RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant"

RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (Full Version)

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Celeste43 -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:13:08 PM)
Because they aren't really compatible. If they were compatible, they wouldn't be unable to submit. Of course, there are so-called tops who don't actually dominate, they're just in it for the on demand sex and there are dominants who aren't safe to submit to. No intelligent person will surrender control over important things to someone who has not proved themselves competent of controlling that area.

Squeakers -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:16:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe Why do you think this sort of thing happens? What could possibly cause someone who claims submission,to want such control over the one he or she supposedly wishes to surrender to? Cool thought provoking question. My personal feeling is, in order to control another person or to give control to another person you must have mastered control over yourself. As a submissive, I enjoy the concept of giving up control to another but honestly I feel that I have the ultimate control. If he says, Squeakers get in the corner, I can either walk over and stand in the corner or I can keep my feet planted firmly where they are at. Knowing that I have control over my own actions, lessens my fear of turning control over to him. There was a time in my life when I did not have control over my own actions, and I sincerely found myself trying to control him simply out of fear that if he asked me to do something that I was sincerely afraid to do or went against my better judgement, I'd be forced to do so simply because I lacked the control to say, "Umm no I am not doing that." I think for me, the fact that I lacked control over me, really caused so much fear that I simply could not hand over control to anyone else, and because deep down I needed control over something, I'd try to control him or the situation. Once I mastered control over myself, I learned, what I could control and what I could not. I could not control what he was going to ask of me, the only thing I could control was my reaction to the command. I think in going along with that is trust, trust in his command and trust in my reaction. Time, communication and openness with each other, predicts his command and my reaction. If he says, Squeakers go stand in the corner, I'll walk over and get in the corner. He knows this. If he says, "Squeakers, take this gun, walk down to the local liquor store, demand the cash in the register and shoot to kill if that old fart doesn't comply." He know my reaction is going to be, "What kinda drugs are you smoking? I am going to bed." It is it something somewhere in between and I am not sure, he knows, I will say, "I am not comfortable with this, can we discuss it?" Depending on my reaction to it during that conversation, he will ultimately decide whether I will do it or not and because I trust, I have no problems, obeying if that is his wish. I hope that made sense---it's late and I should have been in bed an hour ago.

applecandy -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:22:45 PM)
You may be the only one that took my point, RRafe. As much as I may get flamed for saying this, I think most (if not all) Dom/mes should at least attempt to submit to someone else - to fully experience what they're doing to someone else. It takes a special spirit to properly give up control as completely as what's being spoken on here. Patience is a necessity - from both sides - as well as communication with both each other and with the self. It's not fair to venture into a relationship like this - or any relationship, for that matter - without a damned good grip on your own psyche or the explicit understanding of other conditions. Some subs don't want full domination. I know I don't want to break in a new relationship with a Dom OR a sub at this point. That doesn't, however, keep me from enjoying the play within very specific boundaries. If I do find someone with whom I'm comfortable enough to play, it will be on my terms, even though I'll most likely bottom. It's just that kind of situation.

RRafe -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:24:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Squeakers quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe Why do you think this sort of thing happens? What could possibly cause someone who claims submission,to want such control over the one he or she supposedly wishes to surrender to? Cool thought provoking question. My personal feeling is, in order to control another person or to give control to another person you must have mastered control over yourself. As a submissive, I enjoy the concept of giving up control to another but honestly I feel that I have the ultimate control. If he says, Squeakers get in the corner, I can either walk over and stand in the corner or I can keep my feet planted firmly where they are at. Knowing that I have control over my own actions, lessens my fear of turning control over to him. There was a time in my life when I did not have control over my own actions, and I sincerely found myself trying to control him simply out of fear that if he asked me to do something that I was sincerely afraid to do or went against my better judgement, I'd be forced to do so simply because I lacked the control to say, "Umm no I am not doing that." I think for me, the fact that I lacked control over me, really caused so much fear that I simply could not hand over control to anyone else, and because deep down I needed control over something, I'd try to control him or the situation. Once I mastered control over myself, I learned, what I could control and what I could not. I could not control what he was going to ask of me, the only thing I could control was my reaction to the command. I think in going along with that is trust, trust in his command and trust in my reaction. Time, communication and openness with each other, predicts his command and my reaction. If he says, Squeakers go stand in the corner, I'll walk over and get in the corner. He knows this. If he says, "Squeakers, take this gun, walk down to the local liquor store, demand the cash in the register and shoot to kill if that old fart doesn't comply." He know my reaction is going to be, "What kinda drugs are you smoking? I am going to bed." It is it something somewhere in between and I am not sure, he knows, I will say, "I am not comfortable with this, can we discuss it?" Depending on my reaction to it during that conversation, he will ultimately decide whether I will do it or not and because I trust, I have no problems, obeying if that is his wish. I hope that made sense---it's late and I should have been in bed an hour ago. makes perfect sense to me. He has the power to ask, you have the power to decide if you want to obey. A smart Dom knows your capabilities-and may push you a bit, but not off the cliff.

