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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/24/2007 4:21:41 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		There was nothing false nor malicious in anything I said.  Critique is not slander, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

You made a categorical statement that ADHD was essentially a cop-out, a way to cover up bad parenting.  Specifically, you said:

quote:


ADHD: Wouldnt this be better described as...
My parents have got very little idea how to bring up children and no idea at all of the need for firm fair consistant discipline.  I live on chips (frenchfries) sweet drinks and hamburgers. which I enjoy OK?
When my behaviour becomes wild uncontrolled and  irrational gullible self serving highly paid professionals then say I've got ADHD.


Filtering out the unoriginal attempt at sarcasm, we are left with a statement that ADHD is in fact a medical euphimism for an undisciplined and poorly raised child.  Your statement is categorical--it necessarily covers ALL instances of diagnosed ADHD, and dismisses the possibility of people with undiagnosed ADHD.

Do doctors make mistakes?  Most assuredly.  Malpractice insurance exists because doctors are as fallible as the rest of us.  Are their motives always pristine and pure?   Probably not.  However, your position is  that ALL doctors are inept and monetarily motivated; it is categorical and allows for no deviation.

Your sole evidentiary support for both of these positions is an unnamed television program, which you then argue MUST be reliable because if it weren't the public (i.e., YOU) would have complained about inaccuracies and the producers appropriately censured. 

If you absolutely insist, I can google "ADHD research" as easily as can you, and provide innumerable links to documented and peer-reviewed research into the condition.

Your positions are also conflicting and contradictory.  If you wish to argue against the integrity of the medical profession, then you must also question the motives of any medical professional asserting that ADHD is a fiction; if your vaunted documentary contained NO medical professionals, then we must necessarily question the credentials of its commentators to critique several decades of medical research on ADHD and related conditions.

Your position is exactly as I stated it was:  A dismissal of ADHD as being someone's pharmaceutical fiction; as such, it is ignorant, bigoted, and patently offensive.

Perhaps you are curious as to why I have such a strong reaction to your comments.  The reason is simple:  I myself have ADHD.  I frankly do not appreciate being told by a complete stranger that my condition is nothing more than too many cokes.  Your statement is a gratuitous insult, not just to me, but to any parent who contends with an ADHD child.


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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/24/2007 7:37:14 PM   
nyrisa


Posts: 1830
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline 		Great post, Celticlord. Much better phrased than I could have managed.

< Message edited by nyrisa -- 8/24/2007 7:38:48 PM >

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/24/2007 7:58:09 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Thank you nyrisa...you are too kind.

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 1:23:55 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Celticlord:
Well we certainly are not going to agree on this one then.
I never said that all doctors are scoundrels but I believe many will jump on a bandwagon and have done so with regard to ADHD.The mental health field is full of examples of erroneous diagnoses based on the prevailing social mores of the time. Attitudes to certain forms of sexual behaviour are a perfect example. The sin that dare not speak its name ...and all that!

You accuse me of circular reasoning yet you use exactly that method by claiming I, ie you, have been diagnosed with ADHD therefore it must exist. I am well aware that the diagnosis exists, I question the truth of it.

You accuse me of forming an opinion based on one TV programme. This is not so. I have listened to radio discussions and watched serious documentary programmes on the subject where critiques of what ADHD really "is" have been aired. I have also heard discussion programmes where an uncritical approach to ADHD as currently described was presented supported with some completely "unknowable" interpretations of brain scans.
I have also seen those popular shows where a sensible female enters into a dysfunctional home and makes some basic suggestions as to how the unruly children can be "turned around " and returns later to find a much calmer sedate family atmosphere Do you believe that the parents are lying when they admit that their methods were wrong and now they have changed vast improvements have taken place ? Possible I suppose but not likely.

Is not demanding that only "in the know" medical professionals should comment on ADHD exactly the same appeal to authority that you told me was so wrong a few posts ago ?

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 2:00:41 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

You accuse me of circular reasoning yet you use exactly that method by claiming I, ie you, have been diagnosed with ADHD therefore it must exist. I am well aware that the diagnosis exists, I question the truth of it.


There is nothing circular in my reasoning.  ADHD is very real to me not because some doctor said I have ADHD, but because I deal with daily.  The diagnosis was merely a confirmation of what I already knew.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
You accuse me of forming an opinion based on one TV programme. This is not so. I have listened to radio discussions and watched serious documentary programmes on the subject where critiques of what ADHD really "is" have been aired. I have also heard discussion programmes where an uncritical approach to ADHD as currently described was presented supported with some completely "unknowable" interpretations of brain scans.

