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Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 7:06:35 PM

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I don't remember these types of questions happening much on usenet in the days of alt.sex.bondage (maybe someone from the old days can chime in), but it seems like a great deal of them are absolutely subjective. Things like "am I a bad slave because...." or "he collared me, what does this mean?" or "how do you pick a slave name?".

Do vanillas in new relationships ask things like:

"He started to refer to me as his girlfriend. What does that mean?"

"What kind of shoes should I wear on a first date?"

"She said he loves me a week after we met. Does that mean she really loves me?"

"Who should drive on the first date?"

"I heard him swear on the phone talking to his friends, but he doesn't swear in front of me. Is he a potty mouth and hiding it? Does being a potty mouth mean he's a bad person?"

It's one thing to ask about bdsm technique and whatnot, but so many questions are about relationship protocol -- when in reality there is no specific, approved relationship protocol, just like vanilla dating. It all depends on the two people involved. To ask questions about what is right or wrong will never get a clear answer.

What's even more odd is that these questions come up very regularly. Is it a quest for conformity -- or are people just trying to "fit" into a lifestyle/kink by doing what they think is the "approved" way, regardless of what their actual relationship dynamics are?

Akasha

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RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 7:25:42 PM

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AAkasha,

The questions you asked in the beginning of your post had me chuckling. It reminded me of those black and white old educational films of the 50s. Now I wasn't born until the 60s, but it reminded me of old films within the old films played for like sex education or something like instructional. I can hear the voice as well when reading that. The male deep matter of factual voice. Almost like on the disney cartoons that had the "How to do" themes.

As far as the latter questions in your posts, I think there are a bunch of new people who are very young who don't understand and would ask these questions of their friends in real life. 18 is young. That is still a teenager. Of course they would say to their friends, "I am going out with so and so tonight.... what do you think I should wear,etc." But I also think when a person is new to the lifestyle, they do strive for conformity because they haven't grown into their lifestyle self so they want to blend. I think they are just trying to grow into their lifestyle personality. It can be a bit scarey when you realize that you aren't this weird twisted person for wanting what you want and then go out in search of others and find them, but you don't realize whether or not you are different from them, so you conform. I think that is kind of classic for anyone new to something or anyone young.

When I first came out into the lifestyle, I didn't ask too many questions, but I think it might have been because I was older and I had the attitude of, "if you don't like me the way I am, screw you." I think it also makes a difference on how the person feels about themselves and whether or not they are vomfortable in their own skin and how they are as a person. Sometimes folks look for validation.

Just some thoughts.

rhi

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 7:44:33 PM

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Very possibly it comes from nervousness and being new or dealing with a new relationship dynamic. Some of these questions arise because of a lack of communication between two people.

I am new to being out in a public BDSM atmosphere. Most of my kink was with former girlfriends in a very private atmosphere. I have many many questions, most of which I find answers to on the internet. But that does not stop me from going to the local group meetings here in Baltimore and asking even more questions.

The truth is that many questions have to be answered between those people in a relationship be it vanilla or BDSM. And it just comes right back to good communication between partners.

I met a very nice woman a few months back. Since I met her I ask myself: How can I tell she is single? She flirts back and even initiates flirting, she is receptive to conversation, she tells me details about herself every time we talk. And it is not just this, at first it was physical attraction for me, now as I learned more about her, I am more interested in her personality. So my answer is yes, vanilla life has it's many many questions. Each of which are different than someone else's questions, and they have different answers.

In BDSM, many are so new that they just do not know how to even begin to formulate an answer. We already present, can help present them with the path to find those answers. But many if not all, will have to find their own answers themselves. I have had to do this, and I am sure many others have too, finding answers is, well there are no absolutes in life. So, Yes many are trying to fit into the lifestyle/kink by doing what they think is approved, regardless of what their actual relationship dynamic is. Perhaps it is a fear of loss of that one person they have met and believe they will find no other if they are let go. Maybe they want to make their partner happy regardless of their own desires, wants and needs of intimacy and happiness.

To answer the driving on a date question: I drive 10 hours a day for work, if my date wants to drive, I have absolutely no problem with that

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 8:00:22 PM

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Hmmm... I have kind of a harsh response but it seems to have a measure of logic to it...

