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RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/2/2005 8:17:06 PM   
TiNeedsHouseboy


Posts: 145
Joined: 4/24/2005
From: Big Apple blossom blown to The Windy City
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux
it's a serious point, and one that subs who are trying to establish a single relationship involving wife/life partner/Domina *in the same person* need to consider.


This is an intriguing concept. I fear I could be writing about it for hours and am trying desperately to contain my fingers from getting overly carried away with my answer. LOL. The Reader's Digest response is that there's no single solution that can be applied across the board to all couples. People are simply too different. The permutations and combinations of dyadic interpersonal dynamics (I'm leaving out poly notions because it would be too complex to ponder here) are unique entities.

IMO a significant factor involves how comfortable/accepting one is with one's own sexuality/libido, and the degree to which one is able to trust his/her significant other -- vanilla or kinky. To that end, if I can't share my deepest needs with my significant other, and if he can't feel the same way about me, then we clearly are not in love. When in love, I believe that we accept our partner(s), warts and all.

Naturally, I'm aware that there's a raging debate in the BDSM community over whether one can/should be in love with a slave. Suffice it to say that I endorse the "of course one can" side. Here is one of my favorite Jack Rinella articles on the subject... and I swear that I have no vested interest in Jack's website, and am not the President of his fan club:



This is not to say that allowances are not made for needs and limits. It means is that my partner trusts me, and has complete faith in the stability of our relationship. That allows him to share his darkest desires with me, knowing that he will not be given the cold shoulder or accused of being a sicko freak. If he strikes an area that's a total squick for me, I'd ponder if there was some way to accommodate the craving that he perceives as so critical -- without making me go ewwwww. If I can't, then it's racked up as a hard limit.

I admit my perspective may be more liberal, as I have a stronger "tolerance" than many people. It's likely a function of professional training plus stuff like blood/gore/guts exposure during emergency room experiences. As a result, I've found myself "consulting" for friends on every topic conceivable.

Consider the time I ended up as "middleman" during an IM. I needed professional feedback from a gastroenterologist Dom buddy, in response to questions about excretion ingestion, posed by a subby buddy. The sub viewed it as a reflection of uber submission (no element of humiliation) and wanted to know what dangers lurked, if any.

SIDEBAR: In anticipation of questions that specific fetish may raise, allow me to point out the following for anyone who's pondering such ingestions:

1) Do not do it unless in a committed, long-term, monogamous relationship, where you have no doubts about your partner's health. Make no bones about it: whether you're drinking urine or consuming feces, either is a potential way to transmit blood. Since the excretion you're ingesting is not being viewed under a microscope first, you have no way to discern if there's blood in it. In other words, it's a form of edge play.

2) Adding to the edge play notion.... In case you're wondering about the stand of my Dom buddy as a gastroenterologist, he's medically opposed to ingestion of excretions. They contain toxins. They're leaving the body because the body needs to eliminate them. It's his expert medical opinion that they were never intended to become a D/s game. Additionally, if you're on any medications, you must be very careful because you're asking the sub to consume whatever part of the drugs is excreted.

3) If you do decide to engage in such activities, especially if you decide to have your sub drinking urine in -- say -- a restaurant, as if he's sipping tea, do not use the restaurant's dishware as urine containers. There's nothing that causes people's hackles to rise faster on the DOMestic threads than when someone proudly posts that his dominant went into a restaurant bathroom and filled a cup or glass with urine. The restaurant's dishwashing equipment is not equipped for that level of sterilization (please do not give me the standard swill about urine being sterile when we're discussing blood products); the waitstaff/bus boys/dishwashers never agreed to touch urine-ridden drinkware; no one in the restaurant agreed to allow you to impose your scene onto them. In other words, that level of public involvement is a major ewwwww and violates SSC.

Getting back to the topic at hand.... Akasha's point about pro-Dommes having clients with more extreme needs, with likely dysfunctional libidinal relationships, is a point well taken. Such clients would be well served to seek out a kink-aware psychotherapist. All too often, however, they think the solution lies in a dungeon.

A common obstruction faced by psychotherapists is people looking for Band-Aids for boo-boos or wishful magic wands. Their clients tend to seek easy outs, not the hard work it takes to dig up impediments to happiness, uncovering paths away from misery and into satisfaction.

