Safe punishment.

Safe punishment. (Full Version)

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missturbation -> Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 9:10:14 AM)
Curiosity has hold of me again [:D] This thread stems a little from all the safe word threads recently and my own trust and use of safe words / limits thread. I was discussing these threads with someone recently and the question of using a safe word when being punished came up! For me punishment is very different from play. I do not in any way enjoy punishment or the pain from it but know it is necessary in the dynamic Sir and i have. I will say though that after punishment i get an extreme feeling of relief that i have paid for my mistakes. So for those of you out there who use a safe word in play and are punished, are you still allowed to use your safe word when being punished? If so why? If not why not? Thank you in advance. [:)]

crouchingtigress -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 9:13:16 AM)
i dont see the value in safe words as that they are an illusion, cleverly designed to keep us from going where we say we want to go.....makes no sense...yaknow?

chellekitty -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 9:26:52 AM)
this topic has been addressed before...but here is the breif overview of my understanding... ummm punishment is not for pleasure or enjoyment on either part, it is for stopping a behavior (discipline is for correcting a behavior) so safe words are not allowed because the the context of consenuality is moot.... also punishment generally (unless its agreed upon in your dynamic, as some on these boards have shown) should not be something that will cause permanent or long term harm ie. breaking a bone, removing a limb, or causing a psychological mental breakdown that requires hospitalization....so....ow ow ow, i have a cramp, can wait until the punishment is over....and generally you aren't all trussed up for the punishment if you use corpral punishment i should, at this time, point out that not everyone uses corpral punishement...it doesn't work one bit for me...i block it out and might as well be reading a book.... that being said...roleplaying a punishment scene is a horse of a different color my $1.50 chelle

toservez -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 9:38:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress i dont see the value in safe words as that they are an illusion, cleverly designed to keep us from going where we say we want to go.....makes no sense...yaknow? Safe words are for trust that is beneficial for both parties, especially new and learning each other. I understand the illusion comment and somewhat agree with it for a long term couple but as a blanket comment I do not. I do not think at all they are meant to prevent us from where we want to go but some people might use them that way, more of a tool that can get misused by a few. Probably depends on individuals dynamic but in mine a safe word is use only if I am at a mental or physical limit where continuing will cause damage so of course it need to apply to punishments, but I do not recall being subjected to punishments pain or other sever related that the pushing out that far. I agree with the OP part of the beauty of all punishments and in particular painful ones is the penance apsect has a mental feel of closure from it.

SubmissiveLion -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 9:45:37 AM)
I would have to agree that a safe word is not very useful in a punishment situation. I think that before a Dominant gives punishment, he should realize already what his Sub/Slave's limits are. And push them just slightly, enough to scare the Sub into understanding what they did was wrong, and that in the future, you will go farther if necessary. Having a safe word gives the Sub/Slave an out. Now the real question should be, when is punishment necessary and how brutal should it be.

crouchingtigress -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 9:47:40 AM)
quote: a safe word is use only if I am at a mental or physical limit where continuing will cause damage well we will have to agree to disagree, if there is damage happening i am equally capable of saying sir, mam, there is damage happening. i guess it depends on why you want to scene, for me its about letting go, and going there where ever there is...what ever demons are waiting for me at the gate of my psychye, i would hate to know i had the power to make those demons disapear, at will just because i am afraid of them....i would rather make them disapear by facing them and accpeting them. even if i scene with a complete stranger i dont want to have that power, because its like going on a rollercoaster.....there are no brakes on a roller coaster right? the reason is no one really wants that power, it would ruin it....you just have to trust your ability to pick good rides,,,strap in...and scream all the way down...

lonlyrossInNeed -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 9:59:43 AM)
I have never used a safe word went being punished and to the illusion comemt i think that a safe word if to be used if something is really going wrong especially for medical issue or something like that

toservez -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 10:01:13 AM)
quote: well we will have to agree to disagree, if there is damage happening i am equally capable of saying sir, mam, there is damage happening. I think we are only disagreeing over semantics. You are capable of saying no more which is pretty much what a safe word is to me, no more.

