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SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/26/2007 5:59:20 PM

PAINTRAIN

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/20/2007
Status: offline

This question is neither directed specifically to any Dom/me or sub/slave... but to anyone that can answer my question.
I am new to Collarme. com and new to the lifestyle (only about 6 months experience). I have had one slave with whom I was learning from, along with many books I have read.
I will give you a little insight... to make my delimma a bit easier to understand.
I am well aware that there are psychological affects that the practice of BDSM can inflict upon a person, and for the last four months I am one of the people feeling its effects, so severly that it is causing me to question my ability. It was about that time that I encountered an incident that has since weighed heavily on my mind... and I want to know how to put it past me so that it does not affect me or any slave I may take in the future.
At the time that I got into learning the lifestyle from my slave Iwas informed by her that she had about six years experience in the lifestyle, in real life. Now, I'm finding that hard to believe since the time of this incident... and once you have finished reading, I am certain you will understand.
Well to make a long story short, we had started out with "baby steps" to break me in. About four months ago she decided we should experiment with a scene that was alot less tame in nature at her request. Well at the hieght of the scene something didn't feel right to me... so I stopped the scene, maybe a look in her eye, or something that just told me there was a problem. Once I stopped, I leaned over her to attempt to dry the tears she now cried, and asked her what was wrong, at which time she cowered from me. Later that evening she confided in me that she forgot her safe word and signal. Both were implimented for just this reason.
That scene led to the decline of our relationship. And upon going our seperate ways, she informed me that it would be a safe practice for me to get out of the lifestyle as I was abusive and controlling.
Now please correct me if I am mistaken... but I am under the impression that there is some level of abuse and control in the BDSM lifestyle. I am also under the impression that an experienced sub/slave does not make it everyday practice to "forget" their safewords.
Is there anyone else here who has encountered this delimma, and how did you work thru it?

Post #: 1

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/26/2007 6:31:44 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

wow...that seriously sucks and i am sorry it happened...i am not sure if this is relavent but a FemDom/femsub couple i know had an issue of the sub would not call her safe word...so over months the Dom worked with her before ever doing a heavy scene...where she would cause her pain (like pinching or pushing on a pressure point or digging her finger nail into her ear or something like that) at random moments through out the day and night on a regular basis and not stopping until she said her safe word...sometimes not stopping until she screamed her safe word...she was not harming her...at most it was very annoying...but it was because she wanted to play heavy with her but did not feel it would be safe for either of them if she would not use her safe word where she could hear it...now i know some may not agree with this method...but it worked for them...
good luck...don't give up...
chelle

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 2

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/26/2007 6:36:10 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAINTRAIN
Now please correct me if I am mistaken... but I am under the impression that there is some level of abuse and control in the BDSM lifestyle. I am also under the impression that an experienced sub/slave does not make it everyday practice to "forget" their safewords.

Then please permit me to correct you...you ARE mistaken. There should be NO level of abuse in any relationship, BDSM, Vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, or what have you. Abuse is wrong. Period.

I cannot comment on your particular experience much, as you were the one there, not I. Certainly if a safeword is implemented the submissive is responsible for remembering it. However, the top in any scene is responsible for keeping the scene under control; the submissive's safeword is a safeguard against going too far, but it does not remove your accountability for paying attention to all the signs and signals emanating within the scene.

If you simply did not read the signs correctly until you had already gone too far, then chalk it up as a learning experience and work at being more attentive in the future. Mistakes do happen, and sometimes they carry major consequences--like the end of a relationship.

If you didn't pay attention to the signs because you placed complete reliance on the submissive's use of her safeword, then learn the lesson of responsibility and accountability. Safeword or no, it's your scene, and you are responsible for what happens.

Incidentally, this is one reason why I do not employ safewords when playing with my slave, unless the scene precludes use of the normal words like "No" and "Stop". Rather than pass the buck to her, I focus on her body language, tone of voice, and other signs to determine when the scene has gone far enough, when I'm on the trailing edge of "too far".

_____________________________

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 3

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 6:21:13 AM

sadomasokisti

Posts: 221
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Iceland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAINTRAIN

Now please correct me if I am mistaken... but I am under the impression that there is some level of abuse and control in the BDSM lifestyle. I am also under the impression that an experienced sub/slave does not make it everyday practice to "forget" their safewords.
Is there anyone else here who has encountered this delimma, and how did you work thru it?