Actually, you were the one who said "TV Programme".  I merely accepted your use of the singular noun at face value.  However, absent names and some validation of the caliber of discourse, radio and TV shows are ludicrous citations to support an argument.  Do as I suggested and google "ADHD research", then do your homework.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Is not demanding that only "in the know" medical professionals should comment on ADHD exactly the same appeal to authority that you told me was so wrong a few posts ago ?
I made no such demand.  I said and say again that if the TV "shows" you nebulously cite as authority had no medical professionals providing commentary, one necessarily had to scrutinize the credentials of the commentators that were on these shows to determine their competence to render an opinion on the subject. 

This time you are engaging in the logical fallacy of the straw man.


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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 2:25:45 AM   
servantheart


Posts: 960
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I am well aware that the diagnosis exists, I question the truth of it.

Until You (or someone You love) struggles on a daily basis with the effects of a pervasive condition such as ADHD, autism or related disorder, until You see all the ways in which it impacts Your life, until You watch Your child slowly learn to hate school and themselves despite Yours and Your child's teacher's best efforts, You can question it all You want.  People also questioned Louis Pasteur's Germ Theory of Disease b/c they couldn't see the microbes responsible for the outbreaks of disease in his day.  Until such time that medical science can devise a test that allows us to "see" ADHD in the body, I would ask that You refrain from insulting those of us who know all too well that it does exist.  If anything, most parents of a LD child are above average parents, and as this thread has shown, willing to leave no stone unturned in the search for answers and resources for their child.   

You accuse me of forming an opinion based on one TV programme. This is not so. I have listened to radio discussions and watched serious documentary programmes on the subject where critiques of what ADHD really "is" have been aired. I have also heard discussion programmes where an uncritical approach to ADHD as currently described was presented supported with some completely "unknowable" interpretations of brain scans.
I have also seen those popular shows where a sensible female enters into a dysfunctional home and makes some basic suggestions as to how the unruly children can be "turned around " and returns later to find a much calmer sedate family atmosphere Do you believe that the parents are lying when they admit that their methods were wrong and now they have changed vast improvements have taken place ?

I agree that ADHD can be overdiagnosed and that some kids who appear to have it do not actually have it.  That doesn't make it any less a reality for those who truly do have it. 
 


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(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 3:04:43 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.understandingadhd.com/?spg=PPC&sky=hgy|goo|understandingadhd|adhd|adhd+general+words

I have been asked to Google ADHD so I did just that and picked at random the above site and clicked on detecting ADHD in children
A serious video "documentary" of the type I have described, but which would be rubbished by Celticlord if it didnt support his beliefs "came up"

Note that in the middle of the video one of the clinicians has to assume that ADHD has been present in the children but it only becomes manifest AFTER the parents have exerted a phsychological impact. Convenient or what !

Note also, and most important,  that at least one clinician points out that different methods of top down family behaviour patterns need to be taught. ie the parents need to alter their method of child rearing.
Isn't that what I have been saying ?

Adding:
Listen carefully to what the female clinician says, she comes as close as it is possible to be to admitting that the condition is "learned"  as a consequence of inappropriate family dynamics. NO?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/25/2007 3:25:05 AM >

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 3:22:33 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.psychminded.co.uk/news/news2004/august04/Clinical%20psychology%20publishes%20critique%20of%20ADHD%20diagnosis%20and%20use%20of%20medication%20on%20children.htm

this is getting worse...from the point of view of  Celticlord Nyrisa and Servantheart anyway lol

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 5:48:41 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Note also, and most important, that at least one clinician points out that different methods of top down family behaviour patterns need to be taught. ie the parents need to alter their method of child rearing.
Isn't that what I have been saying ?


What a wonderful piece of revisionism you have here!

No, sir, that is NOT what you have been saying.  You have been saying that ADHD does not exist.  You have been saying that ADHD is a convenient  excuse to cover bad parenting--and your original noxious verbage left little doubt that you considered it BAD parenting.   You have been saying that ADHD is a trumped up diagnosis by mercenary doctors to extort money from lazy, inattentive parents.

This site acknowledges the reality of ADHD, and provides some resources towards understanding and dealing with childhood ADHD.  The role of parenting skills in managing an ADHD child has never been questioned. 

What you refuse to acknowledge is that an ADHD child poses special parenting challenges that require significant alteration to how the child is raised.  Raising an ADHD child ultimately becomes a study in micromanagement, something that is counterproductive for the non-ADHD child.  THAT, sir, is the message of this site.

