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RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 1:52:47 PM

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Greetings Akasha,

pleasure to respond to Your thread, i am familiar with Your website and love it!

Anyway, about Your question... how much do subs understand femdoms... i think the truth of the matter is, subs dont understand femdoms and femdoms equally dont understand subs...

i mean, is 'understanding' even important or necessary in the D/s relationship? no, i dont think so... understanding is a luxury... for example, we dont understand how the universe works or why its here, but we are here and we are living... same thing with the D/s relationship... i think the Domme needs the sub to fulfill Her desires, and likewise the sub needs the Domme to fullfill his desires... its really as simple as that...but i wouldn't dare say that they understand each others desires, or even that they understand their own desires... its just two people who can benefit from each-other, who in a sense use each-other. Anyway, Akasha, does understanding really matter? if the Domme and sub click, enjoy their experiences, then thats all that matters... who knows why they click... the answer to that question is as mysterious as life itself.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 2:53:51 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I see what you are saying Aakasha, and I guess there are few things I’d like to answer to this.

First and foremost, I have rarely experienced a man becoming “un-sub-like” after orgasm. It has happened before and I just simply was not interested in pursuing. But in general, with the submissives I’ve encountered/engaged with, I’d tell you that their desire to submit to me did not go out the window after they came. Because in most cases, my D/s dynamics are quite psychological and not only sexual. I am also very, very picky about the submissives that I select.

- LA

I've also never had this problem with someone that we were in a D/s relationship with ... I know that it is something that many run into, but ... I guess we've just been either very smart about who we end up playing with, or we've been very lucky.

I agree. But I am careful about choosing My play partners. And I seldom enjoy playing anymore without the relationship to go with that play. That means someone who is going to spend the night, or spend the weekend, if not living in.
I take it back, I can just play (not intimate sexuality), and I don't really need a D/s dynamic to do that. In that instance, I am looking for a bottom for a quick fix. So I don't really care if he is submissive to Me afterward, because he is out the door anyway. Sounds harsh...but that's the way it is!
To find a boy for that 24/7 dynamic is harder, because I usually get the sense, pretty quickly, that this is only a different way of having a kinky sex relationship. It really isn't about serving a Domina at all. That will only last as long as he is horny. After the orgasm, he will revert to the typical alpha male behavior. Nothing wrong with that. It just isn't what I want.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to SweetDommes)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 3:03:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dasboot

Greetings Akasha,

pleasure to respond to Your thread, i am familiar with Your website and love it!

Anyway, about Your question... how much do subs understand femdoms... i think the truth of the matter is, subs dont understand femdoms and femdoms equally dont understand subs...

i mean, is 'understanding' even important or necessary in the D/s relationship? no, i dont think so... understanding is a luxury... for example, we dont understand how the universe works or why its here, but we are here and we are living... same thing with the D/s relationship... i think the Domme needs the sub to fulfill Her desires, and likewise the sub needs the Domme to fullfill his desires... its really as simple as that...but i wouldn't dare say that they understand each others desires, or even that they understand their own desires... its just two people who can benefit from each-other, who in a sense use each-other. Anyway, Akasha, does understanding really matter? if the Domme and sub click, enjoy their experiences, then thats all that matters... who knows why they click... the answer to that question is as mysterious as life itself.

Thank you for the kind words about my site.

Perhaps we are not talking about the same thing, but I think it's absolutely necessary for a sub to try to understand what makes me tick, and what motivates me to do the things I do to him. Without that, the interaction could turn flat.

It is one thing when a submissive endures the things I make him do or things I do to him; he may get off on it, he may just go along for the ride. But if he is not curious, does not care, or does not want to know *why* I lust to do these things, he's not going to find out just what buttons to push. I look for things in a partner, in the way he reacts and the way he responds to me. If he just is wrapped up in the acts themselves, not about turning me on, then the chances are that he may become a bore to me.

I have had partners that were a bore to me. They did not care about anything other then, "Hey, wow, I'm getting dominated, this is hot!" -- not about what it was doing for me, how it was affecting me, and how they could build upon that and even understand my motivations on a deeper level.

Those kinds of subs are the ones that learn to push my limits. Those ones are priceless.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to dasboot)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 3:43:32 PM

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From: Iowa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
They did not care about anything other then, "Hey, wow, I'm getting dominated, this is hot!" -- not about what it was doing for me, how it was affecting me, and how they could build upon that and even understand my motivations on a deeper level.

Thank you for sharing this excellent insight. 'Submissive' does not equal 'passive' in a relationship. A good sub needs to be thinking of, learning about, and giving back to his domme.