Just like celticlord2112 said, no level of abuse. Period.

But I like to add a little to the safe word question. My sister slave often not only forgot all safe words in the beginning but she simply wasn't able to speak at all when things got too hot for her. She was then to hold a thing in her hand and to drop it when needed. She also had problems with that on occasions. The only thing that worked was to monitor her closely and watch for signs in her responses and gesture.

_____________________________

Pain is good. Extreme pain is extremely good

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 4

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 6:51:27 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAINTRAIN

Now please correct me if I am mistaken... but I am under the impression that there is some level of abuse and control in the BDSM lifestyle. I am also under the impression that an experienced sub/slave does not make it everyday practice to "forget" their safewords.
Is there anyone else here who has encountered this delimma, and how did you work thru it?

You have already been told this, but it never hurts to stress enough. You are wrong. Abuse has no place in BDSM.

Celticlord gave you excellent advice. The only thing I would add is that a mentor could assist you in monitoring your scenes for a while. Public play parties have Dungeon Monitors who can step in during a scene to end it if things appear out of hand. Whether you are playing publicly or privately, while you are learning, it would not hurt to have an experienced person there to guide you. Without knowing just how personal and intimate these scenes are - and exactly what sort of scene was a LOT LESS tame than you had engaged in before- I can't really know if another party observing and monitoring would work or not. I just think for your own protection if nothing else - you might be better served to have a mentor training you.

I know there are couples who experiment with BDSM in the privacy of their own homes, and do it safely and find it thrilling and fulfilling. I doubt anyone needs a mentor for OTK spankings, but you speak of 'abuse' to the extent you had someone cowering from you and a scene you claim destroyed a relationship. This implies to me you are engaging in activities entirely more edgy than an OTK spanking.

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 5

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 9:03:31 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Safe words are forgotten in scenes all the time. It's one of the biggest reasons people choose not to use them- when IN a scene, they often become useless.

My advice to get past it is
a) stop making it all HER fault. She didn't decide anything- you decided to do this TOGETHER.
b) don't use safewords anymore
c) use regular, direct, consistent communication. yes, this means she might not get to her happy place as much or as deep, but so what? You're new, you need to learn about eachother and how to communicate. This is laying the groundwork for the future.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 6

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 9:40:24 AM

e01n

Posts: 1472
Status: offline

BDSM is not abuse. Conversely, abuse is not BDSM.

If you care enough to play with someone, care enough to pay attention to what's going on with them.

I tend towards RACK rather than SSC. Even then, without safewords, I trust Her enough to be able to see when to stop pushing and maybe even stop completely. But that's because we're watching and feeling and listening and generally being totally immersed in the experience.

But that immersion can still be halted and controlled if anyone were to say "red"...

If there's a problem with remembering safewords and if they are integral to your play, you try using "stoplight" ones - "red" as full stop, "yellow" as "this needs a bit of adjustment, but we're continuing" or the like and "green" as a follow-up to yellow, that all is well and now's the time to get it on... It's a pretty simple thing and kinda hard to forget.

If speech is a problem, something that will make a loud noise when dropped also works.

But all of this means NOTHING if you don't act on the instruction. Vide supra.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 7

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 9:56:27 AM

PAINTRAIN

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/20/2007
Status: offline

are we all not reading the same post here? i did stop... when i felt something was not right... the emediate moment i felt it... if that was not soon enough... please forgive my ignorance... but bare in mind... i admitted i am still green, and nomatter how much experience you can not read minds. i dont need to be chastizes by anyone... trust me when i tell you i am still beating myself up over what happened... so much that i was the one to end the relationship... because i needed time to figure out how to clear my mind. i know i fuked up... but to this day i cant honestly tell you how. as for someone observing... sorry thats one time no one observes... it was sexual in nature and i dont do well with an audience. and if you look, i beleive i have a post on here announcing myself and welcoming any assistance since i am new... and dont want a bad experience to ruin it for me. as for blaming her... i only blame her for the inability to use the safeword... SHE CHOSE!!! i blame me every single day... hence the reason I have posted here. however it seems that most of you are so quick to jump the gun that none can actually give the advice i actually need1

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 8

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 9:58:56 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

The amount of control in a d/s relationship is what you both agree to. Personally, I see no room for any abuse.