Bobkgin -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 10:21:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Curiosity has hold of me again [:D] This thread stems a little from all the safe word threads recently and my own trust and use of safe words / limits thread. I was discussing these threads with someone recently and the question of using a safe word when being punished came up! For me punishment is very different from play. I do not in any way enjoy punishment or the pain from it but know it is necessary in the dynamic Sir and i have. I will say though that after punishment i get an extreme feeling of relief that i have paid for my mistakes. So for those of you out there who use a safe word in play and are punished, are you still allowed to use your safe word when being punished? If so why? If not why not? Thank you in advance. [:)] I'll describe what I do and you tell me if "punishment" is an apt description. If my slave has refused to behave as a slave, without good cause, then I pull back and refuse to act as a master until such time as the slave acknowledges her error and asks me to re-assume control. Simply put, refusal to accept the responsibilities she assumed upon entering the relationship is a betrayal of trust: a signal that she does not want me to be her master. It may have been a momentary lapse into selfishness, or it may be more. But rather than assume the best interpretation, I assume it is a challenge to my authority. As I have no authority without her willing cooperation, I do not pretend to have authority when her behaviour tells me I have none over her. So I withdraw, and wait. This leads to some serious discussions about the nature of our relationship, her interest in it, and the future. She has to convince me that this was a mistake she regrets and has no intention of repeating before I will don the mantle of her master. I've found this approach works quite well at resolving problems. It makes the slave aware of her responsibilities to me and the relationship, and teaches her that betrayal of trust has consequences. Should I call this "punishment"?

breatheasone -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 10:48:10 AM)
quote: Now the real question should be, when is punishment necessary and how brutal should it be. This interests me.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 10:48:34 AM)
The need to employ punishment is an indication of failure. The failure isn't limited to the person receiving punishment but also should be assigned to the person needing to enforce or implement punishment. It's not a time to "step away" or "refuse to dominate". Abdicating authority and/or responsibility by withdrawing dominance from the relationship is no way to correct the condition which caused the need for punishment in the first place. It's similar to the position of "taking your bat and ball and going home". True that means the "game's over"; but for some it wasn't a "game" in the first place. It is a time for more attention, more focus, more communication and discussion. The process should be cathartic and emotional. The physical aspect is the end point. It is a demarcation point to put the situation behind you both. An indication that the emotional and mental aspect of punishment was effective is that the physical aspect can be implemented with a feather and still generate tears. That has been the case with us. Speaking from the opinion that safe-words are NEVER effective I'm sure it comes as no surprise that I feel their use in a punishment scenario as described is just silly. That said, a person inflicting punishment should never do so when angry. Punishment doesn't relinquish any part of the responsibility over the mental, emotional, and physical well being of their sub, slave, or property. This doesn't speak for 'play', 'play-punishment', or dealing with the 'bratty sub'. The use of a safe-word in that context takes on the same value as it does in any other instance.

breatheasone -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 10:57:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth The need to employ punishment is an indication of failure. The failure isn't limited to the person receiving punishment but also should be assigned to the person needing to enforce or implement punishment. It's not a time to "step away" or "refuse to dominate". Abdicating authority and/or responsibility by withdrawing dominance from the relationship is no way to correct the condition which caused the need for punishment in the first place. It's similar to the position of "taking your bat and ball and going home". True that means the "game's over"; but for some it wasn't a "game" in the first place. It is a time for more attention, more focus, more communication and discussion. The process should be cathartic and emotional. The physical aspect is the end point. It is a demarcation point to put the situation behind you both. An indication that the emotional and mental aspect of punishment was effective is that the physical aspect can be implemented with a feather and still generate tears. That has been the case with us. Speaking from the opinion that safe-words are NEVER effective I'm sure it comes as no surprise that I feel their use in a punishment scenario as described is just silly. That said, a person inflicting punishment should never do so when angry. Punishment doesn't relinquish any part of the responsibility over the mental, emotional, and physical well being of their sub, slave, or property. This doesn't speak for 'play', 'play-punishment', or dealing with the 'bratty sub'. The use of a safe-word in that context takes on the same value as it does in any other instance. I agree completely...and abandoning ones slave at that critical point is not a very good idea imho... For me it would cause alot more trouble than it was worth I'm sure.

