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RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 6:48:56 AM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I have what I consider a healthy disrespect for psychiatry, mostly because of all the times they got it wrong: frontal lobotomies, electro-shock therapy, sadism, masochism, homosexuality, tranquilizers for house-wives, etc.

I challenge the 'science' because it can only work with statistical averages, not with objectivity (such as exists in math and physics).

Humans are the most adaptable creatures on the planet. How do you define "normal" for such a species?

Do you have a healthy disrespect for doctors because they used leeches at one time?

Velvet, I think the differences between Medicine and Psychiatry suitably obvious that intelligent people can distinguish between the two.

Even so, doctors still make mistakes in diagnosis and in surgery.

quote:

If not for psycotropic meds, mental wards would be overflowing. Medications like clozapine, lithium, depakote etc make it possible for people to live their lives outside of mental institutions.

All very true.

But I have experience with a woman whom the shrinks sent for electro-shock therapy because she couldn't tell them she'd been raped by an uncle because she was afraid her father would kill her uncle if he knew.

Mis-diagnosis of her problem.

A 'science' that depends upon everyone using english the same way, that depends upon the patient self-reporting events, that has no objective way for determining an illness, but must rely on a statistical analysis of symptoms to find a 'best-fit' diagnosis, is not a 'science' I'll be relying upon any time soon.

That's not to say it doesn't work for some people, only that it is not reliable enough for me to respect.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 6:55:07 AM

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Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Situational depression is different than clinical depression. One arises from a traumatic situation and is short lived, the other is a life long condition caused by an imbalance in the brain of seratonin, dopamine, norepenephrine. i am glad you overcame your depression, imagine spending a life like that? Or spending most of your life like that until some doctor offered you a medication that lifted that awful cloud from your life.

Velvet, I do live with depression. See an earlier post of mine on this.

Recent events aggravated it, but as I have lived with it and learned to cope with it I've never been on meds and I am not about to start.

To see the world as it is naturally results in depression. Only hope and wishful thinking can counter that, and I'm too much of a realist to indulge.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 6:57:15 AM

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Situational depression is different than clinical depression. One arises from a traumatic situation and is short lived, the other is a life long condition caused by an imbalance in the brain of seratonin, dopamine, norepenephrine. i am glad you overcame your depression, imagine spending a life like that? Or spending most of your life like that until some doctor offered you a medication that lifted that awful cloud from your life.

Velvet, I do live with depression. See an earlier post of mine on this.

Recent events aggravated it, but as I have lived with it and learned to cope with it I've never been on meds and I am not about to start.

To see the world as it is naturally results in depression. Only hope and wishful thinking can counter that, and I'm too much of a realist to indulge.

There is a difference between
'situational depression' such as being depressed over pollution.. and
'chemical depression' which is there because of a chemical imbalance.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 6:57:23 AM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

ECT is still used today to treat severe depression. It does not 'wipe out' the integral parts that make up a person.

Then perhaps it is done differently today.

The woman I spoke of lost years of memories.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to camille65)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:00:48 AM

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Velvet, I think the differences between Medicine and Psychiatry suitably obvious that intelligent people can distinguish between the two.

Even so, doctors still make mistakes in diagnosis and in surgery.

You do realize that psychiatry is a sub speciality of medicine? All fields of medicine have had their problems - just one example that pops into my mind is phen phen - how many people died before that was yanked from the market.

Medical conditions get misdiagnosed a lot. People need to present their symptoms accurately to the doctors, which many don't for a variety of reasons - embarassment, fear, forgetfulness, not realizing it was significant etc.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:01:16 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Situational depression is different than clinical depression. One arises from a traumatic situation and is short lived, the other is a life long condition caused by an imbalance in the brain of seratonin, dopamine, norepenephrine. i am glad you overcame your depression, imagine spending a life like that? Or spending most of your life like that until some doctor offered you a medication that lifted that awful cloud from your life.

Velvet, I do live with depression. See an earlier post of mine on this.

Recent events aggravated it, but as I have lived with it and learned to cope with it I've never been on meds and I am not about to start.

To see the world as it is naturally results in depression. Only hope and wishful thinking can counter that, and I'm too much of a realist to indulge.

There is a difference between
'situational depression' such as being depressed over pollution.. and
'chemical depression' which is there because of a chemical imbalance.

Thank you, Camille.

The thing is, the symptoms can be similar: lethargy, lack of motivation for example. But only the chemical depression can be treated effectively.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to camille65)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:08:16 AM

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Velvet, I do live with depression. See an earlier post of mine on this.

