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RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 3:35:21 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan

i'm black (see my name).  my ancestors were slaves in this country.  the confederate flag symbolizes those who fought and died to preserve the institution of slavery.
the confederate flag is as offensive to me as a black man as the swastika is to a jewish person.
it's that simple.  point-blank.  the end.

They were slaves or at least oppressed and traded  by "blaakmeenn" in Africa too. Did you know that ? Does it matter ?

I think everyone is aware of that fact, and no...it doesn't matter.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 3:36:57 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Speaking as an outsider States Rights ie local political control IMO is very important, subject to the limits of what you have in the US and we in the UK dont but desperately need a written Constitution.

Anyway, States Rights in the mid 50s/early 60s re surfaced due to honourable but totally misguided attempts to integrate the public educational educational system. Not a lot to do with slavery per se.

Needless to say nothing much changed. eg I read fairly recently a black self appointed community spokesman saying that it would be better if young blacks were educated seperately.
What a larf !

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 3:43:23 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan
i'm black (see my name).  my ancestors were slaves in this country.  the confederate flag symbolizes those who fought and died to preserve the institution of slavery.
the confederate flag is as offensive to me as a black man as the swastika is to a jewish person.
it's that simple.  point-blank.  the end.

They were slaves or at least oppressed and traded  by "blaakmeenn" in Africa too. Did you know that ? Does it matter ?

I think everyone is aware of that fact, and no...it doesn't matter.

Well if white men oppressing black men is almost as serious an offense as speeding on on empty road in the middle of the night why is  black men oppressing black men that much less serious ?
Beats me.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 3:51:20 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Couldn't you just get a bottle of RC Cola with some peanuts in it and use that as a hood ornament to show your connection to the South?



dammit everyone knows it is an rc cola and a moonpie...i bet yer a dang yankee huh?

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 4:11:54 PM   
HotFaerieMama


Posts: 2617
Joined: 6/14/2007
Status: offline 		i know several people from different backgrounds and none of us find it offensive.. its a flag and its true meaning has gotten lost through the years and people try to make it out to be something it's not. i have dixie hanging up in my room most of the teachers at both high  schools display the old state flag in their classrooms and both schools are largely made up of black students and no one considers it offensive or wrong hell i know alot of black people who liked the old state flag.. they hate the new one ( which is butt ugly) but no one's the same and everyone has their own opinons  

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 4:31:30 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Sing, sing a song
Sing out loud
Sing out strong
Sing of good things, not bad
Sing of happy, not sad.

Sing, sing a song
Make it simple
To last your whole life long
Don't worry that it's not good enough
for anyone else to hear
Just sing, sing a song.

Sing, sing a song
Let the world sing along
Sing of love there could be
Sing for you and for me.

Sing, sing a song
Make it simple
To last your whole life long
Don't worry that it's not good enough
for anyone else to hear
Just sing, sing a song.

Deleted my post.....Decided to put in one of Karen Carpenter's finer works...God does she suck!!!  Huge huge donkey dicks!!!..

< Message edited by domiguy -- 9/18/2007 5:19:56 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 4:41:06 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan
i'm black (see my name).  my ancestors were slaves in this country.  the confederate flag symbolizes those who fought and died to preserve the institution of slavery.
the confederate flag is as offensive to me as a black man as the swastika is to a jewish person.
it's that simple.  point-blank.  the end.

They were slaves or at least oppressed and traded  by "blaakmeenn" in Africa too. Did you know that ? Does it matter ?

I think everyone is aware of that fact, and no...it doesn't matter.

Well if white men oppressing black men is almost as serious an offense as speeding on on empty road in the middle of the night why is  black men oppressing black men that much less serious ?
Beats me.


During the genocide of the Indian wars did you know that Indian scouts from the almost all of the  Indian tribes were used to help hunt down their own people?  It would seem that this should lessen the sting a bit, eh?

They were Jewish Nazi sympathisers...Well if they are going to assist the Nazis....Then why is anyone concerned about the Holocaust?


