RE: Safe punishment.

RE: Safe punishment. (Full Version)

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exogenous -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/27/2007 9:33:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubmissiveLion I would have to agree that a safe word is not very useful in a punishment situation. I think that before a Dominant gives punishment, he should realize already what his Sub/Slave's limits are. And push them just slightly, enough to scare the Sub into understanding what they did was wrong, and that in the future, you will go farther if necessary. Having a safe word gives the Sub/Slave an out. Now the real question should be, when is punishment necessary and how brutal should it be. To me, punishment is not a time or place to push a sub’s limits. Punishment is for the purpose of correcting an action that displays disrespect or other improper behavior. And often times less is more as I tend to (mentally and/or emotionally) beat myself up over an infraction more than a Dom ever could, anyway. That “look” or quietly stern tone of voice will rattle me more than a physical chastisement any day. As pain is pleasurable to me, I would not be with a Dom who used physical punishment as a means of correction. Physical is used for play, and in that scenario I appreciate the meaning behind having my limits being pushed.

Bobkgin -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/27/2007 10:14:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi And Bob...I think you're taking this a bit too seriously. If you were laying in bed with your girl and you both just woke up, and you said 'go make me some coffee' and she said 'noooo I'm tired' would you honestly reply with "ok I'm breaking up with you" instead of swatting her butt and saying "do it dear"? On the rare occasion when something like that has happened, I've looked at her with a cocked eyebrow and said "Excuse me?" as if I was suffering from a momentary bout of deafness. It has yet to fail me. [;)] It might help to understand that all of my subs and slaves have asked me to accept them as such and have offered me their obedience, knowing what disobedience means to me. Trust is the essential ingredient in my M/s relationships, and it is founded on each of us keeping our word and the responsibilities we accepted when we entered our relationship. That includes her obedience, and they've all been very aware of it because I keep them aware that they are the ones choosing to obey each and every time I give them an instruction. I require my sub/slaves to own who they are and what they need/want. By being real with themselves they can be real with me.

Focus50 -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 2:56:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin and I'd like to see how they justify the concept of punishment. Justify it to who To themselves. Seems logical to assume anyone who has a punishment dynamic in place has already justified it to themselves by default, no? Or is just that they haven't had the opportunity to be educated by your enlightened self, yet? <shrugs> Focus.

Focus50 -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 3:00:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxi .... <snip> what happens if a dominant fucks up. Speaking for myself and as one who suffers greatly from personal pride and principle, I hafta endure the dreaded mirror with no defined length of sentence attached. No wonder subs abhor the "stare" - me too! Focus.

Aswad -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 3:52:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin On the rare occasion when something like that has happened, I've looked at her with a cocked eyebrow and said "Excuse me?" as if I was suffering from a momentary bout of deafness. It has yet to fail me. [;)] That does indeed have its merits. If one does not initially start off with a more intense dynamic than one intends to settle on, it can be easy to slip up and leave the mindspace in question. Such a reminder serves to bring the mind back to what was agreed upon. It isn't usually so much a question of disregarding the dynamic as it is either (a) a question of the dynamic not being sufficiently at the forefront in one's mind, such that it gets lost in force of habit or the like, or (b) a question of wanting to submit, or be enslaved, or whatever, but having difficulty in doing so, for whatever reason; e.g. someone who is used to being assertive or is using an explicit dynamic to resolve the usual tug-of-war problem that can arise in a relationship where the dynamic is more happenstance (i.e. vanilla dynamic). An exception- the one that has been most relevant to me- would be those who require the feeling that there is a real measure of control that derives from the dominant, rather than from the sub/slave. While some are quite content to be self-driven in their submission, others desire, or even require, that their submission be backed by a promise that compliance will be enforced if necessary. In those cases, one may find that one is tested in this regard. The way I first realized the significance of power dynamics in my life was when I was a novice of kink several years ago, and playing with an older woman, who then tried to turn the tables on me. Instinctively, I put her down hard, and kept going. That part where I put her down did more for the both of us than anything else that transpired that night. And from conversations with others, I know I'm not alone in deriving substantially more enjoyment from a dynamic wherein there is no question that failing to jump at that cocked eyebrow will result in being physically put in one's place in short order. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 3:53:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 Speaking for myself and as one who suffers greatly from personal pride and principle, I hafta endure the dreaded mirror with no defined length of sentence attached. No wonder subs abhor the "stare" - me too! Quite. There is no higher standard I have been held to than the one I set for myself. Health, al-Aswad.