velvetears -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 11:06:31 AM)
i can understand your reasoning for doing that but did you consider that many subs/slaves push the dom/masters to see how far they can go or what they can get away with. It's like a safety issue (as i have heard it said). If they need the reassurance of your authority and control over them demonstrated to them. Just a thought, but if you recind your authority in reaction to your subs disobedience aren't you in essence following her lead? How can that reinforce you are the one in control? Disobedience is going to happen, no one is perfect. i would not look at that response as punishment, i would see it as the dom not knowing really what to do or how to respond to my disobedience and i would feel insecure.

toservez -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 11:15:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth The need to employ punishment is an indication of failure. The failure isn't limited to the person receiving punishment but also should be assigned to the person needing to enforce or implement punishment. It's not a time to "step away" or "refuse to dominate". Abdicating authority and/or responsibility by withdrawing dominance from the relationship is no way to correct the condition which caused the need for punishment in the first place. It's similar to the position of "taking your bat and ball and going home". True that means the "game's over"; but for some it wasn't a "game" in the first place. It is a time for more attention, more focus, more communication and discussion. The process should be cathartic and emotional. The physical aspect is the end point. It is a demarcation point to put the situation behind you both. An indication that the emotional and mental aspect of punishment was effective is that the physical aspect can be implemented with a feather and still generate tears. That has been the case with us. Speaking from the opinion that safe-words are NEVER effective I'm sure it comes as no surprise that I feel their use in a punishment scenario as described is just silly. That said, a person inflicting punishment should never do so when angry. Punishment doesn't relinquish any part of the responsibility over the mental, emotional, and physical well being of their sub, slave, or property. This doesn't speak for 'play', 'play-punishment', or dealing with the 'bratty sub'. The use of a safe-word in that context takes on the same value as it does in any other instance. I agree. I will echo what some others of said in a shorter and more snarky way. Dominants lead not pout or appear to pout. If you are in a committed power exchange relationship which for this to be an issue you must be then anyone whether the submissive goofing up or the dominant reacting to go time out is not addressing the situation. If I had a Master who every time I screwed up in some nature that drew this punishment I am pretty sure it would only be so many times before I am out the door. Submissives screw up we are not human, when we screw up some proactive measures, punishment and some reflection by my Master would be nice, not I am not playing right now actions from him.

Bobkgin -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 11:25:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth The need to employ punishment is an indication of failure. The failure isn't limited to the person receiving punishment but also should be assigned to the person needing to enforce or implement punishment. It's not a time to "step away" or "refuse to dominate". Abdicating authority and/or responsibility by withdrawing dominance from the relationship is no way to correct the condition which caused the need for punishment in the first place. It's similar to the position of "taking your bat and ball and going home". True that means the "game's over"; but for some it wasn't a "game" in the first place. It doesn't sound like we're seeing this the same way. In my relationships a human being always has the right to change his/her mind regarding a relationship. When she betrays the trust inherent in our relationship, she is signalling a change of mind regarding the nature of our relationship. The only way I can respect that right is to stop until such time as I learn what change has occurred, what she has in mind for the future, whether she wishes to include me in that future, and whether I'm willing to accept that future with her. This isn't a matter of egos, but rather it is a matter of respecting her right to change her mind about what she wants, and the consequences that come with such a change. quote: It is a time for more attention, more focus, more communication and discussion. Indeed. quote: The process should be cathartic and emotional. Actually, I'd prefer a slave to discuss her difficulties with me before she feels a need to betray my trust. That is usually where the trust is betrayed: the slave having problems and not bringing them to me so as to avoid disappointing me or causing more problems. I make it a point of instructing each slave (starting with the interview process) that I'd rather have truth than anything else from her, that she is to bring any problems she might have with me to me so we can resolve them. quote: The physical aspect is the end point. It is a demarcation point to put the situation behind you both. An indication that the emotional and mental aspect of punishment was effective is that the physical aspect can be implemented with a feather and still generate tears. That has been the case with us. Well, with me, assuming all has been resolved well, we pick up where we left off. I do not want to reward drama (which is what betrayal is - an ending can be obtained without the drama). The best way for a slave to show her new-found resolve to accept her responsibilities is to continue with whatever it was that inspired the betrayal in the first place.