In the case of black owning blacks...It was a very small percent of the population...Some did it exactly in the same manner as their white counterparts...Others purchased lost family members trying to reunite their families....There is even one story where a woman "bought" back her husband and then sold him after they got into a big fight.

What point are you trying to make?  It is a small percent of slaves that were owned by those of African decent...It seems an attempt to say..."Hey, it wasn't that big of a deal..If some of "them" were doing it as well."

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 5:14:25 PM   
Satyr6406


Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

So, when a black person calls me "white boy" or says: "of course you're a racist. Look at the color of your skin!" What then? Should I NOT be offended? BULLSHIT!!!
 
If it is not right for me to treat people a certain way, based upon the color of their skin (and it isn't) then, it shouldn't be right for them to do the same thing. Case closed.
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael


How often does this really happen?  I have never had anyone who was black ever refer to me as "whiteboy"....Or  say anything like..."Look at the color of your skin, of course you are a rascist."....Maybe they were jealous because you are so dreamy?...Did you ever take that into consideration?


Actually, being the only "white" guy for a couple of block, it happens quite often. My neighbors think it's cute, when they say: "Nah, he's one of the good white boys." Like that's a fucking compliment.
 
I'm not saying it ruins my life. I am saying that it a small thing and I recognize it as such so, why is a small thing so much of an issue to other people? I repeat: because we are becoming a society of "professional victims" and whoever presents themselves as the most aggrieved appears to get to have their say.
 
To take this kind of back to the original point: The "Civil" (huh? What?) War was actually about states' rights (one of them being slavery). It was a war against the federalization of our country. Now, I don't support slavery, in ANY form but, I have flown the "Stars and Bars" (along with the original, thirteen-starred flag of the United States) as a way of saying that I support the attempt to stop the federalization.
 
So, I guess since it's a symbol, it depends on what it symbolizes to different people.
 
Rap "music" is offensive to me. It paints "white" people and "police officers" in a horrible way and suggests that we are beneath contempt and worthy of death on site ["sight", even. That' what happens when you work with webSITES, all day] (Thank you, Ice-T, you "Cop Killa", you!). I think we should put an end to rap music.
 
Ridiculous. Ain't it?
 
 
 
 
 
Peace and comfort,
 
 
 
 
 
Michael

< Message edited by Satyr6406 -- 9/18/2007 5:35:11 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,


Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 5:34:00 PM   
ChicagoSwitchMal


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline 		With all due respect to black people the civil war was about alot more than slavery although yes, that was  HUGE part of it. History's distillery has made it so that slavery was the only point. I'm not going to get into them here because whoever is interested can google search "the civil war - a southern perspective" and "the civil war - a northern perspective". But there was a lot of exploitation of southern resources by the north and fighting against it was something to be proud of.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 5:40:34 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		A symbol, any symbol, only hurts you as much as you allow it.  Symbols and language have a way of evolving into a whole different thing for later generations.  Dixie, the Stars and Bars, the Rebel flag once meant something terrible to generations of people after the Civil War and after the 60's.  It still does to many of people who are of an age to remember the 60's and stories passed from elders in their families about the Civil War.  But as time marches forward, as it ruthlessly does, later generations don't carry this same feeling about this symbol.  Same goes for the swastika and for symbols so old, we no longer recognize them.

It's the way it should be.  We can never let go of racisim or any other hateful thing if we continue to hold on to our symbols and teach our young to attach hate to them.  Move forward, don't linger in what's past.  If anything, the past should teach us what not to do and what not to be, and not be used to further our self-created human injustices.