From that same site:
http://www.understandingadhd.com/focus_article.asp?f=adhd_comprehend&c=adhd_goodparenting&spg=CSAI
quote:


"Raising a child with ADHD is exponentially more difficult." says Dr. Arthur Robin, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral neurosciences at the Wayne State University School of Medicine in Michigan.


quote:


Drugs like Ritalin, Adderall and Concerta are low-dose versions of powerful amphetamines. This sets off alarm bells with parents, but Robin says that they are currently the most effective option for controlling problem behavior. "It’s the only thing that can directly change the way the mind is functioning." he says.


quote:


Indeed, the stress and effort of raising a child with ADHD is enough to make parents need their own form of help. During her spare time, if it could be called that, Salazar runs an online discussion group for ADHD families who share their concerns and advice. Hospitals and medical organizations also hold local support groups for those who want to talk face-to-face.


If it is your desire, after having done a minimal amount of the homework I told you to do,  to acknowledge the challenges of ADHD children (which includes, btw, acknowledging that ADHD is real), I am glad.  Such a revelation on your part, however, would sound more credible if you began with an apology to parents of autistic and ADHD children for having viciously slandered them in the first place.




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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 6:01:51 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

http://www.psychminded.co.uk/news/news2004/august04/Clinical%20psychology%20publishes%20critique%20of%20ADHD%20diagnosis%20and%20use%20of%20medication%20on%20children.htm

this is getting worse...from the point of view of  Celticlord Nyrisa and Servantheart anyway lol


I've read this article before, actually.  However, you are making far too much of far too little.  The neuropathology of ADHD is not fully known--that has never been doubted, certainly not here, anyway.  The viability of long-term use of stimulant medications IS controversial, and a regimen that is fraught with side-effects and other health risks. 

Moreover, there is no real debate that ADHD has been overdiagnosed, and medications such as Ritalin vastly overprescribed.  That DID happen, and to an extent DOES happen.

However, none of this addresses the sweeping judgementalism of ALL parents with ADHD children contained in your original comment.  There are bad parents.  There are abusive parents.  There are neglectful parents.  Sadly, this is ugly reality of ife.  But not every parent whose child grapples with ADHD is bad, abusive, or neglectful, and it is highly inappropriate for you to imply such a thing--and do not deny that your original post was exactly that: a dismissal of ADHD as the byproduct of bad, abusive, and neglectful parenting.

If you wish to retreat from that noxious and insulting position, I would be happy to (in another thread) debate ADHD treatment and parenting skills at length with you.


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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 7:55:13 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Celticlord: I think you are not grasping what I am saying. You definitely misinterpret what I have said.

If you claim to suffer from a distressing mental condition then who am I to argue with that?
You may call that condition what you please but it helps for good communication if a generally accepted term is used.
ADHD is a generally accepted term.
Its meaning and especially causes are most definitely NOT generally accepted.

I stand by every word I have said. I have posted a pro ADHD web site and offered criticism of some of the content.
I have posted an anti ADHD web site which would not exist if your position were correct.
Leastways not from a reputable source..

It seems to me that you are allowing your personal situation to cloud your judgement.

To the OP I apologise for taking your thread down this alleyway but I did not introduce ADHD into it, I only responded to those that did.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/25/2007 7:59:23 AM >

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 8:15:10 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

You have been saying that ADHD does not exist.


If we take it in the best possible light, it came across more like saying that there are bogus cases of claimed ADHD. Is anyone seriously prepared to back up  the counterclaim, that there are no bogus cases?

quote:

  You have been saying that ADHD is a convenient  excuse to cover bad parenting--and your original noxious verbage left little doubt that you considered it BAD parenting. 


And what else should we call someone who dumps the label on kids who don't really have ADHD, in order to medicate them into easier handling? Again, is anyone prepared to prove that this line of criticism is untrue in every single case?


quote:

You have been saying that ADHD is a trumped up diagnosis by mercenary doctors to extort money from lazy, inattentive parents.


Or he is saying that there are cases of ADHD which are in fact, just that. Once more, rebuttal proof?

Plus, I specifically asked that we not derail the OPs thread into a debate about the overdiagnosis of ADHD. 

Was somebody not paying attention?