NControlofU -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:29:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: applecandy As much as I may get flamed for saying this, I think most (if not all) Dom/mes should at least attempt to submit to someone else - to fully experience what they're doing to someone else. It takes a special spirit to properly give up control as completely as what's being spoken on here. No, I;m not going to flame you. You can have whatever crazy thought you want. It just aint gonna happen with me. I dont need to fully experience anything that I dont want to experience. My enjoyment is to inflict pain on someone else, not myself. And, I am fortunate to have a slave that loves to suffer the pain I inflict. I give, she recieves, all are happy. No need to mess with that.

unsureslave -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:33:08 PM)
speaking as a submissive, soon to be slave... i had asked my new Master if i would be bound; He said no, that He preferred His slaves willing and unrestrained. after more conversations, i learned i would be whipped in several areas that i have never had punished before. i then asked if He would please bind me then... not because i want to control the situation or have some fantasy of being all tied up & whipped, but becuase i know i will have problems maintaining position so He can punish me as He likes. luckily He graciously agreed. i think that some Doms/Masters recognize the limitations or lack of experience of their subs/slaves and grant minor requests to help put their subs/slaves at ease so eventually they will grow into what their Master wishes. i dont really see it as a weakness at all.

RRafe -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:34:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: applecandy You may be the only one that took my point, RRafe. As much as I may get flamed for saying this, I think most (if not all) Dom/mes should at least attempt to submit to someone else - to fully experience what they're doing to someone else. It takes a special spirit to properly give up control as completely as what's being spoken on here. Patience is a necessity - from both sides - as well as communication with both each other and with the self. It's not fair to venture into a relationship like this - or any relationship, for that matter - without a damned good grip on your own psyche or the explicit understanding of other conditions. Some subs don't want full domination. I know I don't want to break in a new relationship with a Dom OR a sub at this point. That doesn't, however, keep me from enjoying the play within very specific boundaries. If I do find someone with whom I'm comfortable enough to play, it will be on my terms, even though I'll most likely bottom. It's just that kind of situation. I totally understand. When I first started playing with bdsm I was seeing a woman who identified as a Domme. had me do nude housework-a little light bondage play, some sex (the sort she wanted) But she was into strap on sex, and I was afraid of it. I told her it was too soon for me, and she got arrogant. Had her fingers up my ass the third time we played..........Sooooo......I sort of lost some respect for her at that point. In fact, I lost all respect-that wasn't the only issue. And I found out gee-the fantasy novels were a crock of crap. O could have kneed Sir stephen in the crotch and walked away at any time she pleased. Hmm, maybe I better rethink how this domination thing really works. There has to be a mutual attraction, or it's not going to work. I'm in the same boat as you, not looking for anything beyond casual at this time-too much to get in order in my own life to make committments. But yanno? A lot of really GOOD relationships start with no pre planned agendas at all-you just find someone who lights you up-and you go for it.