'Back in the day' the number of people actually online were fewer. As owning a computer became more & more affordable, the numbers grew. With the growth explosion online happening & D/s, BDSM & fetishes becoming more hip, the numbers still continued to grow. Now more & more views, theories, rules, right way/wrong way, my way or the highway mentalities began to flourish. People taking what they wanted & leaving the rest behind became the accepted practice, and still the numbers grew...

Grew right into a big watered down gene-pool. There were always silly questions being asked-- there are just many more people out there asking the same old tired questions.

MstrssPassion

ps... as I said, a bit harsh, but I am a little put off by some of these questions

(in reply to rhianna4u)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 8:04:41 PM

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When a new person ventures onto the internet to find answers to the questions that have been nagging at them for however long, they're quickly overwhelmed with a great deal of bullshit. Yes, there are some shining beacons of truth out there, honest voices who tell us that there is no One Twue Way of doing any of this, but for the most part they're drowned out by two groups: the bitter, jaded, cynical old-timers who resent having their views on things bent by impertinent whippersnappers and the fluffy bunnies'n'rainbows crowd who turn every scene into a Disneyfied wankfest of glittery souls connecting on a spiritual plane beyond this one.

Given the judgemental attitudes that fly so quickly in message boards and chat rooms, it can inspire raw terror in the heart of a newbie. They're desperate to conform, to learn the One Twue Way down to the tiniest details. There's so much to learn, so many opinions flying past left and right, that they scramble after the silliest answers, thinking that maybe, just maybe, if they gather all of these up and put them all in a neat little line, some of this will make sense.

It's a frightening place, the intarweb. But it's also the easiest place to turn to in search of information, to bolster one's courage before venturing out into the real world where they'll earn their scars alongside everyone else. I see the ridiculous questions from a new person as a way for them to tack another scale onto their shield and armor, so they feel more secure before trying the real thing. And this scene, this lifestyle, has so many rules, regulations, rituals, potential for good and bad... vanilla dating (which frightened me enough as it was) had nothing on this shit.

But that's just my take on it, as someone who is relatively new and has yet to get out into the "real" scene, someone who's still hanging around here and reading everything I can.

Not asking questions though. Uh uh. I'm not that brave.

Edited to add: I just remembered to clarify... it's easy to think there should be some sort of rule or ritual to govern relationship protocols around here, since everything else has that sort of thing attached to it as well. We bombarded with nothing but these things from the first time we start casting around online, and when that's the one area where we find no answers written down, it seems natural to want to ask about them before making a mistake that will get us flamed (or worse, kicked out of a munch/party/dungeon).

< Message edited by Isolde -- 7/7/2005 8:07:17 PM >

(in reply to dominmd)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 8:05:53 PM

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I would consider myself young, at twenty, and notably I am conflicted with the question.

Not as of late (as I've been in a fairly long term relationship) but when I was freelance dating, I asked a lot of ridiculous and silly questions because I was pretty confused about dating protocol- and yes, there is plain vanilla dating protocol.

Now, as I've discovered myself as being someone who wants to be a part of bdsm, I haven't gone about it quite the same way. I've been quietly doing research, reading books and website, as well as privately questioning. This works for me. I still have questions though, and the people who have to suffer my questioning are getting bothered with timid, insecure and stupid questions. Maybe you see the spirit of the Life, or the Scene, as fitting into your unique dynamic- representing yourself comfortably. Of course, from the reading I've been doing, even though the MOST important thing is the dynamic, there is still a lot of stock in the way things are "done." I don't want to say the life is a bizarre social heirarchy that functions with rigorous standards, but it sort of seems like it is. Then again, I haven't partaken, so I can't really say.

What I'm trying to say is, maybe they should be looking up what collaring means- I have found a large variety of websites that offer thorough descriptions. Maybe they are asking things that could be found by some looking. I am sure some of the questions are more oppinion-- and yes, they feel the need for approval.

I genuinely hope that I will become a strong, independent and beautiful person who is appreciated by others like myself once given the chance- but right now, I feel like asking stupid questions too- because even though I "Know" things, I don't feel confident in my knowledge, or up to par with others.