As far as forgetting safewords, oh yes. Both forgetting and being unable to use them. In subspace I go preverbal, I also have been known to fly so high that I'm out of touch with my body. He stopped suddenly one day, untied me and started rubbing my wrist. It had gone cold and blue without me being aware of it. In fact when I tried to talk, it was obvious I was objecting to the ropes coming off.

Now if things hit an emotional trigger, I'm afraid to talk. What good is a safeword if I'm in a state where I'm afraid to object to anything? Luckily he read my body language, saw me cowering, felt my body go rigid and he stopped and slowly got me to be able to talk to him again.

But if you're expecting to do whatever you want without paying any attention to your partner's responses, then you're someone I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

Safewords and signals have their place, but they are no excuse for someone to totally ignore what's going on with the other person.

(in reply to e01n)

Post #: 9

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 10:02:18 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

Ok...well then......

As far as safe words go...there is one I don't have to ever put much thought into, and never forget.

Default Safeword: Goddammit motherfucker, stop.

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 10

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 10:03:29 AM

Aileen68

Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline

I think after reading all of this that you did everything just fine. Your only mistake was putting the word abuse in your first post because it seems that that is all anyone has focused on. You obviously aren't an abuser because you're concerne by the incident and you did stop when you sensed something wasn't right. That is exactly what you should have done when your partner couldn't speak. Don't beat yourself up. You did fine.

Edited to add...that I also agree that a sub is responsible for remembering the safeword and a dom is responsible for seeing the signs of a problem when said sub doesn't remember...which the dom in question here did.

This is why I don't use safewords.

< Message edited by Aileen68 -- 8/27/2007 10:05:41 AM >

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 11

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 10:07:23 AM

collareddreams

Posts: 25
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

I have been in the lifestyle 10 years since i was 17, and about 3 years ago i took time off to examine my OWN needs & wants because of one bad choice/situation... I live POLY- and if anyone ever needs to talk- hollar...
~serenity

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 12

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 10:07:36 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

I don't think forgetting is quite the same as choosing not to use a safeword.

However, you put so much guilt on yourself over ONE BAD SCENE that you totally ended the relationship. So, you overreacted. Now you need to figure out why you did that and how to calm yourself down and get perspective next time.

You had a scene go bad- it happens. It will likely happen again. Next time that happens, you simply work together to find a system of communication that everyone is happy about, forgive and move forward together.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Aileen68)

Post #: 13

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 10:26:42 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PAINTRAIN

as for someone observing... sorry thats one time no one observes... it was sexual in nature and i dont do well with an audience.

I can see how a third party observing would not be conducive to an intimate sexual scene.

You stated that your ex parted with advise to get out of the Lifestyle because you were controlling and abusive. Either these were words said in anger to hurt you, or advise offered from someone who was in an intimate relationship with you knows you well enough to offer the constructive criticsim. I've no idea.

Most practicing BDSM have some regrets, or think back on things they wish they'd done differently. You learn from your mistakes. Unfortunately, as you have stated, you have no idea exactly where the scene went wrong...so this makes it hard to learn from it. Honestly, it might not even have been anything you did. She could have experienced a flashback from a past abuse. If she was abused, and the scene triggered bad memories...you can't be at fault for it or even know that such a thing could hapen. Is this what happened? No clue. You were there and still dont know. All I can do is surmise.

What you can take away from the experience is a solid knowledge that safewords aren't a reliable safety net to fall back on. They are one tool, but never a replacement for being alert and in tune with your partners reactons. If you were relying on a safe word, it is very likely that it lulled you into a small measure of false security. Had you known then what you know now, I'm sure it is likely you might have stopped things sooner.

Quit banging your head against the wall and try to stop beating yourself up over it.

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 14

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 10:54:21 AM

collareddreams

Posts: 25
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

I agree totally...All aspects of the lifestyle should be SAFE, SANE, & CONSENSUAL- & by any means should there be any ABUSE involved what so ever!!! I am all about the "SAFE" words- I am quite the lil pain slut & allow for my limits to be pushed but I still am no where near afraid to call it when i think that i have had my fill... I have been in the lifestyle since 17- so 10 years now...Yeah I said 17- I was with a Dom 10 years older and had my first 3 munchkins with him... Tried to live in the "nilla" world when munchkin #4 came around--saw my fair share of domestic violence & have fought my past a great deal and had to overcome alot of fears-I now live POLY & couldn't ask for a better life; without Sir & my chain sister I am not sure where i would be...
~serenity

(in reply to sadomasokisti)

Post #: 15

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 11:13:19 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

What you need to do is get over the fact that you made a mistake, but get your brain around the type of mistake you made

In the best of relationships and in the best of scenes, shit happens. In your case, you played too hard and things got out of hand....yes you stopped...but you stopped "too late".