Recent events aggravated it, but as I have lived with it and learned to cope with it I've never been on meds and I am not about to start.

To see the world as it is naturally results in depression. Only hope and wishful thinking can counter that, and I'm too much of a realist to indulge.

You stated this in a previous post: They would not be a problem unless they led to a deeper, suicidal depression (and fortunately in my case they did not). I am pretty much fully-functional again.

i don't agree with your theory that to see the world as it really is results in depression. Maybe it makes you depressed but thats not a result in everyone. Did you ever consider it could be your way of denial? You don't trust psychiarty so you make up an excuse not to get treated. Many people live with low level depression - i believe it's called dysthymic disorder.

Anyone whose struggled with clinical depression finds themselves not able to function - for long periods of time. Yes it does get better without meds sometimes but relapse is common.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:08:52 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Velvet, I think the differences between Medicine and Psychiatry suitably obvious that intelligent people can distinguish between the two.

Even so, doctors still make mistakes in diagnosis and in surgery.

You do realize that psychiatry is a sub speciality of medicine? All fields of medicine have had their problems - just one example that pops into my mind is phen phen - how many people died before that was yanked from the market.

Medical conditions get misdiagnosed a lot. People need to present their symptoms accurately to the doctors, which many don't for a variety of reasons - embarassment, fear, forgetfulness, not realizing it was significant etc.

Indeed.

The difference is that medicine can detect germs, damaged areas of the body, etc. There is objective, concrete evidence of a wide variety of conditions.

The same can be said for mental illnesses with organic causes: brain damage, tumours, etc.

It is when we get into mental illness without any detectable organic cause that my suspicion mounts.

"Delusion" is the condition where you believe something the majority disbelieves. Thus, belief in God is not delusional, despite no concrete evidence available, while belief in an equally elusive invisible 6 foot tall pink rabbit is "delusional" because most people believe it doesn't exist.

This is the kind of 'logic' used: statistical averages.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:12:55 AM

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Joined: 7/2/2004
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i am replying to both you Bob, and you Velvetears,

you can often find an attitude of instant fix amoung many. patients just want to take pills that make everything go away, and some doctors just want to hand them out. to many people dont want to take responsiblity for thier own condition. they dont seem to want to learn about thier illnesses, or take the steps to learn the things that they need to function in the world.

(this actually stems into the OP as well)

for any of us that do have mental/emotional issues, those triggers, those nuaces within ourselves that we monitor are something that we eventually have to divulge to our partners. for those that dont act as thier own advocate, they fail to learn those ticks. they arent ever aware of when thier own system goes screwy, much less are they able to share that information with anyone else. that is a failure to themselves and to others.

i think this is especially true within a power exchange based relationship. sooner or later the most initimate part of ourselves will be shared with another. that resposiblity is shared. if the suffering individual doesnt have a grasp on thier own system, how can another be expected to?

hope i didnt ramble about to badly and that this makes sense. no sleep as of yet..

lee

_____________________________

I am so not right, that I left..

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:15:41 AM

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

The difference is that medicine can detect germs, damaged areas of the body, etc. There is objective, concrete evidence of a wide variety of conditions.

The same can be said for mental illnesses with organic causes: brain damage, tumours, etc.

It is when we get into mental illness without any detectable organic cause that my suspicion mounts.

"Delusion" is the condition where you believe something the majority disbelieves. Thus, belief in God is not delusional, despite no concrete evidence available, while belief in an equally elusive invisible 6 foot tall pink rabbit is "delusional" because most people believe it doesn't exist.

This is the kind of 'logic' used: statistical averages.

Psychiatrists study neurotransmitters - it's not voodoo. Delusions are belief in something that isn't real - hearing voices and seeing things that are not there. There are medications that can help people with delusions.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:16:44 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Velvet, I do live with depression. See an earlier post of mine on this.

Recent events aggravated it, but as I have lived with it and learned to cope with it I've never been on meds and I am not about to start.

To see the world as it is naturally results in depression. Only hope and wishful thinking can counter that, and I'm too much of a realist to indulge.

You stated this in a previous post: They would not be a problem unless they led to a deeper, suicidal depression (and fortunately in my case they did not). I am pretty much fully-functional again.

i don't agree with your theory that to see the world as it really is results in depression. Maybe it makes you depressed but thats not a result in everyone. Did you ever consider it could be your way of denial? You don't trust psychiarty so you make up an excuse not to get treated. Many people live with low level depression - i believe it's called dysthymic disorder.