Sorry for the diatribe.

Oh, and (though I won't quote) someone above mentioned that especially since people are just realizing now that what they are feeling isn't wrong, or sick- they might be especially confused.
This is very true- I consider myself raised as an independent thinker- but until recently, I was still under the impression that bdsm was wrong, sick, or a side effect of my earlier abuse. It has brought me great comfort, but also great confusion to find out there is nothing wrong with me.

< Message edited by SophiaBelle -- 7/7/2005 8:08:40 PM >

(in reply to dominmd)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 8:07:11 PM

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I reply to the op..It's just basic stupidity born of insecurity, People don't want to think for themselves.

< Message edited by Gemeni -- 7/7/2005 8:08:27 PM >

(in reply to SophiaBelle)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 9:06:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Isolde

Given the judgemental attitudes that fly so quickly in message boards and chat rooms, it can inspire raw terror in the heart of a newbie. They're desperate to conform, to learn the One Twue Way down to the tiniest details. There's so much to learn, so many opinions flying past left and right, that they scramble after the silliest answers, thinking that maybe, just maybe, if they gather all of these up and put them all in a neat little line, some of this will make sense.

That was a beautifully accurate description of how I once felt. Thank you.

(in reply to Isolde)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/7/2005 11:44:55 PM

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i guess "I' do not understand either.

but then "I" have an issue with the word conformity.

gawd i hate people shoving their ideals down my throat.
maybe? i do not grasp sibling rivalry either, BUT, maybe some of them are exactly just too new and are into peer pressure stuff. another term not in my dictionary.
so n so says ya gotta be this or do that. yeah. okay. maybe a lot em do.

must be this newest generation coming in.

i DO feel sorry for them. esp. if their parents are too stupid to help.

the wolf

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RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 12:43:11 AM

Gauge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemeni

I reply to the op..It's just basic stupidity born of insecurity, People don't want to think for themselves.

Hang on just one cotton pickin' minute. There is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Ignorance is curable with education, stupidity is not.

I am sorry but I take a bit of an issue with this statement because one of the FIRST things that people tell newbies on this (or any other site for that matter) is to ask questions. This lifestyle is replete with etiquette and protocol and rules and regulations. How is anyone supposed to learn if they don't ask questions? Perhaps they might seem trivial to some, but to the one that is asking the question their issue is important. Maybe it is an old subject that has been beaten to death, but so what? People post links in order to point the new person to an old thread about the same question.

Come on... has everyone forgotten that they asked questions too? I am sure your questions weren't original and had been asked before but someone took the time to answer you and educate you. Were your questions born out of stupidity and insecurity?

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(in reply to Gemeni)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 12:45:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I don't remember these types of questions happening much on usenet in the days of alt.sex.bondage (maybe someone from the old days can chime in), but it seems like a great deal of them are absolutely subjective. Things like "am I a bad slave because...." or "he collared me, what does this mean?" or "how do you pick a slave name?".

Do vanillas in new relationships ask things like:

"He started to refer to me as his girlfriend. What does that mean?"

"What kind of shoes should I wear on a first date?"

... In reality there is no specific, approved relationship protocol, just like vanilla dating.

In the early days of usenet, almost all the posters were of superior intelligence. Usenet spread from the ARPAnet to EDUnet and other private networks, and then to dial-up ISPs. Participating required some technical skill. The creation of HTML front-ends to usenet made it easy for anyone with a PC and $19.95 a month to post, and that was the beginning of the end. I still remember the outcry that followed the first usenet advertising spam.

Now there seems to be a goodly number of people with the idea that the uncertainties of vanilla dating are somehow magically avoided in the BDSM subculture. Partly this comes from the fantastic nature of a lot of BDSM erotica. Also I think that a number of people who have difficulty establishing vanilla relationships are attracted to the subculture, mistakenly believing that somewhere there is a magic set of BDSM rules, and that if all the rules can be learned and followed then they will surely find an partner.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 5:09:42 AM

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People want to fit in, people want to be right, people yearn for acceptance and approval, and when confused, they turn to others to have the answers.

