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RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 9:54:21 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

To the audience at large:

Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes.

But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten.

Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes.

That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes.

Why is that preferable to a life where mistakes are addressed constructively/cooperatively by people who are both fully-invested in the health and happiness of an M/s relationship, where the only choice that leads to an ending is deliberate betrayal of trust?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 9:57:59 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes.

But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten.

Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes.

That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes.

Why is that preferable to a life where mistakes are addressed constructively/cooperatively by people who are both fully-invested in the health and happiness of an M/s relationship, where the only choice that leads to an ending is deliberate betrayal of trust?

When are you going to understand that not everyone wants to do it your way. Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship.

Is that really so hard for you to understand. Your way is not the right way for others. If you like it that way fine. Good luck with finding your perfect barbie doll submissive who never puts a foot wrong.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:01:19 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship.

And why do they want it that way?

They have options. Why choose that one over any other?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to susie)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:02:40 AM

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes.

But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten.

Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes.

That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes.

Ooooohhh!! So anyone who heckles King Bob is an abuser...wonder how come none of us ever looked at it that way?

Must be that pesky common sense and dealing with reality thing that King Bob doesn't let define him.

(in reply to susie)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:05:50 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship.

And why do they want it that way?

They have options. Why choose that one over any other?

Because that is what they choose from their relationship. Nobody is forced to choose that way.

What makes you choose yours. You think it is right for you.

Well I think my way is right for me. I am happy, loved, cherished and owned by someone that cares deeply for me. Yes punishment is part of that relationship because it is something that WE both felt was the right thing for us. Punishment is not always as you see it, a beating. It take many forms but I always know that I am truly loved by him.

I would see your way of removing yourself from the dynamic when things do not go your way as far more abusive than the way our relationship is. One thing he never does is withdraw from me in anyway.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:13:39 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship.

And why do they want it that way?

They have options. Why choose that one over any other?

Because that is what they choose from their relationship. Nobody is forced to choose that way.

What makes you choose yours. You think it is right for you.

Well I think my way is right for me. I am happy, loved, cherished and owned by someone that cares deeply for me. Yes punishment is part of that relationship because it is something that WE both felt was the right thing for us. Punishment is not always as you see it, a beating. It take many forms but I always know that I am truly loved by him.

I would see your way of removing yourself from the dynamic when things do not go your way as far more abusive than the way our relationship is. One thing he never does is withdraw from me in anyway.

So if she signals that she is quitting the relationship through deliberate disobedience I am "abusive" if I respect her right to make that decision?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to susie)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:14:08 AM

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes.

But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten.

Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes.

That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes.

Why is that preferable to a life where mistakes are addressed constructively/cooperatively by people who are both fully-invested in the health and happiness of an M/s relationship, where the only choice that leads to an ending is deliberate betrayal of trust?

You came a little after I penned this essay on Punishment and Discipline.

The crux of your contention, is that you cannot imagine how punishment or discipline could reinforce trust, contribute to emotional health, happiness, or be constructive.

No small number of people prefer clearly drawn rules and expectations, with clearly drawn consequences for failure to adhere to those rules. If I am to be at work at nine am each day, yet showing up at ten, eleven, not at all results in no punishment, it's unlikely that I will feel even more compelled to arrive at work on time each day; that negative incentive actually drives me to perform better (arriving on time to put in a full eight+ hours of productive work.) It's actually on par with a capitalist/communist perspective on work; communists often take the belief that if we are all encouraged to do our best, everyone will. Capitalists believe that when we are given negative as well as positive reinforcement, we will perform better. That the United States has the highest worker productivity rates as a result of this model (in my opinion.) You take a communist approach to relationships, I take a capitalist approach. We can argue why the other's ideology is wrong till we're blue in the face, but when I hang my hat up and lock my door at night the only people who need to be content with my ideology is me, and the girls at my feet.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:18:31 AM

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

You are too good to me, Ron (beams). If the switch could be beat out of me, I'd probably be the first in line for it. Please don't get me anything that needs to live outside of its natural environment. I kill all potted plants and ants in antfarms....

No soup for you, then.