~ Ti ~

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/2/2005 9:19:07 PM   
Euryanx


Posts: 96
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

For some subs, it might be better to have a D/s relationship with a Domina for one's BDSM needs, AND a life partner/wife/hubby for one's vanilla needs. Trying to find it all in the same relationship with the same person can be a dicey thing.




Pollux, you make some great points. You've given me some real food for thought. I've been trying to find it all in one package, that's
one of the reasons why i came here. But maybe it's not possible. Not sure yet.

I had a nice vanilla woman, who loved me dearly, and whom I loved dearly. I fear i blew the relationship trying to bring some very
low grade BDSM into the relationship. Just the very thought of what i was suggesting turned her off completely and utterly destroyed
what was a very beautiful relationship. Some vanilla women just do NOT want to go there - and just the suggestion of it is so
revolting to them it totally changes their viewpoint of you.

It's tempting to consider having two relationships... the wife and the Mistress... but that smacks of dishonesty and cheating and
everything i want to avoid. Makes you wonder how to reconcile all of this...

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/2/2005 9:50:05 PM   
SadisticPrincess


Posts: 87
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

And I think for a sub male who is faced with serious ethical choices about what he does with his submissive "wiring", it's crucially important to consider what she's saying.


Now this is an intriguing idea that I wish you would elaborate on! What kind of ethical choices are we talking about here?

_____________________________

Ms Francine
Headmistress, Michigan Club Fem

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/2/2005 10:33:34 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx
I had a nice vanilla woman, who loved me dearly, and whom I loved dearly. I fear i blew the relationship trying to bring some very
low grade BDSM into the relationship. Just the very thought of what i was suggesting turned her off completely and utterly destroyed
what was a very beautiful relationship. Some vanilla women just do NOT want to go there - and just the suggestion of it is so
revolting to them it totally changes their viewpoint of you.

It's tempting to consider having two relationships... the wife and the Mistress... but that smacks of dishonesty and cheating and
everything i want to avoid. Makes you wonder how to reconcile all of this...
Not only does it smack of dishonesty, but the same vanilla woman who would not touch BDSM would probably cutt out your balls if she discovers you've been doing something soooo intense/intimate with another woman.
I wonder though how kinky men fall in love with straight laced, wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole kind of woman?
I could fall in love with a vanilla man, but not an ultraconservative uptight, narrow minded one. I think that if someone is easygoing, doesn't take self too seriously, they'd be open to A LOT when in love.. M


_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to Euryanx)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 9:12:19 AM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess

quote:

And I think for a sub male who is faced with serious ethical choices about what he does with his submissive "wiring", it's crucially important to consider what she's saying.


Now this is an intriguing idea that I wish you would elaborate on! What kind of ethical choices are we talking about here?


Well, how much time do you have? The thing is fraught with ethical problems.

It starts with issues relating to the sub's acceptance of his own kink. Does he deny/repress it, or does he accept it? If he denies/represses it, he has to be prepared for the thing to work itself out unconsciously and to accept the consequences of that. If he accepts it, what does he do it about it? Is he going to live it out thru D/s play (or a D/s relationship), or is he going to try to sublimate it through service work, self-sacrifice, or some sort of religious/spiritual path?

Is he in a relationship currently? If he is, can the current relationship be a container for his submissive/kinky side? If he thinks it can, how does he introduce it? How much does he reveal? Is he prepared for the changes that it might introduce into the relationship, or the possible change in his partner's view of him? If the relationship can't be a container, *then* what does he do? Does he seek a relationship outside his vanilla one? If he does, does he seek contact with a pro, or a lifestyler? If he goes outside the relationship, does he tell his current partner? Can his relationship survive that kind of knowledge? If he doesn't tell her, can he live with that moral/ethical choice? Is not telling her a decision he's making from the perspective of defending what's valuable in the relationship, or is he simply being cowardly?

If he's not in a relationship, is he prepared to have this experience part of his permanent romantic/sexual/intimate record? Is it something he would share with a future partner (possibly, assuming the D/s relationship didn't work out long-term), or would he keep it secret? Does he restrict his search for future partners to the kinky scene or does he look for a wilder or more open-minded vanilla woman? For a potential partner, how much is her possible unwillingness to play a deal-breaker? Will a vanilla partner who "play-acts" the part suffice or does he need someone with more intense or genuine dominant chemistry? How much compromise on this is possible, given all the other things people need in a relationship?