The down side of that is that you then have people who turn that into "you SHOULD do this" "A dom who doesn't do this is WRONG" because they have internalized others expectations and sometimes are afraid to take an individual stand and risk criticism and ostracizing.

When a person learns the confidence in themselves to stand on their own ideas, then this will stop. Until then, we can expect more. I also don't think this is an AGE issue, but a NOVICE issue.

I still ask advice for things, but I do so knowing that I have to choose and take responsibility for what works for me.

It will never cease to amaze me how people get into bdsm so THRILLED that they can be who they want and break out of their old rules...and then immediately try and set up new boundaries.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 7:02:20 AM

perfection20005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Hang on just one cotton pickin' minute. There is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. Ignorance is curable with education, stupidity is not.

I am sorry but I take a bit of an issue with this statement because one of the FIRST things that people tell newbies on this (or any other site for that matter) is to ask questions. This lifestyle is replete with etiquette and protocol and rules and regulations. How is anyone supposed to learn if they don't ask questions? Perhaps they might seem trivial to some, but to the one that is asking the question their issue is important. Maybe it is an old subject that has been beaten to death, but so what? People post links in order to point the new person to an old thread about the same question.

Come on... has everyone forgotten that they asked questions too? I am sure your questions weren't original and had been asked before but someone took the time to answer you and educate you. Were your questions born out of stupidity and insecurity?

I have to agree with Gauge on this one. I have always been told that there is no such thing as a stupid question. Sure, it may seem ridiculous to one person, but it may help another. We all have to learn somewhere, and I'm glad there are sites like this one that can help out. If you don't like the thread, ignore it.

perfection

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RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 9:28:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slatyb

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I don't remember these types of questions happening much on usenet in the days of alt.sex.bondage (maybe someone from the old days can chime in), but it seems like a great deal of them are absolutely subjective. Things like "am I a bad slave because...." or "he collared me, what does this mean?" or "how do you pick a slave name?".

Do vanillas in new relationships ask things like:

"He started to refer to me as his girlfriend. What does that mean?"

"What kind of shoes should I wear on a first date?"

... In reality there is no specific, approved relationship protocol, just like vanilla dating.

In the early days of usenet, almost all the posters were of superior intelligence. Usenet spread from the ARPAnet to EDUnet and other private networks, and then to dial-up ISPs. Participating required some technical skill. The creation of HTML front-ends to usenet made it easy for anyone with a PC and $19.95 a month to post, and that was the beginning of the end. I still remember the outcry that followed the first usenet advertising spam.

Now there seems to be a goodly number of people with the idea that the uncertainties of vanilla dating are somehow magically avoided in the BDSM subculture. Partly this comes from the fantastic nature of a lot of BDSM erotica. Also I think that a number of people who have difficulty establishing vanilla relationships are attracted to the subculture, mistakenly believing that somewhere there is a magic set of BDSM rules, and that if all the rules can be learned and followed then they will surely find an partner.

I would agree about the posters being different in the early days, but I don't think that relates to their social graces or vanilla dating abilities. A great majority of the people on the net pre-ISP were ubergeeks. I met just as many guys back then with zero concept about dating as I do now.

After thinking about this, I wonder if the increasing presence of self-appointed 'authorities' starts to give the impression that there IS a protocol that people must learn in order to be considered "bdsm community" material. There are a lot of people online now that present themselves as experts. I'm not talking about the obvious things that have seemed somewhat standard from the beginning -- like issues of consent. I'm talking about more subjective things like what a collar represents, what communication/limits are established for various labels (sub, slave, etc.), or appropriate protocol for initiating contact or communicating with each other. It seems like the idea of acting first and foremost like two vanilla people until both people have agreed to engage in bdsm is becoming a thing of the past. Online, all the bdsm posturing starts in the first email, according to whatever protocol that person picked up from the online gurus.

Akasha

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(in reply to slatyb)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 9:38:08 AM

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Ok ... so what kind of shoes should I wear on a first date anyway?

