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Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/23/2005 11:38:44 AM

SadisticPrincess

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In non-kink situations, the people involved in a potential relationship work each other out, converse, do some give and take. (ideally!)

I have NOT observed this to be true in the femdom universe. In order for a submissive to get my attention, he has to show that he is interested in me. Talk! Pay attention! Entertain me! Do all the things that I expect from my vanilla dates, essentially.

Instead, I have tedious one-sided "conversations" that feel more like interviews or interrogations. ("oh, I was waiting for you to ask me questions." I have had men come to Club Fem parties to meet me, and had them spend virtually no time with me, then gotten emails later saying wow, let's do that again! Ummm......okay.

I suspect that most of you ladies expect to be seriously courted, I have read it time and again. What suggestions do you have for getting the subs to actually pick up on that? Do you get out there and pursue the submissives yourself, or do you expect them to come to you?

Just wondering. :)

ps---there is a fantastic article called "courtship" on a femdom site, I will post the link once I find it......or someone else can beat me to it!

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/23/2005 12:05:39 PM

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My first suggestion to a sub who is "going courting" is to have something to talk about - do NOT just wait for the Dom/me to ask questions. It gets old really quickly.

Make sure that you are well groomed ... nothing like having a guy (vanilla or otherwise) show up for a date scruffy and rumpled

And dress appropriately - don't wear a 3 piece suit to go on a picnic, don't show up in jeans if you are going to the opera, etc. And if you show up wearing shorts and sandles, you'd better be going to the beach.

The most important thing is to know who and what you are before you go ... be comfortable with that knowledge (or honest about it if you aren't sure in terms of sub/switch/dom/whatever) and be honest with whoever you are meeting about who you are. If the Dom/me doesn't like you for who you really are, then it won't work anyway - save yourself and your prospective Dominant a lot of time, trouble, effort and energy and BE YOURSELF.

(in reply to SadisticPrincess)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/23/2005 12:18:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

My first suggestion to a sub who is "going courting" is to have something to talk about - do NOT just wait for the Dom/me to ask questions. It gets old really quickly.

Make sure that you are well groomed ... nothing like having a guy (vanilla or otherwise) show up for a date scruffy and rumpled And dress appropriately - don't wear a 3 piece suit to go on a picnic, don't show up in jeans if you are going to the opera, etc. And if you show up wearing shorts and sandles, you'd better be going to the beach.

The most important thing is to know who and what you are before you go ... be comfortable with that knowledge (or honest about it if you aren't sure in terms of sub/switch/dom/whatever) and be honest with whoever you are meeting about who you are. If the Dom/me doesn't like you for who you really are, then it won't work anyway - save yourself and your prospective Dominant a lot of time, trouble, effort and energy and BE YOURSELF.

The question and answer thing is especially important. I've met some submissive men who have to be literally told that they can/should ask questions, after I have done all the talking and he just sits there. Then his questions after that prodding are often not the best ones -- usually just right back to kink. There's more to talk about with a woman than her kinks. You make a good impression if you go out of that realm.

Subs should be careful though of falling into the opposite trap of talking too much. If all they do is talk about themselves, and their ideas and opinions and whatnot, it becomes one-sided. Another thing that can be a bother to a potential femdom is when an experienced sub spends way too much time talking about his former femdom(s). I think some subs feel this will boost their credibility by demonstrating they have experience -- but haven't they heard the golden rule all people have about courting? Don't talk about the ex! If a sub likes to spend time using his past experiences to boast his credibility -- by bragging about his breadth of experience or how "real" his last femdom was (her status as a pro, her years of experience, her level of severity) I can't help but feel he's just stroking his own insecure ego and trying to impress me. There's a way to talk about experience without talking about ex-girlfriends. I've heard some subs talk so much about their ex's to women he's courting that he'd honestly be better off lying and saying he was totally green.

Or, even better, let your experience speak for itself. It's classless to talk about your former Mistress girlfriends to a woman you are getting to know.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to SweetDommes)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/23/2005 12:28:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess
I suspect that most of you ladies expect to be seriously courted, I have read it time and again. What suggestions do you have for getting the subs to actually pick up on that? Do you get out there and pursue the submissives yourself, or do you expect them to come to you?

Talk. Just telling them straight out. Sometimes I have to put a little authority into it...
"So, you are assigning me the task of finding out about you with no help at all? How disrespectful do you think you can be?"
Sometimes it wakes them up, sometimes not. Still, most responders want to play passive. A good filter is simply to direct them to correspond through another email. If they cannot come up with anything to talk about, they don't write. I do on occasion direct people to tell me about their daily lives, interests, inspirations and dreams. The ones that want a quick lay tend to get bored with that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadisticPrincess
ps---there is a fantastic article called "courtship" on a femdom site, I will post the link once I find it......or someone else can beat me to it!

