree that she disobeyed you-she didn't know she didn't have your consent. And as for six hours late, again she didn't know that was unacceptable.

Anticipation is the key in these situations.



theq -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/21/2007 5:04:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
First, it seems the act of texting is an acceptable medium for gaining permission in your relationship. An obvious flaw has revealed itself - sending a msg does not bring acknowledgement that a msg was received. But she did send, right? Therefore, she did what I presume you expected but was let down by technology. Indeed, you both were.... So fix that for starters; from now on no texts on important matters - make a personal call where you're both in no doubt you're communicating.


Also to add to this. If you both desire a level of control down to that detail...if she calls you....you best darn answer. I'd expect you to have a pretty good reason if you didn't. If you aren't willing to give her the attention needed to do this level of management of her then perhaps you both would need to reconsider the level of management/control.

Q



theq -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/21/2007 5:09:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian
Having a default policy makes sense. This is the first time we had encountered a situation where it was needed.


If the occurrence is rare....and there was a solid reason behind it....is it truly THAT bothersome?

If you do find the perfect world where technology works all the time, please tell me about it! I'd get a HUGE raise from my employer! With all the crap we have falling out of the sky where I work...it'd be like the second coming! [:)]



theq -> RE: How to define permission, does silence mean yes? (8/21/2007 5:15:37 PM)

After reading through first page or two of this thread I'll make one last post and call it good. This looks to be a case of lack of clarity of communication between you and her...chalk it up to growing together and learning together. Don't punish her for a mutual learning experience. Take time to fall on your own sword too for not being clear. Most importantly, look at her heart...her intentions...often what's in the heart is most important....and most pleasing.

Best wishes for a happy future!

Q



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