mistoferin -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 11:33:50 AM)
Submissives screw up, dominants screw up...we are people and thus we are fallible. Why is it that it is assumed that a submissive has to be punished to learn the lessons, yet a dominant does not? Are submissives thought to be so stupid that we can't figure out or take responsibility for our actions unless painful stimuli is applied to our ass or we are deprived of something? My ass and my brain don't connect that way. My ass and my conscience aren't connected that way either. I've never heard a dominant say "I made a mistake or I've been bad, please whip me or stand me in a corner so I can learn the lesson". As soon as I hear dominants start bending over to take theirs, I'll start bending over to take mine. Until then, I will continue to think along the lines that punishment is unnecessary amongst responsible and accountable adults. If you speak of engaging in it as a means of play, I'm right there with ya. As a means of correcting poor behavior though, nah....can't wrap my head around that one. As for safe words...I see no value in them at any time.

IrishMist -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 11:42:54 AM)
I was never allowed one in any circumstance. If I did something wrong and was getting a beating because of it; I had better keep my mouth shut or he would have just taped it shut and been done with it. As for the rest… who wants to stop when you are having a good time?

Celeste43 -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 11:42:57 AM)
Why shouldn't you? You can still feel nauseous while in the corner and need to get to the bathroom immediately. You can be standing there with your nose on a coin and having your knees locked and start to pass out. And you can still hit an emotional trigger that's going to blow the trust you formerly built up in the relationship out of the window if you don't stop and address the problem immediately. Let's say you decide to send the sub to a closet to think over her misdeeds. And she goes but it brings on a flashback of being a tender age and locked in the closet by an evil step. Think that she can survive that without it causing her to fear and distrust you? This assumes she doesn't so totally fall apart she needs to spend 72 hours in a locked ward getting stabilized on meds. Leave her standing, nose on coin and she passes out, hitting a desk on the way down and breaking her nose. ER next stop and her answer to how this happened will be totally truthful saying it happened while you were punishing her for spending more than her allotted ten minutes weekly on the phone to her mother, causing you to answer some questions as well as having to pay for the plastic surgery to repair the damage. Accidents happen unexpectedly. If we knew they were going to happen, we'd change things so they didn't occur. Safewords can help to prevent accidents. And accident prevention is a good thing.

Bobkgin -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 11:43:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears i can understand your reasoning for doing that but did you consider that many subs/slaves push the dom/masters to see how far they can go or what they can get away with. It's like a safety issue (as i have heard it said). If they need the reassurance of your authority and control over them demonstrated to them. Just a thought, but if you recind your authority in reaction to your subs disobedience aren't you in essence following her lead? How can that reinforce you are the one in control? Disobedience is going to happen, no one is perfect. i would not look at that response as punishment, i would see it as the dom not knowing really what to do or how to respond to my disobedience and i would feel insecure. With me obedience is -always- voluntary. My partners declared their devotion to our relationship every time they were given an instruction and faced the decision to obey or disobey. They had voluntarily accepted a relationship where they would serve as sub/slave. They had justified this decision by claiming that to serve me in that capacity would fulfill them as humans. I accepted them on that basis. There is absolutely nothing forced in my relationships. The slave asks of me how she can serve ("what may I do for you?"), or whether she can serve in a specific manner ("can I get you a cup of tea?"). I refuse to offer a slave any cover from the fact that she is living this life willingly and of her own choosing. She must embrace this choice knowingly for it to have meaning to either of us. And in making this choice, she is accepting her responsibility to always choose to obey me whenever she is given an instruction. Failure to do so is a betrayal of my trust, as she is betraying her committment to our relationship. To disobey is to bring an ending to her being my slave. Whether that is her intent or not is what I must discover, but I will not presume to continue being her master when I am in doubt about her intent. I'd rather err on the side of caution. I should also point out that I am not talking about mistakes, or situations where she must disobey me to sustain her life and well-being. My slaves have been given several protocols to follow to deal with unpredictable situations such that they need not disobey. For example: 1. apply the rule 2. if no rule applies, or you are unsure whether a rule applies, ask me 3. if you can't ask me, use your best judgment (your life and well-being are of the highest priority).

IrishMist -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/26/2007 11:46:24 AM)
quote: If my slave has refused to behave as a slave, without good cause, then I pull back and refuse to act as a master until such time as the slave acknowledges her error and asks me to re-assume control. In other words; my slave always controlls me

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