Is this the one? I have it listed on my profile as good reading before they write to me.

http:/femalesincontrol.com/courtship.htm

(in reply to SadisticPrincess)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/23/2005 1:31:53 PM

SadisticPrincess

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That's the link! Thanks :)

(in reply to MsPurrmeow)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/23/2005 2:35:57 PM

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From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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Oh YES. I got so sick of sub men and their fantasy that they don't have to do anything but be there to hold up their end of the BDSM relationship. I was constantly giving subs links to http://www.femalesincontrol.com/courtship.htm and http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/dompoe.htm If they didn't go read those and do a 180 in their way of dealing with me, they were not the sub for me. I am a woman and BDSM is a RELATIONSHIP to me. I expected them to put as much energy into things as I was.

The ones that Akasha mentions, the can't shut up about their kink/fetishes, I just wrote off as horny geeks looking to scratch their itch. While I'd give them the links, very few of them ever managed to actually adjust their attitude. They thought it was about their fantasy instead of about mine.

I met my husband at a Club FEm play party. We'd not known each other prior. (We had munches in several locations, and attended different munches.) At the party, I observed him actually SERVING rather than partying like the other subs. He was attentive to the women, entertaining when engaged in conversation and never presumptuous. I invited him to play. That night was magic. I've never had a sub give himself so totally to me.

While he made it clear he was interested in me, I did the courting. I was the one who arranged dates and dinners. (Yes, he paid.) I was the one who drove and decided what, where and when. I wasn't being "Domme" .. I'm just naturally controlling and take charge. It works for me to have a man who lets me be the aggressor in all things. (My friends and family have always referred to my boyfriends as pussywhipped.. sigh) I DO expect to know that I'm not just life support for a strap-on or flogger to him and for him to be eager to see me, but I wish to guide how things progress.

That being said, my husband did bring up the idea of marriage first. I'd been thinking about it also, but he beat me to the punch on that one. *smiles* Our marriage very closely resembles a 1950's traditional marriage, with me in the husband role. (Other than the fact that my "wife" works and I don't.) We're both very comfortable with this and don't even consider it to be Power Exchange. It is just the way we are.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to SadisticPrincess)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 2:08:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeachMystress

Oh YES. I got so sick of sub men and their fantasy that they don't have to do anything but be there to hold up their end of the BDSM relationship. I was constantly giving subs links to http://www.femalesincontrol.com/courtship.htm and http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/dompoe.htm If they didn't go read those and do a 180 in their way of dealing with me, they were not the sub for me. I am a woman and BDSM is a RELATIONSHIP to me. I expected them to put as much energy into things as I was.

The ones that Akasha mentions, the can't shut up about their kink/fetishes, I just wrote off as horny geeks looking to scratch their itch. While I'd give them the links, very few of them ever managed to actually adjust their attitude. They thought it was about their fantasy instead of about mine.

While he made it clear he was interested in me, I did the courting. I was the one who arranged dates and dinners. (Yes, he paid.) I was the one who drove and decided what, where and when. I wasn't being "Domme" .. I'm just naturally controlling and take charge. It works for me to have a man who lets me be the aggressor in all things. (My friends and family have always referred to my boyfriends as pussywhipped.. sigh) I DO expect to know that I'm not just life support for a strap-on or flogger to him and for him to be eager to see me, but I wish to guide how things progress.

That being said, my husband did bring up the idea of marriage first. I'd been thinking about it also, but he beat me to the punch on that one. *smiles* Our marriage very closely resembles a 1950's traditional marriage, with me in the husband role. (Other than the fact that my "wife" works and I don't.) We're both very comfortable with this and don't even consider it to be Power Exchange. It is just the way we are.

Oh I wish every sub would read and heed this advice including reading about courtship (it is soooooooo infinitely important).
We would all be so much better off.. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to BeachMystress)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 8:39:02 AM

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quote:

I was the one who drove and decided what, where and when.

The what, where and when part, I'll have to think about more, but I do like your style when it comes to driving LOL! And that's a compliment.

Edited to add : I've never met a woman yet that doesn't like drive - And I'd much rather pay attention to her than the road.

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 7/24/2005 9:41:30 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to BeachMystress)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 11:02:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
Edited to add : I've never met a woman yet that doesn't like drive - And I'd much rather pay attention to her than the road.
- The Ranger

Well, you haven't met me, lol, or you'd know my sub does the driving... Maybe I should have editted that part out of my copy on the post, lol. The only time I drive is if I don't trust your driving skills; otherwise, the boy drives, and I sit back and watch him.