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 9:35:31 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Special needs programs for autism and attorneys aren't always all they're cracked up to be. I have a severely autistic son who, at age 6, is still unable to speak. One day in his class (specifically for autistic children), he was having fun kicking his legs and one of his shoes accidentally came off, sailed through the air, and struck another student in the head. The teacher's solution was to duct tape his shoes to him and wrap the tape a good way up his legs. I have no idea how long this had been going on before they were caught. One day, the teacher forgot to take the tape off my son before he left on the school bus. When his father met the school bus, he caught the driver in the process of removing the tape. The police were called and a local news crew showed up at the door. We wanted to sue, but even with all the publicity, no attorney would take the case.

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 9:47:15 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		You are entitled to your opinion of me.  I most assuredly have one of you.

To the OP:

Seekfemslave's attitude demonstrates why so many schools fail so miserably to address the requirements of special needs children.  Too many people just don't want to believe these needs are real, or that not every child falls into neat categories of personality, behavior, or approach to learning.  And, as is the case with so many injustices in this world, the children pay the price for their insistent ingnorance.



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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 9:55:08 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		I'm surprised no attorney would take the case.  Especially with all the negative publicity, which I would think would make the school district quick to settle.


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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 10:12:33 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
To the OP:
Seekfemslave's attitude demonstrates why so many schools fail so miserably to address the requirements of special needs children.  Too many people just don't want to believe these needs are real, or that not every child falls into neat categories of personality, behavior, or approach to learning..

An absolutely ridiculous point to make and one that proves what I have already said...you do not understand what I am saying.
I can recognise a pre teen in distress just as well as the next man. Where I differ with you ,when that distress is categorised as ADHD, is in what is the cause of that distress.

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 10:18:44 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I can recognise a pre teen in distress just as well as the next man.


Perversely enough, I believe you.  WRT to the OPs initial question, that's exactly the problem.  "Just as well" just isn't all that much.



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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 10:19:08 AM   
MissyRane


Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		I didn't read each and every single post but anyway:
Everybody should have the right to get equal education whether they're sick or poor. If we lived in a perfect world everybody would be happy and every school could take kid with whatever problems. But we don't live in a perfect world. I don't live in the US but I've been working within the educational system of my country for a few years but been on the inside of it for longer. There are tight budgets, and I believe a part of the problem is that many people expect the schools to raise their kids up from A to Z period, and if it fails then they can blame the school system. That puts a lot of pressure on the teachers and the school authorities, yet if they dare scolding the kids the parents go crazy omg are you beating my child are you telling it what to do yariyariyari. This kind of shit actually costs the schools a lot of staff, a lot of patience lawsuits and so on. There are more healthy kids in the system than unhealthy, therefore its better its more profitable to have a numerous of schools that can take in the "special" kids and give them the treatment they need. They have more of specialized staff so it becomes more supportive "community"
If every single school would be able to take on the special kids it would mean there would have to be a lot more of specialized staff in every school it would need more financial resources and so on.
Of course it's bad that not everybody can have equal education it's bad that not everybody can afford college or university it's bad that some people can't afford going to school at all but I think it's extremely harsh that if something is not going as said on paper then the system sucks the system is failing yariyari. YOU chose the government you chose to support it (whichever side you're on) they are trying to do the best they can and if you aren't happy with it then why don't you go and do something about it yourself. Most of the people are trying their best to make this world work. They are trying to do what they believe is best in every situation but guess what they're human and human are not perfect.
Sure some rules are outdated and some law are rediculous but it's much more than snapping a finger to renew and fix the rules this's the world we live in some things go up some things go down eventually things that go down will go up and vice versa. But you can't blame everything that goes wrong entirely on the system.

< Message edited by MissyRane -- 8/25/2007 10:21:37 AM >

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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 10:34:23 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissyRane
]Most of the people are trying their best to make this world work. They are trying to do what they believe is best in every situation but guess what they're human and human are not perfect.


Would that this were true.  In my experience, most people do not do their best.  Most people become complacent, choosing the path of least resistance, ultimately following along with the rest of the sheeple.

No, we are not perfect.  However, nothing stops us from setting perfection as our goal and taking whatever steps we can while life is within us towards that goal.

The way to always do one's best is to constantly seek to do better. 




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RE: Equal Education For All - 8/25/2007 11:01:20 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I'm surprised no attorney would take the case.  Especially with all the negative publicity, which I would think would make the school district quick to settle.



The school "settled" by firing the teacher but no attorney would take the case because they didn't want to a part of suing a school. I was hoping for a big settlement so I could use the money to pay for ABA therapy. ABA is the best chance an autistic child has of learning to speak, but it's so expensive only the extremely wealthy can afford it.

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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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