Dang, does anyone know of a good primer for male subs that I can recommend to the newbies?

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 4:24:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
They did not care about anything other then, "Hey, wow, I'm getting dominated, this is hot!" -- not about what it was doing for me, how it was affecting me, and how they could build upon that and even understand my motivations on a deeper level.

Thank you for sharing this excellent insight. 'Submissive' does not equal 'passive' in a relationship. A good sub needs to be thinking of, learning about, and giving back to his domme.

Dang, does anyone know of a good primer for male subs that I can recommend to the newbies?

I don't know that there are any hard and fast rules about this. The thing that subs need to do (and many do not, I have found) is ask questions. It used to amaze me that all the vanillas I "seduced" ask me so many more questions about my "kinkiness" than the subs did. Perhaps the subs figured they knew why I was wired that way (but were they wrong? usually) or maybe it didn't occur to them. The question I got from subs after a hot BDSM jaunt was "when can we do that again?" or "can we do more of <insert act>?"

The kinds of questions you should ask (not during the moment, but later on) are about her motivations (assuming she isn't doing it just for you). Why does she like to do it? Why do certain things turn her on? What turns her on about <insert act>? What is she thinking when she does it? What does it feel like inside of her? Does she ever get afraid of what she is feeling? Does she ever think of something but resist doing it? If so, why?

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to onceburned)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 4:48:25 PM

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From: Iowa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
The kinds of questions you should ask (not during the moment, but later on) are about her motivations (assuming she isn't doing it just for you). Why does she like to do it? Why do certain things turn her on? What turns her on about <insert act>? What is she thinking when she does it? What does it feel like inside of her? Does she ever get afraid of what she is feeling? Does she ever think of something but resist doing it? If so, why?

Wonderful! Thank you.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 6:29:59 PM

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i am still exploring with the Mistress, the relationship is new, and i think that at this point i'm just beginning to understand who She is as a person. Her Dominance, no, i don't understand that. It's a concept that's very foreign to who i am and therefore will require a paradigm shift to grasp fully. i know that i respond to it, that i respond in an elemental way to it, but it's a complementary mindset rather than a similar mindset. i don't know what makes Her tick because it means thinking in a way that's so unfamiliar to me. i may think of the same things, but i don't think the same way that She does.

Because of the way i think, i'm driven to discover what pleases the Mistress. i am also curious about why She does things the way She does, and what causes Her to feel different things, but i need Her help to figure that out most of the time. When we've been in the relationship longer, i may develop more intuition in this respect, or i may become able to make the shift. For now, i'm just really glad that i've found someone with enough patience to weather all the questions i ask on a regular basis.

(in reply to onceburned)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 9:44:28 PM

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well "burned", it is the "passive" part i have trouble with. online and in person. i am what is called here..the typical alpha macho male. i do not know any other way. i was not taught any other way. i live, breathe, think, feel, act, VANILLA. i am blue collar not white collar.

supposedly, tonight, my new Ms told me She is going to start teaching me about this passive thing. so we all will find out how well that goes over.
i was talking to Her in IM and She took exception to some of my answers. i wasn't nicey nice enough. "I" don't KNOW nicey nice. i am a street kid used to having things HIS way, as an only child for 50 plus years. SO She says She is going to start helping me understand.
this ought to be interesting.

later bro
the wolf

_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"

(in reply to onceburned)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 11:06:00 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

well "burned", it is the "passive" part i have trouble with. online and in person. i am what is called here..the typical alpha macho male. i do not know any other way. i was not taught any other way. i live, breathe, think, feel, act, VANILLA. i am blue collar not white collar.

supposedly, tonight, my new Ms told me She is going to start teaching me about this passive thing. so we all will find out how well that goes over.
i was talking to Her in IM and She took exception to some of my answers. i wasn't nicey nice enough. "I" don't KNOW nicey nice. i am a street kid used to having things HIS way, as an only child for 50 plus years. SO She says She is going to start helping me understand.
this ought to be interesting.

later bro
the wolf

As chris said:

quote:

'Submissive' does not equal 'passive' in a relationship. A good sub needs to be thinking of, learning about, and giving back to his domme.

lonewolf05, I am going to guess here that your Ms is not talking about "passive". She is, most likely, referring to simple respect. A Lady does not want a sub who is argumentative or constantly challenging Her instruction. If a boy consistently shows a poor tone of voice and a lot of attitude, the relationship will often go right down the drain.
It is up to you to trust and be willing to learn. It is wonderful that She is preparing to help you understand this.
Good luck.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to lonewolf05)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/10/2005 11:19:29 PM

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From: Iowa
Status: offline

Hey Wolf, as GoddessDustyGold mentioned I do not think that a good submissive is passive. A good submissive must actively try to understand his domme - its an important step to bringing more pleasure to her life.