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Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 5:42:05 PM   
dovie


Posts: 1211
Status: offline 		not addressed to you darling domiguy, you happened to be the last poster. addressed to the board.

these types of posts usually serve to bring out the best in people. the "best" is left up to interpretation. additionally, as we post, we paint a picture of ourselves based on how and what we write; a la Dorian Gray.
 
many have already pointed out the evolved symbolism of the confederate/rebel flag and its use as a tool of oppression and hate. the swastika holds the same evolved symbolism as does a KKK uniform. while it is interesting to hear the contradictory views, i invite you to ask yourselves a question. would you, wearing a confederate/rebel flag or a KKK uniform walk into an all Black venue such as a Martin Luther King Day parade? would you, wearing a swastika or a KKK uniform walk into a Jewish synagogue or meeting?  therein lies your answer. say what you will, behavior speaks to values and intentions; always.
 
disclaimer: (1) assumption is made that reader has had some educational background in History. (2) human behavior being what it is, there will be one who will answer yes to the above questions...sigh*
 
dream well,
dovie

< Message edited by dovie -- 9/18/2007 6:14:43 PM >

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gentle dove with 38's *the kind you shoot with*


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 6:11:58 PM   
Blaakmaan


Posts: 374
Joined: 5/21/2007
Status: offline 		What it means to me?

Everything is not relative!  Some things mean what they mean!

The Confederate flag is not just a piece of cloth (well, it is, but you know what I mean)!

It's a SYMBOL.  It's a symbol of the Confederacy!

The Confederacy was a collection of states that attempted to secede from the Union, and the primary purpose of that attempted secession was to preserve the institution of slavery.

Now, I don't pretend to know what the Confederate flag means to you, on your automobile or wherever, but I do know what it stands for as a historical fact!

And, as I said, it represents those who fought, and died, to maintain slavery.

That's a fact, not my belief!

I don't mean for this reply to be harsh, just definitive...

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 6:33:13 PM   
Blaakmaan


Posts: 374
Joined: 5/21/2007
Status: offline 		OK, HotFaerieMama:

Your profile says you are caucasian.

What a surprise that you and your friends don't find the Confederate offensive!

And, you really don't know what the black students think of that flag!  You just think you know!  If this were the 1950's, you'd probably be saying that your black students didn't have a problem with riding in the back of the bus.

Most black people are not, as a rule, in the habit of being candid about their feelings with whites, especially on racial issues.  Trust me!

(in reply to HotFaerieMama)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 6:38:18 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I do not consider the confederate flag as a symbol of hate or badness.  So, I see nothing wrong with it being used for general fashion.  I am extremely proud of the confederacy, what it helped build in the long term for the country and the bravery of the people who were brave.

I understand people turn symbols into what they want- but I'm sorry they didn't use it as a lesson in TOLERANCE and instead used it as a lesson in censorship.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 6:40:05 PM   
Blaakmaan


Posts: 374
Joined: 5/21/2007
Status: offline 		OK, ChicagoSwitchMal.  Let's take what you said as a given.

If Lincoln hadn't won the election of 1860, sparking southern fears that slavery would be contained or even abolished, would the southern states have attempted to seceed because of "the exploitation of southern resources by the north"?

I think not.  And I don't know of any reputable historian who thinks so, either.

And, anyway, whatever the truth of your point may be, the Confederate flag certainly doesn't stand for resistance to the exploitation of southern resources by the north, does it?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 6:47:33 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		For me, it is a symbol of a cause that people believed in enough to fight and die for - state's rights. While the issue of slavery helped bring the conflict to a bubble, even Lincoln was not fighting to free the slaves. He simply wanted to win the war and unite the country. He said as much when he said that if he could win the war by freeing all the slaves he would, and if he could win the war by freeing none of them he would.

It is a flag. There are some good things associated with it and some bad. And there is no flag in this world that does not have some bad associated with it. Some people turned the Confederate flag into a symbol of hate, the same way the Nazis did the swastika.

As far as slogans on shirts go... I would definately say there are worse things to wear. I'd much rather a daughter of mine wear a shirt with a rose and the petals made of Confederate flags than some slogan about how much of an easy lay she is.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 6:53:22 PM   
Blaakmaan


Posts: 374
Joined: 5/21/2007
Status: offline 		Wow!

What the hell is going on here?

A symbol only hurts as much as you let it?  That's the equivalent of "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me!"  What bullshit!

