RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare

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DarkDaddyZ -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 10:25:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty ok so a few Dominants have brought that up...that they themselves feel a need to "give" aftercare (i say give, because thats how i see it, but it may be more of a sharring than a giving and taking, i'm not sure)....what happens when the Dom needs it and the sub just leaves? are Doms allowed to throw hissy fits or cry? lol...not trying to be a smart ass, i genuinely don't know what they do....never been in that position The first time I did something pretty dark (rape and messy play). My slave at the time and I cuddled had a great time but she had to go home to her children. During her time heading home and my time alone we both really were coming down hard to the point that even though she waited a hour to leave that she had to pull off the side of the road on I-85 because she was still high and coming down on what we did. I too decided to write in my journal and found myself too high and needing some affection. I realized that any old affection wouldn't do that I need affection from her. I didn't see her again until 2 days later and that day was all about after care. It was scary feeling but also one of the best feelings of my life. Z-

luckyslaveboync -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 10:39:26 AM)
Aftercare is always nice and lucky likes it, of course, especially when lucky's Owner confirms that She was pleased. Pleasing Madam is the main thing for lucky, just as pleasing their Mistress is the main reward for any true sub. However, over time the relationship deepens and lucky knows Madam is pleased even when She does not say so. lucky now fully understands that if it was not something Madam wanted and liked, She would not have asked for it. All this leads to the point that lucky has learned aftercare really is not necessary and that it is a deeper form of submission that lucky's Owner feels free to take lucky's service for granted, even when lucky is being used in things which are extremely humiliating to lucky. It makes lucky happy that this sub's submission can be taken for granted, and it makes lucky happy that Madam can enjoy Her control without having to do anything other than say what She wishes.

Aswad -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 11:36:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty [..]its not how how you truly feel about them.. Depends. Humiliation? It better be. Degradation? It might be. Probably not. quote: humiliation is by definition to be made humble and humble means to not feel better or more important than others so basically humiliation is being made to feel my place Humiliation, for me, is just that: being taken to one's station, explicitly. quote: and after all that degredation is being made to feel less than my place... Degradation, for me, is to be taken lower. Not necessarily lower than your station, however, just lower than you're at. It could be lower, but it could also be higher. It usually means being taken below your station. In my case, I use it to refer to being taken to the depths of one's station, i.e. in the range of one's station, but the lower part of the range. quote: [...] would make me feel alone and worthless Why alone? quote: which leads me to aftecare Essential bonding experience, to be sure. quote: Leaving out the physical interaction, would you find after care necessary in example 1? People respond differently, so wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask whether aftercare is necessary after humiliation? If so, then not unless it puts her in too deep. We haven't been needing or using aftercare after humiliation, so far. If using those exact words, however, then that'd push some buttons that I haven't started rewiring yet, so most definitely. quote: what about example 2? In the specific example, yes, definitely. She is not worthless, knows it, and doesn't (at least at the moment; people change, of course) get off on being told so, either. When we were exploring early on, and quite irresponsibly, I have a vague recollection of being punched and thrown elsewhere when I tried that. I would also hazard a guess that men and women respond differently to being called worthless in such a context. quote: what kind? Tacit knowledge is hard to put into words, and it depends on the person. quote: further thoughts on aftercare after humiliation or degredation in a scene or play? I prefer to use it in keeping someone within the range of their station, not taking them outside that range. Otherwise, it either tends to become more venerally focused for me, or it doesn't mesh with what I'm actually thinking to the point that it feels like play-acting or causes a temporary dissonance. Either way, I'd be as likely to require aftercare for myself as she would be, which is sort of counterproductive in what I use it for. If the other party has a venerifocal (yes, I made that word up, see above) mode of their own, and likes using degradation to go there, then that's a different matter, and I'd like to try that. Also, if the other party enjoys temporarily internalizing the degradation, I'd consider doing it if they requested it. If they are looking to internalize it on a permanent basis, I'm happy to adjust their station further down, i.e. "debasement". Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 11:37:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe Even if you have to debase YOURSELF to make that happen. Why would you want to debase yourself, unless you're a slave at heart? Health, al-Aswad.

chellekitty -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 11:53:46 AM)
sometimes you over analyze everything... to your first response...yes, thats what i was talking about, read the whole thing, and read the post i linked to that i was responding to.... further on, alone, because i would loose the spiritual connection that i feel durring a scene... and later on....i didn't want to know about in general, i asked about in general later, i asked about that specific example because i wanted to know about that specific example.... that being said, thanks for your responses....and can you elaborate further on debasement? chelle