If he decides to seek a relationship with a Dominant, who does he see? What desires/needs does he communicate? What's appealing to him? What are his limits? How does he provide for his own health & safety? What can he really offer a potential kinky partner? If he's got something to offer, how can he present himself so that he's viewed as an appealing partner? How & where does he carry out his search? What sort of support system is he going to need? Does he need to explore making some kinky friends he can turn to for advice & support, or are there some vanilla friends who can handle this? Is he prepared for the consequences that can result, either in terms of the potential health risks, or the risks to his relationships and his vanilla life? What precautions should he take and what safeguards does he need to put in place to protect those parts of his vanilla life that might be at risk?

My god, it's an ethical dilemma of colossal proportions, if you take it seriously, and I feel like I've barely scratched the surface.

Which one(s) would you like me to elaborate on? ;)

(in reply to SadisticPrincess)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 9:17:11 AM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TiNeedsHouseboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux
it's a serious point, and one that subs who are trying to establish a single relationship involving wife/life partner/Domina *in the same person* need to consider.


This is an intriguing concept. I fear I could be writing about it for hours and am trying desperately to contain my fingers from getting overly carried away with my answer. LOL. The Reader's Digest response is that there's no single solution that can be applied across the board to all couples. People are simply too different. The permutations and combinations of dyadic interpersonal dynamics (I'm leaving out poly notions because it would be too complex to ponder here) are unique entities.

IMO a significant factor involves how comfortable/accepting one is with one's own sexuality/libido, and the degree to which one is able to trust his/her significant other -- vanilla or kinky. To that end, if I can't share my deepest needs with my significant other, and if he can't feel the same way about me, then we clearly are not in love. When in love, I believe that we accept our partner(s), warts and all.

...

A common obstruction faced by psychotherapists is people looking for Band-Aids for boo-boos or wishful magic wands. Their clients tend to seek easy outs, not the hard work it takes to dig up impediments to happiness, uncovering paths away from misery and into satisfaction.

~ Ti ~


All very good points, Ti. I don't disagree with any of them. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)

(in reply to TiNeedsHouseboy)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 9:23:19 AM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Euryanx

I had a nice vanilla woman, who loved me dearly, and whom I loved dearly. I fear i blew the relationship trying to bring some very
low grade BDSM into the relationship. Just the very thought of what i was suggesting turned her off completely and utterly destroyed
what was a very beautiful relationship. Some vanilla women just do NOT want to go there - and just the suggestion of it is so
revolting to them it totally changes their viewpoint of you.


I had an experience similar to that, too. In my case, I don't think it destroyed the relationship, but it sure put some holes in it. I don't think it's an uncommon experience.

quote:


It's tempting to consider having two relationships... the wife and the Mistress... but that smacks of dishonesty and cheating and
everything i want to avoid. Makes you wonder how to reconcile all of this...


It can (smack of dishonesty and cheating) but it doesn't have to. It depends on how honest you are with yourself (and your partner) about why you're seeking to go outside your relationship, and what it is you're really trying to protect.

I think it's possible for a man (or woman) to seek a D/s relationship apart from the marriage, and do this with integrity. I don't know that the odds favor that happening very frequently, but I think it's possible for some people.

(in reply to Euryanx)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 9:24:09 AM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I wonder though how kinky men fall in love with straight laced, wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole kind of woman?



Easy. They're as appalled at their own kink as their partners are.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 9:51:11 AM   
SadisticPrincess


Posts: 87
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you for your elaboration! It's your use of the word ETHICAL that threw me off. I consulted my trusty online dictionary and got these two definitions of the word: 2 : involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval; 3 : conforming to accepted professional standards of conduct

Are you implying (or actually saying) that you condsider bdsm practices wrong, immoral, shady, sinful? If that is the case, if that is the issue that you are struggling with, then we are into a completely different topic. {THE DISCLAIMER: and I can grok that this might just be a discussion topic for you, I am not sniping or flaming}

It's pretty obvious that I don't think my kink is a bad thing. I am a consensual sadist, and a deeply caring person. I have been kinky since childhood, I just didn't know there was a name for how I felt and what I was doing. At the same time, I admit to having some seriously nasty fantasies. They are going to stay fantasies.