I am not sure what your new Ms intends to teach you, but as you say it "ought to be interesting."

quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05
i was talking to Her in IM and She took exception to some of my answers. i wasn't nicey nice enough. "I" don't KNOW nicey nice. i am a street kid used to having things HIS way, as an only child for 50 plus years. SO She says She is going to start helping me understand.

You know, this is none of my business but I think she may be just the thing for you. I think you have been living with a lot of hurts, and maybe she can help sooth some of that pain - not to say she won't give totally new pain! <g> But at least the pain she gives you is temporary.

Hey, only two days to go.... best of luck, man.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 7/10/2005 11:20:29 PM >

(in reply to lonewolf05)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/11/2005 8:35:11 AM

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Akasha,

ok i'm going to interpet Your question in my own crazy way lol... why are humans fascinated with slavery and why do some of us have a deep seated desire to dominate or be dominated... i appologise for this quite general interpretation of Your question, but i cant answer it specifically because i've never been dominated by a Femdom or... even been dominated lol.

But, i do read some philosophy and political philosophy books (mainly out of my fascination with the Straussian influence on many of the leaders in Washington today) and i came across the ideas of a Bolshevik from Russia named Alexandre Kojève... which i think may be relevant to Your question.

Anyway, this Alexandre Kojève situated the idea that the enslavement of the “slave” by the “Master,” is the first truly human act, since humanity equals the negation of nature. By risking His own life to conquer the slave, the Master negates his own natural fear of death, for the sake of “recognition,” or “pure prestige,” something which is purely human rather than natural, according to Kojève.

In other words, slavery is not natural. It is not something which we observe in other animals on this earth... its a uniquely human trait...

In this way, the Master becomes 'truly human', by acting in definance of nature. The slave, by surrendering to slavery, either through the fear of death or of his own accord, in turn becomes 'less than human'. So why, Akasha, would some humans (Femdoms) want to become 'truly human' as Kojève coined it, and some humans (subs) want to become 'less than human'?

Kojève doesn't explain why, his quite simplistic observation stated above is as far as he goes. However, In my opinion (for those people who enjoy D/s on a level beyond mere kinky sex) their real reason for enjoying D/s is a subconcious one...

To the Femdom, dominating another is a truely 'human' act, an act of defiance against what is natural... defiance against their real place in nature as just another animal... the taboo of this difiance, this 'spitting' in the face of mother nature, is where the subconcious appeal and desire within a Femdom to dominate another comes from...

Similarly a sub is also acting in defiance of nature, but by becomming 'less than human'. It is not a natural trait in other animals to willfully subimt to another, to relinquish control to another... Once again the sub, on a subconscious level, experiences a rush of energy, a high if You will, by acting in defiance of the sub's real place in nature as just another animal...

So in essence, both the sub and Femdom may appear to be opposities, to have two completely different mind-sets... but beyond that exoteric facade', the driving force behind both subs and Femdoms is identical... the taboo of defying nature is O/our elixir.

(in reply to onceburned)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/11/2005 6:30:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

Hey Wolf, as GoddessDustyGold mentioned I do not think that a good submissive is passive. A good submissive must actively try to understand his domme - its an important step to bringing more pleasure to her life.

I am not sure what your new Ms intends to teach you, but as you say it "ought to be interesting."

quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05
i was talking to Her in IM and She took exception to some of my answers. i wasn't nicey nice enough. "I" don't KNOW nicey nice. i am a street kid used to having things HIS way, as an only child for 50 plus years. SO She says She is going to start helping me understand.

You know, this is none of my business but I think she may be just the thing for you. I think you have been living with a lot of hurts, and maybe she can help sooth some of that pain - not to say she won't give totally new pain! <g> But at least the pain she gives you is temporary.

Hey, only two days to go.... best of luck, man.

naw..she delayed it to 18th.
and i aint so sure she is gonna teach me anything....it depends, ya know?
i am not into emotional attachments, so that is out. i am into sex. so that is out.
as to s/m? not into pain either......
so we will see what/if there is anything to teach, huh?

later dude.
wolf

_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"

(in reply to onceburned)

RE: femdoms? - 7/14/2005 12:10:45 PM

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AAkasha;
seducing;
---------------
i realize You explained this to me once, but somehow i have a mental block on this topic. there is just something about it, which i cannot point to that does not compute in my lil head trying to grasp it.

i hope someday, to be able to understand it. but for now, it seems still illogical to me.
to seduce? maybe i am just too distrusting? i personally have never had any female, come-onto-me, so i think maybe THAT could be part of it.
it's not as if i am tall dark n handsome, nor rich, so i think since i have felt rejection more than acceptance THIS could be the reason i fail to grasp it?

whatever it is YOU do, sounds semi interesting, if it seems to work for You.

hmm. just have no words to explain the utter frustration of trying to grasp an unknown concept.

the wolf

_____________________________

"there is no gravity, life sucks!"