CreativeDominant -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 12:26:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty ok so a few Dominants have brought that up...that they themselves feel a need to "give" aftercare (i say give, because thats how i see it, but it may be more of a sharring than a giving and taking, i'm not sure)....what happens when the Dom needs it and the sub just leaves? are Doms allowed to throw hissy fits or cry? lol...not trying to be a smart ass, i genuinely don't know what they do....never been in that position Can't speak for other dominants...I need the aftercare because it gives me a chance to reconnect to the caring dominant inside that vicious sadistic S.O.B. who just got through with the scene. It also helps to know that the person you were a vicious, sadistic S.O.B. to appreciates it and appreciates you and is not feeling resentful, angry or vindictive. It is no guarantee...I have seen that...but it does help reconnect the ----------------"softer(?)" ties. Given that, then depending on the scene and who it is with...especially one in which humiliation is going to be involved...I won't play with someone who does not want aftercare from me and doesn't care to give me any.

Pyrrsefanie -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 2:13:56 PM)
Ooh, this is a good topic. <3 I believe in some degree of aftercare after ALL kinds of scenes, whether humiliating/degrading or not. I've found that submission can have very deep emotional effects on a person and it's important to look for and address them as they show up. The only scenes that really scare me, in fact, are the ones that would extend a few minutes past the climax (no pun intended), i.e. my Master has spent the past two hours degrading me to my very core and then to keep with the spirit of the scene, throws me back onto the bed when he's done with me and leaves without a word. Yes, he'd come back in a couple minutes later for the aftercare and officially end the scene, but it's those two minutes of uncertainty and vulnerability that really get to me. The scene that most sticks out in my mind where aftercare was absolutely necessary and given happened towards the beginning of my Master's and my relationship. He had me collared and leashed to his chair, not allowing me to make eye contact, speak, or change position from being on all fours. The things he said to me would fall under the category of degradation more than humiliation, I think -- telling me that I was nothing to him but a warm hole and that I would never rise above being his filthy pet, etc. etc. Somewhere along the line I couldn't take anymore, buried my face into the rug, and started sobbing (I was too shaken up to even safeword). After a couple of minutes of me crying he knew that this was NOT just play, and immediately proceeded to hold me and kiss me and tell me that it was okay, that it was just a scene and that I was so much more to him than an animal. I can't imagine being able to recover from that scene as quickly as I did if he had not taken care of me afterwards. It allayed my fears that he might really think that little of me both in the short and long-term. It's those little things that add up -- have a couple of scenes with sub-par or absolutely no aftercare, and the worries that were left to blossom in the back of your mind will eventually meld together and explode. Maybe not right away, but it's a freaking time bomb just waiting to go BLAZAAAAAAMHkdflhakhdflbrainsplatterasplode. And that is what I did on my summer vacation.

AFlyInYourWeb -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 3:28:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez I am big into humiliation and degradation and also I just loved your personal definitions on the difference between the two. I think I will be stealing them. ;) For aftercare specifically done in the humiliation or degradation I have found basically in the beginning of a relationship.... When in a relationship after awhile though I rarely need any serious aftercare in play, a simple smile and hug will do. Agreed. I have learned to trust the fact that the Domme's motives are mutual fun and excitement, training exercises, acts of passion, or all of the above. If I don't believe that about a particular Domme, why am I with her at all?

BondageTopJere -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 3:34:40 PM)
To be honest I would need aftercare after a serious humliation or degradation scene [:D]. Doing something like that would require reaching down into a deep, dark and primeval emotional place; I highly doubt I could simply "act" something like that out, I have problems calling a women a slut or whore when she does want me to say it her normally. Coming back up after that would defintiely require cuddle and hugging time, it would take me a long time to come back to an even keel by myself otherwise.