The question you need to ask yourself is how did you go farther than you should? did you miss a telltale sign of body language? Were you waiting on the safeword and not processing the rest of the scene?

No one can answer those questions but you. Ask them of yourself, answer them as honestly as you can....(making peace with the fact that you screwed up really helps in that regard), and contemplate ways to avoid making that mistake with future play partners.

Your relationship with this woman may be toast. If so, my sympathies...but again...get past it. Focus on what YOU did...and what YOU did wrong. That's how you learn not to do it again.

_____________________________

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 16

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 11:14:45 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I stopped the scene, maybe a look in her eye, or something that just told me there was a problem. Once I stopped, I leaned over her to attempt to dry the tears she now cried, and asked her what was wrong, at which time she cowered from me. Later that evening she confided in me that she forgot her safe word and signal. Both were implemented for just this reason.

PT,
You used the forbidden "a-word". Consider the definition is subject to perspective. One person's 'abuse' is another's consensual kink.

Your situation does illustrate "abuse". It was YOU who were abused. You may have been the dominant facilitator of the scene gone bad, but you weren't in charge of it. You properly placed at least some, if not all because of your inexperience, of the responsibility on the person experiencing the sensation. When it didn't work she blamed you - by definition that is mental and emotional abuse.

The lesson to be learned from this. NEVER use safe words. Take the time and have enough patience to know your partner better. Get to the point that communication is constant. Learn to read his/her body. You already exhibit that talent. You unilaterally stopped the scene because of what you were feeling. Many, under the false security of am agreed upon scene safe-word/signal, may have not.

I'll add your story to the many I have already compiled regarding the false security provided by safe-words. I'm not saying or representing that people who don't have them don't have accidents and problems, but at least in those cases the person implementing the sensation doesn't abdicate his/her responsibility to some "magic words".

What you did "wrong" was trust your partner and her experience. If anyone exhibited a naiveté regarding responsibility and should get out of the lifestyle it was her with her "six years of experience". However, maybe that is part of her submissive sensation dominant dynamic persona. Don't quit due to this bad experience.

However be careful - She is not unique.

GOOD LUCK!

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 17

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 1:34:26 PM

windchymes

Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

To me, based on what you say, it sounds like the sub likes to seek out drama, which happens a lot in BDSM-world. You say SHE initiated the rougher play and then oops, "forgot" both the safeword and the signal? Even if she legtimately forgot, she then turns the blame onto you and lays a big guilt trip on you, rather than accepting some of the responsibility. It's all big learning curve, and you both are adults. She sounds pretty immature to me.

< Message edited by windchymes -- 8/27/2007 1:36:11 PM >

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 18

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 6:13:47 PM

PAINTRAIN

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/20/2007
Status: offline

Thank you to EVERYONE who offered advise, even those who obviously could not read between the lines because they were so quick to jump to the conclusion that I fucked up. I'll add this little bit of info that was left out... if you must know... I was "fuckin" her when it went sour. Funny how a split second can change everything...
AND to the ones who came to the conclusion that I must be abusive... NEVER in our short relationship had the thought crossed my mind to raise my hand out of anger... much less to say any thing to her that was remotely in anger. I never would have. Her safety was my ultimate concern... even to the point of ignoring my own.
Though new... I am not illiterate. I do read! So I am well aware that certain things are FORBIDDEN in the lifestyle... even if the words I had chosen were not the best.
As for the questions that Celticlord asks... I have no way to answer those questions for myself or anyone else... though I have sat here many nights replaying the whole scene in my head. BELIEVE me if I could I'd have the answer and make certain it never happened again... but that is not for me to know...
Thank you all once again...

(in reply to windchymes)

Post #: 19

RE: SAFE WORDS/ SIGNALS - 8/27/2007 7:44:58 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

What are you looking for?

_____________________________

(in reply to PAINTRAIN)

Post #: 20

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