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/30/2005 1:41:11 AM

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MesChersDames,
As a consummate submissive, i have always understood that the things i need to know are not what You might do to me. my questions tend to be what would You like for dinner, do You like Your bedsheets tucked in on the sides, or loose, what flowers do You keep in Your Kitchen, Living room, Bath and/or bedroom. What is Your favored color of nail polish, do You like bubbles or lavender in Your bath, and what is Your favorite flavor of ice cream? Do You enjoy a nap, or if You put Your head down, are You out for the night.
In a perfect world (is there such a thing) a bowl of ice cream and a nap are always welcome, and a good sub will have the chores done before Mistress wakes up. that is my understanding.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/30/2005 2:11:33 AM

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quote:

but I do think that sex (or kink) is the core for most.

i actually always thought it was the mint chocolate chip afterwards.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/30/2005 4:14:35 AM

TiNeedsHouseboy

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From: Big Apple blossom blown to The Windy City
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned
Dang, does anyone know of a good primer for male subs that I can recommend to the newbies?

Dang! I do! Jack Rinella's new book is now available:

BECOMING A SLAVE
The Theory and Practice of Voluntary Servitude

The intro and chapter one are downloadable as free pdf samples.

Co-written with Jack's long-term slave/life partner, Patrick, who writes the slave perspective on each topic Jack picks.

Each chapter has a "workbook" section to apply what's learned.

Also, sign up for Jack's free weekly e-zine.

Don't be mislead that he's a guy and not a FemDom practitioner. Don’t be put off by the fact that Jack and Patrick happen to be a gay D/s couple. As a pal of mine noted, Jack is "quite the force" in the BDSM universe.... and unlike another known name on a parallel thread, Jack does not misrepresent his credentials.

You can get the book and sign up for the e-zine on his website. His previous articles are also archived on his website. It's a treasure trove of info on every conceivable BDSM topic.

Jack Rinella's Home Page

(I was going to note that you can't beat Jack.... but there are people with whom he switches -- and it would be possible. Read his back issues. You'll see what I mean. So, the pun/gag doesn't work here. Gotta think of one that might.)

~ Ti ~

(in reply to onceburned)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/30/2005 5:32:41 AM

TiNeedsHouseboy

Posts: 145
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From: Big Apple blossom blown to The Windy City
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05
and i aint so sure she is gonna teach me anything....it depends, ya know?
i am not into emotional attachments, so that is out. i am into sex. so that is out.
as to s/m? not into pain either......
so we will see what/if there is anything to teach, huh?

GOOD GRACIOUS! That's got to be one of the most unsettling posts I've read from someone on the brink of a prospective relationship. It sounds like you're determined to sabotage any chance you've got, before you've even got a foot firmly planted in her doorway. No wonder she delayed your interaction.

If you don't want an emotional attachment or sex (left out the "not" -- didn't you?) or pain, and you have an attitude that there's nothing to teach you because you're set in your ways, then what is it you're seeking from this woman? You don't sound like you're bubbling over with a desire to provide some sort of service. So, I'm totally confused about your motivation.

You can't write off brusqueness and narcissism to your blue-collar background. Something's afoot inside you, leading to distancing behaviors.

Let's compare and contrast what you've said with the guy I was involved with during my first two-and-a-half years in Chicago. He is a dyed-in-the-wool, blue-collar, alpha male. He worked in construction. Is that blue enough for his collar?

That didn't stop him from having manners and respect, or from having an interest in me, being generous (NOT financial!), or being interesting to sit and talk to -- on the phone and in person, or being spontaneous and full of surprises. Our relationship would have lasted much longer, except he wanted to get married, and we didn't view each other as complementary marriage material.

None of that was related to D/s or sex, in case you're wondering. We had an extremely hot sex life. It's because of him that I discovered my brain had a spontaneous, totally unexpected ability to click into "submit" mode. It never happened with anyone but him. (That experience is the reason my profile reads, "Some Switch potential.") Even so, I wasn't in love with him. I didn't think I ever would be. I doubt he was in love with me. In fact, I was shocked that he brought up marriage.