Reichfueher Von Suppe

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:21:48 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

To the audience at large:

Listening to the punishment advocates and hecklers, it is obvious that no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes.

But as I understand the punishment paradigm, mistakes are always punished, which in the case of some people would mean beaten.

Now, if we are to take the advocates and the hecklers at their word, no one stops making mistakes.

That means a life-time of punishment, which for some people means being beaten for the rest of their lives: for mistakes.

Why is that preferable to a life where mistakes are addressed constructively/cooperatively by people who are both fully-invested in the health and happiness of an M/s relationship, where the only choice that leads to an ending is deliberate betrayal of trust?

You came a little after I penned this essay on Punishment and Discipline.

The crux of your contention, is that you cannot imagine how punishment or discipline could reinforce trust, contribute to emotional health, happiness, or be constructive.

No small number of people prefer clearly drawn rules and expectations, with clearly drawn consequences for failure to adhere to those rules. If I am to be at work at nine am each day, yet showing up at ten, eleven, not at all results in no punishment, it's unlikely that I will feel even more compelled to arrive at work on time each day; that negative incentive actually drives me to perform better (arriving on time to put in a full eight+ hours of productive work.) It's actually on par with a capitalist/communist perspective on work; communists often take the belief that if we are all encouraged to do our best, everyone will. Capitalists believe that when we are given negative as well as positive reinforcement, we will perform better. That the United States has the highest worker productivity rates as a result of this model (in my opinion.) You take a communist approach to relationships, I take a capitalist approach. We can argue why the other's ideology is wrong till we're blue in the face, but when I hang my hat up and lock my door at night the only people who need to be content with my ideology is me, and the girls at my feet.

Stephan

Now maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you have the same feelings for your work as you do for your "girls".

Seems to me the motivation to excel in an M/s relationship is quite different than that of a working relationship.

So comparing the two just doesn't work for me.

Unless you are saying that serving you is like going somewhere where you don't want to go and doing something you don't want to do and never being adequately compensated for the effort.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:25:22 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship.

And why do they want it that way?

They have options. Why choose that one over any other?

Because that is what they choose from their relationship. Nobody is forced to choose that way.

What makes you choose yours. You think it is right for you.

Well I think my way is right for me. I am happy, loved, cherished and owned by someone that cares deeply for me. Yes punishment is part of that relationship because it is something that WE both felt was the right thing for us. Punishment is not always as you see it, a beating. It take many forms but I always know that I am truly loved by him.

I would see your way of removing yourself from the dynamic when things do not go your way as far more abusive than the way our relationship is. One thing he never does is withdraw from me in anyway.

So if she signals that she is quitting the relationship through deliberate disobedience I am "abusive" if I respect her right to make that decision?

No because that is clearly not what you have said in previous posts. You have said you withdraw from being the Master and wait for her to ask you to resume that role. To me (this is my view the one I am entitled to) that would be abusive emotionally. I have a consistent dominant partner not someone who turns it on and off when I am having a bad day.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:29:37 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Now maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you have the same feelings for your work as you do for your "girls".

Seems to me the motivation to excel in an M/s relationship is quite different than that of a working relationship.

So comparing the two just doesn't work for me.

Unless you are saying that serving you is like going somewhere where you don't want to go and doing something you don't want to do and never being adequately compensated for the effort.

Not everyone sees work in that way. I have a job that I love as does Master. He runs his own business doing something he loves doing. The comparison is obviously not going to work for you if you have never had that feeling about a job. How sad to view your working life as something you hate doing.

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:39:07 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Some choose the life time of punishment because that is exactly what they want from the relationship.

And why do they want it that way?

They have options. Why choose that one over any other?

Because that is what they choose from their relationship. Nobody is forced to choose that way.

What makes you choose yours. You think it is right for you.

Well I think my way is right for me. I am happy, loved, cherished and owned by someone that cares deeply for me. Yes punishment is part of that relationship because it is something that WE both felt was the right thing for us. Punishment is not always as you see it, a beating. It take many forms but I always know that I am truly loved by him.