There is a world of kink out there, and some of it I find personally icky. Okay, there are some things that just turn my stomach. Are they dangerous things? NO. Do I hate the folks that indulge, or look down on them? NO. I just don't go to those kinds of parties. :) I am going to go out on a limb here and say that my level of tolerance is unusually high. I don't expect that everyone in the scene is operating at the same level of sophistication, experience, tolerance, acceptance, however you want to describe it. There are absolutely going to be people out there who will be openly disgusted at things that they don't like, and you might not know about their area of ICK until it's too late. It's a chance we all take, I think. I know I have been surprised in a bad way.

This brings me back to my talk of limits----I am going to know pretty quickly in a d/s or s/m relationship what the other person is into, and whether we mesh. If my partner is into a specific *act* that I won't provide, well, there are plenty of friends out there who will do that particular thing. For me, that's not a problem.

Are we having parallel conversations here? Even if we are, thanks for bringing up some excellent ideas!

_____________________________

Ms Francine
Headmistress, Michigan Club Fem

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 9:56:14 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I wonder though how kinky men fall in love with straight laced, wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole kind of woman?



Easy. They're as appalled at their own kink as their partners are.


I think the examples you give of submissive men that would not be wise to bring up their kinks to their loving, vanilla partners and have it work are men who are emotionally dysfunctional to begin with, and have issues far deeper than just their desire for kink. To say they should explore their dark, kinky fantasies with a pro perhaps, and have a normal relationship with a vanilla woman is not relevant, because they're probably not functional enough to have a relationship with a woman anyway.

The subs that are self aware, understand their kink, understand limits and have functional relationships are able to have loving relationship with the same woman they share their kink with, and are not better off seeking a pro on the side as your friend suggested.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 10:35:59 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Well, the danger in playing devil's advocate is that people start to think you're the devil, and not just the advocate.


The problem here, I believe, is that you didn't ever mention (until the last few posts) that you don't agree fully with what Mme LeVay posted - so yeah, we didn't see you as playing devil's advocate because you didn't tell us that you were. I thought that you were trying to argue that she is totally correct and it seems that I'm not the only one.

In response to later posts - I'm with Akasha on the whole "they're probably not functional enough to have a relationship with a woman anyway" thing. I've met plenty that had the "omg way out there fetishes" that were too far for me - but they are the ones like castration, canabalism, severe mutilation of parts other than the genitals - and somehow, I doubt that the guys who came up to me with those are mentally stable to begin with based on how they approached me with their fantasy. Those kinds of guys are not going to be able to function in a normal relationship with anyone, IMO - vanilla or kinky.

< Message edited by SweetDommes -- 8/3/2005 10:44:03 AM >

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 11:09:17 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I wonder though how kinky men fall in love with straight laced, wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole kind of woman?



Easy. They're as appalled at their own kink as their partners are.


God damn it, but you are one of the most breezily insightful people I have ever read.

That is, of course, why I can not dominate my romantic partner. It is a twist on the old Groucho Marx line, I would never belong to a club that would have me as a member. I can not reconcile the idea of my own domination as a positive force with the sterotype of abuse that it conjures up, so I have to sepatate the dom from the husband/boyfriend/lover.

I think I have it easy though, I can't imagine the psychological trouble a male sub must face...

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 11:11:28 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

God damn it, but you are one of the most breezily insightful people I have ever read.

That is, of course, why I can not dominate my romantic partner. It is a twist on the old Groucho Marx line, I would never belong to a club that would have me as a member. I can not reconcile the idea of my own domination as a positive force with the sterotype of abuse that it conjures up, so I have to sepatate the dom from the husband/boyfriend/lover.

I think I have it easy though, I can't imagine the psychological trouble a male sub must face...

Taggard

I'm trying to decide if you are serious or just trying to encourage him ...

In either case, however, I have absolutely no problems reconciling my need to dominate and on occation cause pain with a loving girlfriend/wife role.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 11:17:43 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes


quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

God damn it, but you are one of the most breezily insightful people I have ever read.

That is, of course, why I can not dominate my romantic partner. It is a twist on the old Groucho Marx line, I would never belong to a club that would have me as a member. I can not reconcile the idea of my own domination as a positive force with the sterotype of abuse that it conjures up, so I have to sepatate the dom from the husband/boyfriend/lover.

I think I have it easy though, I can't imagine the psychological trouble a male sub must face...

Taggard

I'm trying to decide if you are serious or just trying to encourage him ...

In either case, however, I have absolutely no problems reconciling my need to dominate and on occation cause pain with a loving girlfriend/wife role.