Bobkgin -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 4:38:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Bobkgin On the rare occasion when something like that has happened, I've looked at her with a cocked eyebrow and said "Excuse me?" as if I was suffering from a momentary bout of deafness. It has yet to fail me. [;)] That does indeed have its merits. If one does not initially start off with a more intense dynamic than one intends to settle on, it can be easy to slip up and leave the mindspace in question. Such a reminder serves to bring the mind back to what was agreed upon. It isn't usually so much a question of disregarding the dynamic as it is either (a) a question of the dynamic not being sufficiently at the forefront in one's mind, such that it gets lost in force of habit or the like, or (b) a question of wanting to submit, or be enslaved, or whatever, but having difficulty in doing so, for whatever reason; e.g. someone who is used to being assertive or is using an explicit dynamic to resolve the usual tug-of-war problem that can arise in a relationship where the dynamic is more happenstance (i.e. vanilla dynamic). An exception- the one that has been most relevant to me- would be those who require the feeling that there is a real measure of control that derives from the dominant, rather than from the sub/slave. While some are quite content to be self-driven in their submission, others desire, or even require, that their submission be backed by a promise that compliance will be enforced if necessary. In those cases, one may find that one is tested in this regard. The way I first realized the significance of power dynamics in my life was when I was a novice of kink several years ago, and playing with an older woman, who then tried to turn the tables on me. Instinctively, I put her down hard, and kept going. That part where I put her down did more for the both of us than anything else that transpired that night. And from conversations with others, I know I'm not alone in deriving substantially more enjoyment from a dynamic wherein there is no question that failing to jump at that cocked eyebrow will result in being physically put in one's place in short order. Health, al-Aswad. I would add another reason: C. It is just so damn good cuddling beside me under the soft flannel covers of a warm yielding waterbed that all thoughts of leaving are driven from her head and she needs a gentle reminder of how she got there in the first place. [;)]

Aswad -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 8:41:58 AM)
~lol~ Of course, Bob. That should never be overlooked. We are only human, after all.

missturbation -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 9:11:04 AM)
To me, punishment is not a time or place to push a sub’s limits. Punishment is for the purpose of correcting an action that displays disrespect or other improper behavior. I agree that punishment is to correct behaviour. However i do not agree it's not a time to push limits. My first punishment i was due 14 strokes and managed to take all of two. This time when i was punished Sir pushed my limits and i managed the full six. If Sir had settled at my limit of two from the first time, what good is that? It only tells me i can misbehave as much as i want and im only going to take the two strokes. As pain is pleasurable to me, I would not be with a Dom who used physical punishment as a means of correction. Physical is used for play, and in that scenario I appreciate the meaning behind having my limits being pushed. Taking pain in play and pain in punishment are two completley different things, think along the lines of a good spanking and stubbing your toe. One is wanted pain for want of a better word and one is unwanted. The pain feels different. This is how it is for me in punishment, i enjoy pain in play but the feelings associated with pain in punishment are completely different. The mind set is different from play and everything that goes with it.

Koala -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 9:44:04 AM)
I think that safe words are highly valuable early in a relationship. With time, as understanding of the sub's limits and desires is well understood, the safe words can dissolve...

Bobkgin -> RE: Safe punishment. (9/28/2007 5:58:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation quote: As pain is pleasurable to me, I would not be with a Dom who used physical punishment as a means of correction. Physical is used for play, and in that scenario I appreciate the meaning behind having my limits being pushed. Taking pain in play and pain in punishment are two completley different things, think along the lines of a good spanking and stubbing your toe. One is wanted pain for want of a better word and one is unwanted. The pain feels different. This is how it is for me in punishment, i enjoy pain in play but the feelings associated with pain in punishment are completely different. The mind set is different from play and everything that goes with it. I think it is good you and others are bringing out the psychological aspect of punishment, Miss. There's a lot of discussion on the nuts and bolts of what and how, but until recently I hadn't seen much on the why. While it is easy enough to answer "Why?" with "Because I want it that way", I think it helps to understand a concept when each of us can explain why we want it the way we do.

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