Aswad -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/24/2007 9:54:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty sometimes you over analyze everything... *Some* times? [:D] quote: further on, alone, because i would loose the spiritual connection that i feel durring a scene... Interesting. Care to elaborate? quote: and later on....i didn't want to know about in general, i asked about in general later, i asked about that specific example because i wanted to know about that specific example.... And I addressed both. quote: can you elaborate further on debasement? Using your terms, it is, approximately, permanent degradation ... becoming less than you are. Though I occasionally lapse and use the term to denote severe temporary degradation. Edit: Etym.: adding impurities to a noble metal, lowering its value. Cf. cutting drugs. Health, al-Aswad.

chellekitty -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/25/2007 7:06:56 AM)
grrrrr much of a scene to me, when doing it with the right person is not about sensory input, but about the spiritual connection i feel with the person...when the scene is purely sensory input you will find me saying "red" faster than a penguin sliding down a track of greased owl shit (i dunno where that came from i just made it up)....and when a scene becomes degrading because it has put me at a place that is lower than i truely am, i withdraw and am no longer receptive to that spiritual connection, i will also at that point become non responsive and not say a safe word no matter what you do to me...you could cut off a limb and i will let you...because, with the word you provided, degredation in my mind is equal to debasement, and there are no stepping stones....it is either human or not human and not human is not worthy of living....i don't have the best mental health past...so i know my limits...i don't play with things like that...they are serious...deadly serious.... eyeroll thanks for the elaboration.. chelle

chellekitty -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/25/2007 3:59:59 PM)
i was thinking about something i didn't clarify, on the way home from class....what makes it not degredation for me is the useage of personal possessive pronouns...specifically My...because the word "My" places a positve worth on whatever follows it

DominaSmartass -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/25/2007 10:11:12 PM)
Someone may have already covered this, I haven't gotten to all the posts yet. But...I've heard of people who have been known to say that they do not engage in aftercare in this sort of play because it ruins it for them. For example, if they both get off on deep degredation (you're worthless, you're a piece of shit, etc.) then why would they want to un-do all of the hard work they just did getting to the point where they both believe what has been said and done? If aftercare is to "rebuild" the sub's ego but you just spent hours demolishing it, again, what's the point? Now, I don't necessarily agree with this - I tend to think that it's best if everyone knows they are cared for and all of those lovey dovey feelings afterwards, but I can certainly understand the point. Granted this is only ok if both people ultimately want/enjoy the slave being in a state of lowered self esteem or whatever may result (a true emotional masochist maybe?) I couldn't play with a sub who did because that's beyond my comfort level. As a top in a degredation scene I would need to make sure they know the scene is over as much as the would, maybe more... Just curious on anyone's opinion here? Anyone out there from this camp?

toservez -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/26/2007 7:18:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass Someone may have already covered this, I haven't gotten to all the posts yet. But...I've heard of people who have been known to say that they do not engage in aftercare in this sort of play because it ruins it for them. For example, if they both get off on deep degredation (you're worthless, you're a piece of shit, etc.) then why would they want to un-do all of the hard work they just did getting to the point where they both believe what has been said and done? If aftercare is to "rebuild" the sub's ego but you just spent hours demolishing it, again, what's the point? Now, I don't necessarily agree with this - I tend to think that it's best if everyone knows they are cared for and all of those lovey dovey feelings afterwards, but I can certainly understand the point. Granted this is only ok if both people ultimately want/enjoy the slave being in a state of lowered self esteem or whatever may result (a true emotional masochist maybe?) I couldn't play with a sub who did because that's beyond my comfort level. As a top in a degredation scene I would need to make sure they know the scene is over as much as the would, maybe more... Just curious on anyone's opinion here? Anyone out there from this camp? Depends on my relationship, in the beginning of one I will need more aftercare from doing a degradation or humiliation thing but as I get to know, trust and love more the less and less I need. I am not one to say aftercare ruins it but certainly too much of an effort or show after something is done is not welcomed because part of doing those things is a mental aspect that I do not want to let go of. That aspect though is not an attack on my self esteem or think my Master truly believes everything he says or I am only good for type of thoughts. The aspect I want to hold onto is the feeling of the power he just demonstrated over me. That he can and will do this or make me react this way because he can or desires to. Too much aftercare, which at times can also be very little, does destroy the atmosphere. Part of all types of play is not the live in the moment stuff but the enjoyment of it lingering. I have never run into a person yet that can damage my self esteem, play with it sure but damage would make me a willing victim and so far cannot see myself becoming one.