Everything that human beings do centers around symbols, from speech, to the red of a stop light, to the letters on a page, to the numbers we use to calculate.  Symbols are the most powerful things that human beings have!

The cross is a symbol, as is the Star of David, as is the Crescent, as are the flags of every nation.  People around the world are killing and dying because of the symbols that you seem to assert are so powerless (except to the point that we give them power).

One could just as easily argue that NOTHING has any power except the power you give it.  While that might be an interesting philosophical argument, I wouldn't take that position when a bullet was coming my way!

If you think a swastica is such a forgotten symbol (and I suppose you would say the same about the white hood and the burning cross), there are several neighborhoods (including mine) where I could suggest that you wear those symbols (or burn a cross) and find out just how much they have been forgotten...

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 6:59:28 PM   
Blaakmaan


Posts: 374
Joined: 5/21/2007
Status: offline 		As I understood it, the question that began this little debate was, is the Confederate flag offensive?

Not, is it offensive to you!

Because it's not offensive to you, doesn't mean it's not offensive!

Now, I'm not, on the other hand, saying it's offensive simply because it's offensive to me (which it is).  I'm saying it's offensive to LOTS of people!

Therefore, it's offensive.

You may not be offended by anything!  But, that doesn't mean that nothing is offensive!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 7:04:37 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		I live in a town where I have seen those hoods and crosses with my own two eyes, not so many years ago.  A town that until recently, was all white.  We're no longer all white.  We are diverse.  And we have let go of those symbols.  We haven't seen them in years.  Is it utopia?  No, it's not. 

Yes, there are plenty of symbols, numbers and letters included, as well as the cross and the star of david which still have strong feelings attached to them.  Some always will, as there are exceptions to every rule. But by carrying your torch, you're proliferating bias.  You're giving it a crutch so it can continue.  Each person is directly responsible for his own actions and reactions and even more, passing those forward.  Make a choice that removes you and yours from the equation.  Pay THAT forward.  If it's to end, you have to choose to end it and you have to take the action to end it.

If you continue to wallow in what was instead of what could be, then YOU are directly responsible for the continuation of hate.  Not the other guy, not the white guy.  You. 

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Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Heritage or Hate? - 9/18/2007 7:05:19 PM   
KaramelGoddess


Posts: 404
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan
i'm black (see my name).  my ancestors were slaves in this country.  the confederate flag symbolizes those who fought and died to preserve the institution of slavery.
the confederate flag is as offensive to me as a black man as the swastika is to a jewish person.
it's that simple.  point-blank.  the end.

They were slaves or at least oppressed and traded  by "blaakmeenn" in Africa too. Did you know that ? Does it matter ?

I think everyone is aware of that fact, and no...it doesn't matter.

Well if white men oppressing black men is almost as serious an offense as speeding on on empty road in the middle of the night why is  black men oppressing black men that much less serious ?
Beats me.


During the genocide of the Indian wars did you know that Indian scouts from the almost all of the  Indian tribes were used to help hunt down their own people?  It would seem that this should lessen the sting a bit, eh?

They were Jewish Nazi sympathisers...Well if they are going to assist the Nazis....Then why is anyone concerned about the Holocaust?


In the case of black owning blacks...It was a very small percent of the population...Some did it exactly in the same manner as their white counterparts...Others purchased lost family members trying to reunite their families....There is even one story where a woman "bought" back her husband and then sold him after they got into a big fight.

What point are you trying to make?  It is a small percent of slaves that were owned by those of African decent...It seems an attempt to say..."Hey, it wasn't that big of a deal..If some of "them" were doing it as well."


To add to this...
 
African slaves taken by African people were taken more than regularly along lines of kinship, repopulation, as war prisoners or agricultural workers.  Some were criminals or indentured servants paying off a debt.  Never were they subjected to loss of freedom due to their skin colour (as was the case in the Transatlantic slave trade) and most of the time they were welcomed into tribes and families as EQUALS.
 
~Kara - who taught history for 8 years...

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(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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