I would see your way of removing yourself from the dynamic when things do not go your way as far more abusive than the way our relationship is. One thing he never does is withdraw from me in anyway.

So if she signals that she is quitting the relationship through deliberate disobedience I am "abusive" if I respect her right to make that decision?

No because that is clearly not what you have said in previous posts. You have said you withdraw from being the Master and wait for her to ask you to resume that role.

That is not what I've said.

What I said was that if she is willing I will talk with her about her decision. If there was some error in communication then it is quickly discovered, addressed, and we move on together.

But I can only recall one instance of that, with my wife early in our relationship.

In the other cases of deliberate diobedience, it was indeed intended to end the relationship.

For me, I see the act of disobedience to be the point where the relationship ended. That was where the trust was betrayed and the promise broken. Both the trust and the promise are essential to our M/s relationship.

My refusal to act as master after that is my recognition of her right to quit.

It is not a bluff. It is not a tactic. It is the end.

If it is to continue, it will be at her request, and only providing she can convince me this won't happen again. And I am very reluctant to believe that if it happened once, it won't happen again. But thus far, that situation hasn't arisen and I hope it never does.

quote:

To me (this is my view the one I am entitled to) that would be abusive emotionally. I have a consistent dominant partner not someone who turns it on and off when I am having a bad day.

And I saw my wife to her death by cancer.

While I hope you never face that, if you do, I hope yours is as devoted to you as I was to mine.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to susie)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:43:16 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

To me (this is my view the one I am entitled to) that would be abusive emotionally. I have a consistent dominant partner not someone who turns it on and off when I am having a bad day.

And I saw my wife to her death by cancer.

While I hope you never face that, if you do, I hope yours is as devoted to you as I was to mine.

You are not the only one to have gone through that, though why you feel the need to mention it in every thread is beyond me. In fact my Master nursed his wife through cancer until her death 5 years ago. Last year he nursed me through a serious cancer operation. I can assure you that others are devoted to their partners too and you are not the only one.

edited for crap spelling once again doh!

< Message edited by susie -- 10/1/2007 11:04:50 AM >

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:43:26 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Now maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you have the same feelings for your work as you do for your "girls".

Seems to me the motivation to excel in an M/s relationship is quite different than that of a working relationship.

So comparing the two just doesn't work for me.

Unless you are saying that serving you is like going somewhere where you don't want to go and doing something you don't want to do and never being adequately compensated for the effort.

Not everyone sees work in that way. I have a job that I love as does Master. He runs his own business doing something he loves doing. The comparison is obviously not going to work for you if you have never had that feeling about a job. How sad to view your working life as something you hate doing.

Well you've just patronized about 90% of America's working population, because most of them are not doing what they'd really like to do, or going where they'd really like to go.

Certainly most do not run their own business.

I happened to enjoy the work I did, for the most part. But before that I had other jobs I loathed.

But when you need money for food and rent, you do what you can.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to susie)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 10:59:32 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

Soup Nazi. (edited to point out this was directed toward Ron. Not Bob.)

Domiguy: Greenville is 208.5 miles from Chicago.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 10/1/2007 11:02:07 AM >

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 11:08:36 AM

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

I get spankings when I'm good

....I DON'T get puninshed for "mistakes" Heck I don't really get punished for anything LOL. Master and I seem to have the talk it out approch.

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 11:13:40 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

To the audience at large:

I'm wondering how much of a connection there is between choosing the punishment paradigm and the parenting strategy they experienced when young.

I can see how too little discipline or too much discipline could lead towards choosing the punishment paradigm.

It seems odd that so few can actually articulate why they want it. Makes me think of Kate's warning about how most people put very little thought into making choices.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 11:14:03 AM

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Soup Nazi. (edited to point out this was directed toward Ron. Not Bob.)

Domiguy: Greenville is 208.5 miles from Chicago.

Gotta love it when you talk dirty to me, baby.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 11:24:29 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

Ron, you can try to beat the switch outa me, but if you break me - you bought me.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Why is Punishment not seen as Abusive? - 10/1/2007 11:26:36 AM

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

I never break my toys, if I did, I would have nothing left to play with, love.
Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

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