He is either being sarcastic, or I feel extremely sorry for him. There must be a lot of self loathing that goes along with such an inability to be one's true self with the person they consider their soulmate and best friend. It's as if his 'icky side' must only be shared with women who, on an intimacy level, are 'less than'? Both women in his life are losing out.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to SweetDommes)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 1:07:32 PM   
alwaysUnderYou


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes


quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

God damn it, but you are one of the most breezily insightful people I have ever read.

That is, of course, why I can not dominate my romantic partner. It is a twist on the old Groucho Marx line, I would never belong to a club that would have me as a member. I can not reconcile the idea of my own domination as a positive force with the sterotype of abuse that it conjures up, so I have to sepatate the dom from the husband/boyfriend/lover.

I think I have it easy though, I can't imagine the psychological trouble a male sub must face...

Taggard

I'm trying to decide if you are serious or just trying to encourage him ...

In either case, however, I have absolutely no problems reconciling my need to dominate and on occation cause pain with a loving girlfriend/wife role.



He is either being sarcastic, or I feel extremely sorry for him. There must be a lot of self loathing that goes along with such an inability to be one's true self with the person they consider their soulmate and best friend. It's as if his 'icky side' must only be shared with women who, on an intimacy level, are 'less than'? Both women in his life are losing out.

Akasha


If his tastes in D/s run strongly towards humiliation, then I could see how this might cause some internal conflict. In any case, unfortunate that he couldn't resolve it.

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 1:10:12 PM   
Cinnakitten


Posts: 1
Joined: 7/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: QueenRah

Oh...so it's *not* just me. ;) (The "Do me-Do me" laundry lists. The view that I'm just a vicious Bitch in tight, uncomfortable clothes and the stance that my interests are of no concern to the so-called "submissives."

EXACTLY!! I thought it was just me too. Apparently, I was wrong. Thank gawd.

(in reply to QueenRah)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 2:52:17 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
I wonder though how kinky men fall in love with straight laced, wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole kind of woman?

Easy. They're as appalled at their own kink as their partners are.

I think the examples you give of submissive men that would not be wise to bring up their kinks to their loving, vanilla partners and have it work are men who are emotionally dysfunctional to begin with, and have issues far deeper than just their desire for kink. To say they should explore their dark, kinky fantasies with a pro perhaps, and have a normal relationship with a vanilla woman is not relevant, because they're probably not functional enough to have a relationship with a woman anyway.
Akasha
My sentiments exactly! I feel there is no need to be in a relationship that leaves me so incomplete, and makes me feel so dishonest I would be appalled at mine or his thoughts/feelings.

When I've met men who have an enormous conflict between who they are and what they consider to be acceptable/normal behavior, I've always made a decision not to go there at all.
This is unfortunately not an uncommon sentiment among many men who approach me (especially being a Domina of color because they have fantasies of being with a woman like me), but they suggest we do it in an inconspicuous fashion; again, that is the type of person I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, and if I think the request comes from confusion and not contempt, I encourage them to get psychological help (or at least go to a pro). M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 8/3/2005 3:37:13 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 6:09:37 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess

Thank you for your elaboration! It's your use of the word ETHICAL that threw me off. I consulted my trusty online dictionary and got these two definitions of the word: 2 : involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval; 3 : conforming to accepted professional standards of conduct

Are you implying (or actually saying) that you condsider bdsm practices wrong, immoral, shady, sinful? If that is the case, if that is the issue that you are struggling with, then we are into a completely different topic. {THE DISCLAIMER: and I can grok that this might just be a discussion topic for you, I am not sniping or flaming}


No, not if we're talking about SSC. I'm not sure I had the dictionary use of ethics 100% right, so, sorry if I threw you off there. When I'm talking about ethics I'm talking about the issue of what someone *does* about something.

Morality = is this thing right or wrong (for me)?

Ethics = what do I *do* about it?

quote:

Are we having parallel conversations here? Even if we are, thanks for bringing up some excellent ideas!


Kinda, but it's all good :)

(in reply to SadisticPrincess)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 6:15:11 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think the examples you give of submissive men that would not be wise to bring up their kinks to their loving, vanilla partners and have it work are men who are emotionally dysfunctional to begin with, and have issues far deeper than just their desire for kink. To say they should explore their dark, kinky fantasies with a pro perhaps, and have a normal relationship with a vanilla woman is not relevant, because they're probably not functional enough to have a relationship with a woman anyway.