M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 12:21:19 PM

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Joined: 5/15/2004
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What occurs to me is that there is one thing that seems to be more or less universal among women and Dommes in particular, but beyond that everyone seems to be different.

I am a sub male who has always wanted to have good conversation on a variety of topics before talking about (or doing) fetish/kink interests. I may be unusual in that if the first conversation is not satisfactory to me, I will not call back, and have many times discontinued potential relationships because there was little conversational rapport (I don't blame anyone - real conversational rapport is not always possible between perfectly intelligent people for various reasons).

So I fully agree with the originator of this topic that conversational/vanilla rapport is a necessary condition of carrying on into a meaningful relationship. But it is not enough, since women vary enormously in what they would consider "good courtship skills" in a submissive. Judging by the contributions to this thread above, some want to drive the car, some want to be driven, for example, and there are dozens of dimensions of courtship on which peope differ (who pays, who decides, who talks, gifts, language used, flirting, gestures etc. etc).

So if conversational rapport is necessary but not sufficient, does anyone have a theory of what the other necessary conditions would be? This might be a marketable recipe for sub males!!

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 1:41:34 PM

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From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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quote:

Edited to add : I've never met a woman yet that doesn't like drive - And I'd much rather pay attention to her than the road.

Actually I HATE to drive. I just happen to hate being out of control more. LoL

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 5:06:41 PM

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I dont mind driving or not.
Courtship I think simple things, like trying to find out favourite drink. If she is coming into town to meet you and staying at a hotel, make her up a care package. Information about local area, flowers. I am not talking about 'using all your money up like a money slave' the care package could have free information about the sights, but all together. Information abouttransportation if neither have a car. If she drinks tea ensure it is in the hotel room. This isnt expensive, but certainly shows a lot of thought.

(in reply to BeachMystress)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 5:18:43 PM

MzK

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Amen, to this. A guy contacted me yesterday with the most ridiculous mumbo jumbo I've ever heard. I couldn't make any sense out of it at all. I finally realized it was his attempt at being submissive with me and wrote him saying I didn't have any idea what he was talking about and suggested we just talk like he would to any other woman. That helped.
This is a pretty new arena for me too, but hey, there's such a thing as research.

(in reply to BeachMystress)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 7:45:17 PM

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Nice post... Conversation is great, but I could have great conversation with almost anyone.
With a man who is interested in me, I expect more... I'll take pieces of beachmystress (hope it's okay to borrow from her, and show what I mean).
A)Read the link

quote:

http://www.femalesincontrol.com/courtship.htm
B)I observed him actually SERVING rather than partying like the other subs. He was attentive to the women, entertaining when engaged in conversation and never presumptuous.
C)he made it clear he was interested in me
D)Yes, he paid

Don't pay so that she can owe you something; pay to show her you're a gentleman, to show that you're a generous human being (Don't skimp on the tip), and to show that you will do everything in your power to be a good provider should she ever need one.

quote:

E) I'm just naturally controlling and take charge

I too am pretty controlling, but very reasonable; If I happen to give you directions/suggestions with which you disagree, you state why you disagree, you don't just do something else without first consulting moi.
F)

quote:

I DO expect to know that I'm not just life support for a strap-on or flogger to him and for him to be eager to see me

That does not equal once/month, unless we're more than 3 states apart, or in different countries (but you should express your desire to see her often if you feel like, than she'll tell you how often is feasible/good for her.
G)

quote:

Our marriage resembles 1950's traditional marriage, with me in the husband role. Other than the fact that my [b]"wife" works and I don't.) We're both very comfortable with this and don't even consider it to be Power Exchange. It is just the way we are.

If you love or are seriously interested in someone weather or not she is wealthy or has a job at all should not matter to you.
Never, ever ask her why she works part time (unless she's asking you to get a second job to pay her bills).
If she expresses being stressed in any way, ask if there is something you can do to help, and do it! Don't just make idle conversation like "I wish there was something I could do."

I have Never met a woman in any country/continent (I've been to several countries and 3 continents thus far) who loves cheap men. So practice generosity however you can, and whenever you can (obviously not to your detriment), it's good for the soul, and will probably get you loved or at least laid en route to potential love.

...Before anyone decides to flame me for this, remember these are my thoughts and experiences, my ways, and my advice based on that.. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to NYsubforbbw)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 8:03:58 PM

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P.S. Don't talk about how lavish you live unless you include her in such lavishness, and don't mention how financially "comfortable" you are unless you are intending to use some of it impressing her that you're not cheap, and you will share what you have (weather $50 or $50,000)...
The only time your financial comfort is important is if you use it to treat yourself and the object of your affection well... Otherwise, keep it to yourself unless/until you're asked or until you two are talking about financial responsibilities within the home you two will share. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to NYsubforbbw)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 8:47:25 PM

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There is no successful template for courting a dominant woman, or any woman for that matter. Forget about the generalizations and similarities, I think a guy just needs use his God-given, male intuitive prowess and proceed from there.......

- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 8:59:34 PM

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Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
There is no successful template for courting a dominant woman, or any woman for that matter. Forget about the generalizations and similarities, I think a guy just needs use his God-given, male intuitive prowess and proceed from there.......
- The Ranger

I would agree if I hadn't met a man or two who's intuition needs a lot of help/guidance.
I think my suggestions are at least of the do no harm genre...
No woman will decide you're not worth her while if you follow some simple rules (paying attention, being generous, and making her feel special). M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 7/25/2005 12:02:17 AM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 9:02:07 PM

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Ok....I totally understand - You equate driving with control. After reading many of your posts, the one thing that rings true about you {at least for me} is that you are a no-nonsense Lady {Which is a quality I find attractive}. I'm wondering..... and you don't have to answer - have you ever made any guys walk home? LOL!

- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to BeachMystress)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 9:14:47 PM

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From: Iowa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NYsubforbbw
So if conversational rapport is necessary but not sufficient, does anyone have a theory of what the other necessary conditions would be? This might be a marketable recipe for sub males!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
Conversation is great, but I could have great conversation with almost anyone.
With a man who is interested in me, I expect more...

Okay, so we are going beyond rapport and collecting some of those ingredients that NYsubforbbw mentioned. Does everyone agree with these, or is it a question of personal preferences?

quote:

quote:

http://www.femalesincontrol.com/courtship.htm
B)I observed him actually SERVING rather than partying like the other subs. He was attentive to the women, entertaining when engaged in conversation and never presumptuous.
C)he made it clear he was interested in me

This favorable quote of BeachMystress I think has two points:

1. Attitude should be focused on others, not on oneself

2. Step out of your comfort zone and take the risk of rejection.

quote:

Don't pay so that she can owe you something; pay to show her you're a gentleman, to show that you're a generous human being (Don't skimp on the tip), and to show that you will do everything in your power to be a good provider should she ever need one.

3. Don't try to use money as a powerbase by which you can manipulate her. Use money (which is power) responsibly and to promote goodness.

quote:

If I happen to give you directions/suggestions with which you disagree, you state why you disagree, you don't just do something else without first consulting moi.

4. Be willing to hand over power and don't take it back by unilaterally refusing to cooperate. Discuss before you reject.

quote:

quote:

I DO expect to know that I'm not just life support for a strap-on or flogger to him and for him to be eager to see me

[/size=2]That does not equal once/month, unless we're more than 3 states apart, or in different countries (but you should express your desire to see her often if you feel like, than she'll tell you how often is feasible/good for her.

5. Be eager to see her. She wants to be liked and loved as a person. So show that affection by making an effort to be with her.

quote:

If you love or are seriously interested in someone weather or not she is wealthy or has a job at all should not matter to you.
Never, ever ask her why she works part time (unless she's asking you to get a second job to pay her bills).

6. Finances are her concern.

quote:

If she expresses being stressed in any way, ask if there is something you can do to help, and do it! Don't just make idle conversation like "I wish there was something I could do."

7. Be emotionally available - take the risk of falling on your face by trying to be there for her.

quote:

I have Never met a woman in any country/continent (I've been to several countries and 3 continents thus far) who loves cheap men. So practice generosity however you can, and whenever you can (obviously not to your detriment)

8. Don't be a penny-pincher. (This is the negative version of #3)

quote:

Don't talk about how lavish you live unless you include her in such lavishness, and don't mention how financially "comfortable" you are unless you are intending to use some of it impressing her that you're not cheap, <snip> Otherwise, keep it to yourself unless/until you're asked or until you two are talking about financial responsibilities within the home you two will share.

I think this is #3, re-emphasized and expanded.

quote:

...Before anyone decides to flame me for this, remember these are my thoughts and experiences, my ways, and my advice based on that..

So.... are they values held only by M or are they values which are more universal?

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

RE: Courtship and "pursuit" - 7/24/2005 10:40:20 PM

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This are qualities or attributes that I also endorse. When My submissive was courting Me he used to take the train home from work, get the car and drive back to the office, pick up a fancy dinner for Me and drive an hour to bring Me the dinner. He would buy a burger for himself because we like radically different foods. He would have roughly an hour with Me (and have to shower and eat during that time) before he headed back into the city to be at his second job. All this because he knew that the food he was bringing would be a delight for Me to eat.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to onceburned)

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