For me, he was just a studly roll in the hay, who was good company while I was taking classes. I'm nine years younger than he is and I had a whole bunch of concerns about the long-term ramifications. Our religious backgrounds are totally different. He also had qualms about his ability to fit into my life when our educational backgrounds were vastly different. So, on some level, his blue-collar background was a factor -- but never for a moment because of issues related to your list above.

What benefits are you hoping to derive from a D/s alliance -- or a relationship with any woman, for that matter? How will you go about wooing a woman if you're antagonistic from the start?

You remarked, "It depends, ya know?" No, I dunno! Depends on what?

~ Ti ~

(in reply to lonewolf05)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/30/2005 7:06:16 AM

RosaB

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quote:

MesChersDames,
As a consummate submissive, i have always understood that the things i need to know are not what You might do to me. my questions tend to be what would You like for dinner, do You like Your bedsheets tucked in on the sides, or loose, what flowers do You keep in Your Kitchen, Living room, Bath and/or bedroom. What is Your favored color of nail polish, do You like bubbles or lavender in Your bath, and what is Your favorite flavor of ice cream? Do You enjoy a nap, or if You put Your head down, are You out for the night.
In a perfect world (is there such a thing) a bowl of ice cream and a nap are always welcome, and a good sub will have the chores done before Mistress wakes up. that is my understanding.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll take one or two of those Submissive types please. : )

Rosa

(in reply to TiNeedsHouseboy)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/30/2005 7:45:26 AM

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/minor threadjack TiNeedsHouseboy thanks for these recommendations (reading now!) I'm always on the lookout for more material this looks excellent :)

OP I don't always understand the motivation behind the methods, I usually ask later if it's unclear. Sometimes I don't - the mystery alone can be a little puzzle to delightfully torment me!

Understanding the Master's motivation and triggers is a big part tho I do agree. Blind submitting without caring or looking for those delectible little triggers would be lack of interest, IMHO.

_____________________________

“The giant Grof was hit in one eye by a stone,
and that eye turned inward so that it looked into his mind and he died of what he saw there.”
From The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, by Patricia A. McKillip

(in reply to TiNeedsHouseboy)

RE: How much do subs understand femdoms? - 7/30/2005 1:58:43 PM

HiTop

Posts: 22
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned
]

I think the problem has two sources. The first is the way boys and girls are raised. Girls are taught to value relationships, to derive happiness from their connection to others. Boys are taught to do their own thing - to go out and indulge their desires - to derive happiness from the pleasure they experience. Altering the raise boys are raised might be necessary to close some of the "gender gap."

The second reason, I think, is that the submission of so many guys is hardwired to their sex drive. They have trouble thinking about submission apart from thinking about sex. I do not know if there is a way to overcome this. But maybe some kind of boot camp for malesubs - breakdown their egoistic sex drive and re-orient their submission to being pleasing. (I am only half serious about this solution - but its better than despair.)

I have to disagree with your evaluation of Nature vs. Nurture. I believe a great deal of our assorted drives are hardwired into our systems. Cultural differances about personal space and how the sexes relate to each other... across lines and parallel to them... m/m m/f f/f .... may vary, but but my assertion is that women are by their physiological/ genetic makeup more relationship oriented, more touchy feely, more verbal. Men are more aggressive, less vocal, and more dispassionate about their relationship environment.

Men are a lot more straight line in dealing with any issue or topic. Women tend to analyze and balance the choices before moving forward. Each trait has it's faults and it's strengths.

As Doms and subs, gender irrelevant, the hunger for control or freedom from responsibility is probably more a result of nurture. A femme may be strong and motivated but I doubt she will so freely react aggressively to a situation as a man would. Men on the other hand, for instance the mono sylabblic subs who can't put thought to paper beyond how to 'play', I contend will perhaps rush in where angels fear to tread but still have a good enough average that the human race has thrived.

In fact, we humans thrive because there are all kinds and the two sexes are each better off with the talents shared across all lines.
I reject the notion that any one gender is superior... superior at what?

As for what I may suppose motivates a Fem (since I stuck my nose in here)... women like security, and consistancy. Ultimately, it's about long term stability. And wanting to ensure those things, I am guessing the Fem seeks control to assure her that this will be the case.
How the nuts n bolts of a stable home and life boiling down to freaky adult fun, well, that's a question for the ages, isn't it?
My guess, give the lady a sense of control and prove your self a consistant provider of what she needs.

And women are women. They are amazed and stricken if you take time out to send flowers or a Hallmark card every 4-8 weeks. Frequently remind them they are the center of your world.

(in reply to onceburned)

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