Aswad -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/26/2007 4:46:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chellekitty much of a scene to me, when doing it with the right person is not about sensory input, but about the spiritual connection i feel with the person... Makes sense. quote: [...]when a scene becomes degrading because it has put me at a place that is lower than i truely am, i withdraw and am no longer receptive to that spiritual connection[...] I get that. I would assume many of those who do that kind of thing do so by clinging to that connection as a lifeline, rather than withdrawing it, but trust can be a difficult beast, and some events make it hard to hold on that far from land, especially when it seems like the lifeline has cut loose and is drifting in the currents. Then one can end up internalizing the status of drowning instead. Would that be about right, or is this just me? quote: degredation in my mind is equal to debasement, and there are no stepping stones... I think I get how that works, but I'm at a loss in coherently expressing the process I'm guessing takes place to result in that. For myself, I'd always keep things in the range of a person's station in my eyes, but try to be aware of how they perceive their own station as well. If I go lower than their perception, there's been a miscommunication along the way. Acting on a change in station isn't the best way to announce one to someone, I think. [qute] and not human is not worthy of living Is it the sense of loss, or how far you are lowered, or where that ends up taking you to? I had always figured this part is what would be hardest (at least for me, without the wiring for that) for those people that seek slavery instead of submission, that instrinsic loss of a vital part of being human, and of what one has held to be true (if one has), or at least told to be true. Submitting to a great depth would seem easier to me than that. Which is whence my respect and appreciation for those seeking slavery derives, with some flip-sides to that coin. For submissives, it stems from their humanity and intrinsic value. quote: thanks for the elaboration.. Nah, thank you for yours. I know what's going on in my head. It's harder to figure out the various things going on in those heads that are wired differently from my own, and it's exactly those those heads I need to understand to take care of partners or property. P.S.: Regarding the possessive pronouns, might that not be a instance of defining your own worth via others, rather than yourself? It seems like you're saying it's a matter of it not being okay for you to perceive yourself at a certain station, unless being at it gives you value to someone else. Would that be an accurate interpretation? Care to elaborate? Health, al-Aswad.

chellekitty -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/26/2007 6:25:02 PM)
no, you're completely off base, lol...i am fine with using 90% of words used for verbal humiliation myself, about myself ...the exceptions being the word bitch, because of its prolific use in an abusive situation for the past 24 years and whore because it was an accurate word to describe me at one time and now its not...it may, in fact, be why that particular example triggers such such a violent dissociation...funny how when at one time you would negotiate to litterally let a man tear up your body with no regard to disease or any other physical reprecussions (thank God, the only reprecussions are the emotional scars) for just one more high....you have a problem with the word "whore" when its not proceeded with My.... humiliation for me is not a motivational tool, its not a punishment, its not anything BUT another way for me and my partner - play or long term - to get our jollies off....so if their motivation is in the right spot...and they truly appreciate the things they are humiliating me - making me feel my place - about...i guess it doesn't really matter how they say it...

Aswad -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (9/26/2007 7:20:03 PM)
~nods~ For me, it's both a kink and a way to (for those it works with) reinforce their station, i.e. their place. That said, many find other things than the verbal to be humiliating, degrading or debasing; the latter generally only when it's used on a regular basis, or when a line is crossed that sends the message that one's station has been lowered (for instance, when regularly called upon for acts that compromise the previous level of dignity, or when at least once being used in a manner that is utterly base by the previous standards). My girl doesn't respond very well to verbal humiliation, but symbolic, ritualized or base acts work well for both of us. Health, al-Aswad.

Falkenstein -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (1/6/2010 9:19:09 PM)
Aftercare is part of the play, except it is for real. I cuddle my sub, put her naked under a nice blanket (a couette, actually) taking care of covering her feet (exposed submissive feet are a sign of bad mastership), bring her a tea or a hot chocolate with a straw (and checking in front of her if it is not too hot, after all, her tongue and mouth have important duties that cannot be fullfilled after being burnt by microwaved choc or tea) and we speak about the scene or the episode.Well, usually she speaks. Strangely enough, while this may sound very "soft" (and I do not care much about sounding soft or hard or mellow in the center but corny on the edges), my submissive integrated much better a new reflex or mannierism after a good, lengthy aftercare, like above mentionned plus a massage, an hot bath and a movie.

xssve -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (1/7/2010 8:16:02 AM)
I'm pretty big on aftercare, but there are those who find it unnecessary, even annoying. It's sort of a matter of how quickly you can regain your equilibrium after a heavy scene - or if you even want to - another good reason for some honest prior negotiation of expectations.

Mercnbeth -> RE: humiliation vs degredation and aftercare (1/7/2010 9:02:20 AM)
quote: further thoughts on aftercare after humiliation or degredation in a scene or play? this slave has no desire to be coddled or atttended to before or after a scene...intense or not. this slave understands there are plenty of those who are into it and find it essential, but for this slave, it's not something she needs.

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