The subs that are self aware, understand their kink, understand limits and have functional relationships are able to have loving relationship with the same woman they share their kink with, and are not better off seeking a pro on the side as your friend suggested.

Akasha


The problem with this view -- and it's fine as far as it goes -- is it divides the sub world into dysfunctional perverts and -- let's call 'em "mature", for lack of a better word -- submissive men. Maybe there's a better word. But they're subs operating at a pretty high level of emotional development and self actualization. What about all the guys in between those two extremes? Or guys who simply made a bad decision 20 years ago and are now living with the adult consequences?

There's a class of sub who's into stuff that most here seem to think crosses some kind of line. Not kink anymore, but symptomatic of some kind of pathology. I'm not sure how easy it is to define that line but it seems to be kind of an "I know it when I see it" kind of thing. You say, these guys can't maintain a relationship anyway, so the advice is N/A. I don't think MLV had that type of person in mind when she made her original reply, but ok, for the sake of argument, fine.

How about another class of sub that my friend might have had in mind? He's maybe not so self-aware, maybe doesn't understand his kink fully (who does, btw?)...but he *does* have a functional relationship. Maybe he's married, got a couple of kids, a mortgage, maybe achieved some success & status in his career and some standing in his community. Maybe he's married to a very nice vanilla lady. He also has an intense desire to experience __. Now, is __ kinky and dark? To the people here, maybe not so much. But to him it is, and to his wife it would be pretty black too. Now, maybe he's tried to introduce some femdom elements to the bedroom -- gently -- on a couple of occasions, but hasn't really gotten very far with that. Actually, he's gotten nowhere with it. Of course, he's attentive to her needs, and responsible, and faithful, and all of those things. He loves her. She loves him. They've created something together, and it's worth preserving. But just this *one* thing...nah, she's just not into that.

This guy's got a problem now, doesn't he?

It's great that the ladies here are so gloriously kinky and self-aware and self-possessed and thank GOD for each and every one of you because you are a redeeming and healing force in the world. Really, I believe that. Believe it to my core. But I wonder what kind of parallel universe you are living in where lovers everywhere are as accepting of kink as you are? Or where everyone knows when they are young and foolish and get into their relationships that if their partner won't do __ then big problems are going to develop? Or where as young people they possessed the necessary self-awareness to say to themselves, "Clearly I'm a self-identified submissive man, and therefore I must seek out a self-identified dominant woman, and that if I fall in love with and marry a vanilla woman I will be miserable."

When I was younger I had this idealized view of love -- it was this magical state of unconditional acceptance, complete and total support, openness, honesty, fidelity, tolerance, patience, kindness, and, of course, pornographic sex. I think real love is a lot messier than that. Loving relationships only work if there's compromise. And, they aren't perfect. Lovers aren't always truthful and open with each other. Lovers keep secrets from each other. Lovers sometimes hide their true selves from each other. Lovers aren't always completely faithful. Lovers say "ewww" and "ick" and "hell no, I won't do that I don't care how much you want it, and can you please remember to pick up little Billy at 3?". The breakdown of any of those perfected qualities doesn't mean (IMO) that love isn't still present, or that a relationship where the two people haven't been completely honest, or they have some inhibition about sharing some secret side of themselves somehow means they aren't really in love, or aren't in a "functional relationship".

There's nothing perfected in the world, least of all love. It's all a big compromise. There's nothing even remotely ideal about it.

(p.s. Ti -- oops, I guess there *is* something in your post I disagree with ;)

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Femdoms can't find a decent male partner - 8/3/2005 6:24:35 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

quote:

Well, the danger in playing devil's advocate is that people start to think you're the devil, and not just the advocate.


The problem here, I believe, is that you didn't ever mention (until the last few posts) that you don't agree fully with what Mme LeVay posted - so yeah, we didn't see you as playing devil's advocate because you didn't tell us that you were. I thought that you were trying to argue that she is totally correct and it seems that I'm not the only one.


Well, I went back and read what I originally wrote and you know, you're right. I stopped short of agreeing with her completely, but it did come off kind of strong. I think I said something like "more and more I'm convinced she's right". What I should've said was, "more and more I think she has a valid point."

There's almost nothing I think is valid for everybody, all the time, and I probably ought to have a disclaimer like that attached to everything I write.


(in reply to SweetDommes)
Profile   Post #: 200
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