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 9:57:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I'm not talking about the obvious things that have seemed somewhat standard from the beginning -- like issues of consent. I'm talking about more subjective things like what a collar represents, what communication/limits are established for various labels (sub, slave, etc.),

Take a look at the forums, mentors and protectors are praised and advised. People WANT someone to tell them how it's done. They WANT to feel happy and taken care of by an expert.

quote:

It seems like the idea of acting first and foremost like two vanilla people until both people have agreed to engage in bdsm is becoming a thing of the past. Online, all the bdsm posturing starts in the first email, according to whatever protocol that person picked up from the online gurus.

Akasha

Well, saying that we should "act like vanilla people" doesn't make sense. I AM a slave. The reality is that I don't ACT any differently from a vanilla person, and my being a slave shouldn't change how anyone ACTS towards me.

People differ in that, they feel submissives should ACT a certain way, should APPROACH dominants a certain way and vice versa.

I don't think I should approach someone "as a vanilla chick" but I should approach them as MYSELF who happens to be meeting a stranger. If I feel a chemistry there, I will act on it, first meeting or 15th meeting.

The problem is you have subs and doms in frenzy acting on it without the balance of judgement and sense.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 10:08:57 AM

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The issue I take with this sort of stuff is it's not ignorant to ask questions.

It IS stupid to think everything has to be spoon fed to one..Rather than seeking answers for yourself,because you have a functional MIND.

*I* take issue with people who can't think for themselves,and are so worried about appearances and conformity that they feel they MUST seek every answer from the mediocre "herd".

This is NOT the way that superior individuals are made people.

< Message edited by Gemeni -- 7/8/2005 10:14:55 AM >

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 10:52:41 AM

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quote:

Do some questions seem plain ridiculous?

The word "seem" places the answer to this question into the realm of subjectivity. Do I sometimes look at a question and think, "Wow, that's a ridiculous question." Yes, sometimes I do.

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(in reply to Gemeni)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 10:53:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
It will never cease to amaze me how people get into bdsm so THRILLED that they can be who they want and break out of their old rules...and then immediately try and set up new boundaries.

I both agree and disagree- I am certain that this is the case with some. I think there is a great deal of variance, though it may appear to be what you have stated.

For instance- I am thrilled- and it make look like I simply want to break out of my old rules, but I don't feel that's true. It's not rules I am glad to be rid of- it is more things like expectations and 'truths.' I am thrilled I am not crazy. And yes, I am happy that I can be who I want, but perhaps, who I want to be is bound by endless rules, protocols and boundaries.

I think you were ultimately on to something when you said "I still ask advice for things, but I do so knowing that I have to choose and take responsibility for what works for me."

That is the crux of it- asking for help but picking and choosing what is right and appropriate for you. I think the trouble is not coming from the questions asked- but rather that the answers provided are taken as law by the novice who asks.
I have asked for advice, and sometimes it is genuinely to expose myself to new ideas, sometimes it is to validate an idea I already had but was unsure about. Though I value most people's imput, sometimes I have to say "no, that wouldn't work for me."
No one is really wrong here, and shouldn't be stigmatized (I am in no way saying that you do so to others.)

BDSM appeals to me on many levels. The most important is the D/s relationship with my Sir. This takes precedence over the bondage and S&M and various other sexualities. However, BDSM as a community also appeals to me. In a way I crave some social structure and guidance. Once again, these are to be taken in a healthy way that works for the individual- but I see nothing wrong with wanting some "Boundaries" as long as they are not absolute.

I am not sure that this post made any sense whatsoever. Sorry.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Do some questions seem plain ridiculous? - 7/8/2005 12:58:41 PM

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Generally much of these things can be picked up by attending meetings and then play parties once comfortable. Munches are another excellent venue for learning and asking questions. Text can only convey thought and to a certain degree, feelings. Online is nice for finding people and groups, but those really interested in BDSM will go out and meet people. I have learned a lot since my first meeting (I have only made it to 3). I asked questions, but they were also based on what I had already found on the internet. Face to face is so much easier for me now because others can understand what I am saying better due to body language, tone, gestures, and eye contact.

And if you ask me, finding someone in BDSM is way harder than finding someone on the vanilla dating circuit. Again, protocols for BDSM are different to a degree from vanilla. But both types require certain things: honesty, trust, respect, etc. If there are none of these you will fail in both areas.

(in reply to SophiaBelle)

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