Anyone whose struggled with clinical depression finds themselves not able to function - for long periods of time. Yes it does get better without meds sometimes but relapse is common.

I was told by the shrink whose out-patient clinic I attended that my depression was a sane and rational response to the world and the trends current at that time.

There was no further need to attend, it was up to me to cope with the knowledge the best I could.

Yes, other people react differently: compartmentalization, an overly-optimistic hope in humanity's ingenuity or capacity to work together, faith in God ...

Far too many Christian Fundamentalists are not only seeing the same things, but cheering it on as the "End Times". Scientists world-wide are doing all they can to alert governments of the dangers.

I could wish it was my imagination, but far too many people these days are seeing what I was seeing some thirty years ago.

The depression was the result of being powerless to stop the trends that are wrecking our world.

A sane and rational response to the situation and trends in the world then, and now.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:21:03 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leakylee

i am replying to both you Bob, and you Velvetears,

you can often find an attitude of instant fix amoung many. patients just want to take pills that make everything go away, and some doctors just want to hand them out. to many people dont want to take responsiblity for thier own condition. they dont seem to want to learn about thier illnesses, or take the steps to learn the things that they need to function in the world.

(this actually stems into the OP as well)

for any of us that do have mental/emotional issues, those triggers, those nuaces within ourselves that we monitor are something that we eventually have to divulge to our partners. for those that dont act as thier own advocate, they fail to learn those ticks. they arent ever aware of when thier own system goes screwy, much less are they able to share that information with anyone else. that is a failure to themselves and to others.

i think this is especially true within a power exchange based relationship. sooner or later the most initimate part of ourselves will be shared with another. that resposiblity is shared. if the suffering individual doesnt have a grasp on thier own system, how can another be expected to?

hope i didnt ramble about to badly and that this makes sense. no sleep as of yet..

lee

You made several good points, Lee.

"no sleep as of yet"?

No sleep = not good?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to leakylee)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:21:16 AM

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

i understand what you are saying - you can only be as honest and as forthright as you are self aware.

Popping a pill isn't the only treatment. Many psychiatrists will insist you go to therapy in conjunction with psychiatric treatment because taking the pill is only one step in the process of understanding and overcoming your symptoms.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to leakylee)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:28:01 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

The difference is that medicine can detect germs, damaged areas of the body, etc. There is objective, concrete evidence of a wide variety of conditions.

The same can be said for mental illnesses with organic causes: brain damage, tumours, etc.

It is when we get into mental illness without any detectable organic cause that my suspicion mounts.

"Delusion" is the condition where you believe something the majority disbelieves. Thus, belief in God is not delusional, despite no concrete evidence available, while belief in an equally elusive invisible 6 foot tall pink rabbit is "delusional" because most people believe it doesn't exist.

This is the kind of 'logic' used: statistical averages.

Psychiatrists study neurotransmitters - it's not voodoo.

I think that's an over-simplification.

According to the DSM-III (I know there is a more recent version) "Masochism" was not a mental illness unless the patient was distressed over being a masochist.

Which "neurotransmitters" do they study to determine the difference so as to properly treat the condition?

The fact is they try to slot the illness into a known catagory based on self-reporting of the patien. Only when the symptoms do not match up well with any known catagory do they start "studying" anything.

That's why it took so long to get the lady I've mentioned properly diagnosed. The shrinks could see the depressed side, but not the manic side. So they diagnosed it as depression and treated it as such, which of course didn't work.

quote:

Delusions are belief in something that isn't real - hearing voices and seeing things that are not there.

Like God?

quote:

There are medications that can help people with delusions.

And why isn't everyone who believes in God diagnosed "delusional" and treated?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:28:30 AM

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

The depression was the result of being powerless to stop the trends that are wrecking our world.

If i were you i would have gotten a new therapist because he/she doesn't sound very competent. Many people see the same trends you do and don't live their lives depressed because of it. Seems to me the obsession with the trends is the problem leading to the depression.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:31:01 AM

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

At least when a person has depression ... then can take meds and function normally.

quote:

Not true in all cases.

I knew a chronic depressive (the mother of a woman I dated) who was so messed up on prescription meds she couldn't function at all.

And what of caffeine addicts, or choc-aholics, or religious zealots, or workaholics - addiction manifests itself in many ways.

good points made here, my son is current going thru treatment for depression.
Not every med prescribed may may effective , I actually had to take my son to the ER as he started having both serious physical and behavioural side effects from a medication he was prescribed, the choice of what meds to use can be trial and error at first and not all are going to produce positive effects With a lot of meds the is a weaning on period that can actually make the patient worse for a while while they are adjusting to the meds, often a 6 to 8 week period. My son was fortunate that his work places medical center took his complaints very serious, and arranged to have him sent to a doctor, for counselling and even and inpatient clinic, partners and spouses also can suffer, in my sons case his spouse of 7 years decided she could no longer handle so threw him out at the same period as he was beginning treatment, which really sent him into a major tailspin, he is now into 6 weeks of treatment and things are still far from perfect though better and he is just starting his 25 day inpatient stay for further assessment and in order to learn how to cope with . his current problem is suspected to have stem from former repeated Ecstasy usage which happens to destroy the cells that produce seritonin.

I wanted to add this so that others learn that taking a pill does not mean an instant fix. It needs to be the right medication, that a medication adjustment period period may be required and also that addition professional help may be needed as well, also if a person is taking recreational drugs on top of it can affect the prescription meds effect, so one not only needs to know that a partner is on medications but what stages they are in with treatment, are they taking it consistently if required so as not be needing to go thru a transition period in which they may become worse before getting better and if they are taking other medication (non precribed) that could alter the prescribed meds effectiveness.

And as Bob mentioned there are other types of addictions, if I don't my caffeine fix I am proned to headaches even the same with cigarettes but on top of I get quite antsy/edgy and even moody if I go too long without , so if I went on an extended period without I likely would not make a very good play partner

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:35:37 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Many people see the same trends you do and ...

Thank you for validating my argument.

Psychiatry relies heavily on statistical averages to decide what is and what is not "normal".

"Many people" are not scientists whose life-work deals with the issues that concern me. Shall we say all those scientists who warn of catastrophe are delusional because they do not see the same future as your "many people"?

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:36:52 AM

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Which "neurotransmitters" do they study to determine the difference so as to properly treat the condition?

The fact is they try to slot the illness into a known catagory based on self-reporting of the patien. Only when the symptoms do not match up well with any known catagory do they start "studying" anything.

That's why it took so long to get the lady I've mentioned properly diagnosed. The shrinks could see the depressed side, but not the manic side. So they diagnosed it as depression and treated it as such, which of course didn't work.

quote:

Delusions are belief in something that isn't real - hearing voices and seeing things that are not there.

Like God?

quote:

There are medications that can help people with delusions.

And why isn't everyone who believes in God diagnosed "delusional" and treated?

Lot's of medical symptoms overlap and get misdiagnosed as well - Look at fibromyalgia as just one example. No way to test for it, you have to rely on the patients reporting of symptoms. i am not saying psychiatry is an exact science with no mistakes or misdiagnoses, i am just saying neither is medicine either.

As to the question bolded above - if you actually think you hear gods voice or see god than you are delusional. In fact many delusional people report they can do just those things, even to the extent they believe they are god. Having a belief in something like god is a far cry from being delusional - it's called faith Bob and it's been around a very long time, i would venture to say the majority of people have it than not.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:39:45 AM

Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

Not every med prescribed may may effective ...

Good info there.

quote:

And as Bob mentioned there are other types of addictions, if I don't my caffeine fix I am proned to headaches even the same with cigarettes but on top of I get quite antsy/edgy and even moody if I go too long without , so if I went on an extended period without I likely would not make a very good play partner

lol

I was thinking of my cup of tea. A day just doesn't start right without my cup of tea.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Maya2001)

RE: "Partners on behavioural Meds..." - 10/3/2007 7:42:03 AM

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Many people see the same trends you do and ...

Thank you for validating my argument.

Psychiatry relies heavily on statistical averages to decide what is and what is not "normal".

"Many people" are not scientists whose life-work deals with the issues that concern me. Shall we say all those scientists who warn of catastrophe are delusional because they do not see the same future as your "many people"?

Try going back and read what i actually said and not take my quote out of context. i won't bother to requote here, anyone who wants to can go back and read what i actually said. You want to live in a world of gloom and doom and sit around all depresssed because you are powerless to stop anything. i think thats a waste of life. i would prefer to see the positives life has to offer and focus on the good things. Doesn't mean i negate the bad things just that they are not going to determine the quailty of my life. Good luck to you Bob.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Bobkgin)

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