octavia -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:39:06 PM)
Of course Rover's spot on.... again! Fook man! Give the rest of us a chance to look all super intelly and concise once in a while would ya? [;)]

julietsierra -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:44:03 PM)
My personal view of why this happens has to do with the idea that for many people, this is fun and games. When things cease to be fun and start to take some work, many of the people who were saying "I submit" find themselves saying "except to this" and they start attempting to wrest some of the control back. A perfect example: Someone I know said to me recently, "I know he told me about this from the beginning. I just thought I could play but keep things the way I wanted them to be. I didn't believe he was serious." (we were discussing something very difficult that he'd asked of her and she was venting). My Master once said "He asked if she'd give her right arm for him. She said she would. It was all fun and games after that - until he asked for her right arm." juliet

applecandy -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:47:29 PM)
Exactly. Both of my current relationships came out of left field. I'd known my main sweetie for years and never had an inkling that he was kinky - though looking back, I should've. grin He's the main reason I've explored my Domme side at all, and the same is true for him. We switch like crazy - because that works for us. As a sub, though, I trust him to know my boundaries and push them at a reasonable pace. He's already gotten me to do things I'd never even THOUGHT about doing with anyone else, and it's because he knows where the limits lie. He also trusts me to call when I do get too uncomfortable with something - we would both rather stop a scene briefly than push too hard. Better to play it safe and take our time than to rush it and damage the relationship, right? Your Domme made that mistake. No Dom/me should ever take themselves so seriously as to think that they have the right to steamroll a submissive's limits. If you would like to push them a bit, maybe expand their horizons, it has to be with their consent - which means they have to trust that you'll be reasonable and patient with them on that front. Could it be possible that the Dom/mes are pushing too hard too fast, and expecting too much from a new sub?

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:50:26 PM)
In response to the OP: I've seen this happen, with friends of mine, and have seen a few relationships go sour because of it. I can't offer any reasons, only observations and my own theory on it. Just as the old saying goes, 'familiarity breeds contempt,' I think I've seen that sometimes slaves lose respect for their Masters and either act out or react to the situations they find themselves in. Masters who love their slaves have often, or so it appeared to me, backed down from their slaves just to keep the peace. It seems to me that the roles assumed by individuals can sometimes wear on them. People cannot always maintain the extremes of a M's/D's relationship. I've known illness, finances and real life stress to wear down the individuals until the power exchange becomes more of a chore to them (at least it appeared to) than it was worth to one or both of the individuals in the relationship to maintain. It must be very frightening, or frustrating, in such an instance for a slave to see his/her Master lose heart or control, and it does not seem terribly surprising that one might react to such a change in the status quo. Sometimes bad attention is better than no attention - the mindset of some, who behave badly in an attempt to manipulate the situation back into a comfort zone where control is more easily ascertained. Again, these are just my thoughts and theory on some of the couples I've been close to, and have been privy to the decline in their relationships. I've also seen very good men, that appeared inherently dominant, grow weary from ankle biters, what I call those passive aggressive naggers who seem - on the surface - to be submissive, but are engaged in a campaign of incessant undermining of their dominants authority. Sometimes, people have very bad relationship skills and will often do things that seem counter-productive and destructive to their own goals. Sometimes, people are just manipulative lying bastards intent upon deceiving others to get what they want. Sometimes, people are just clueless on what to do, how to fix things that go awry and sometimes they are even clueless to the reality for their own dynamic. Why? I've absolutely no idea, except people are more often than not, odd ducks.

RRafe -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 8:51:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: applecandy Exactly. Both of my current relationships came out of left field. I'd known my main sweetie for years and never had an inkling that he was kinky - though looking back, I should've. grin He's the main reason I've explored my Domme side at all, and the same is true for him. We switch like crazy - because that works for us. As a sub, though, I trust him to know my boundaries and push them at a reasonable pace. He's already gotten me to do things I'd never even THOUGHT about doing with anyone else, and it's because he knows where the limits lie. He also trusts me to call when I do get too uncomfortable with something - we would both rather stop a scene briefly than push too hard. Better to play it safe and take our time than to rush it and damage the relationship, right? Your Domme made that mistake. No Dom/me should ever take themselves so seriously as to think that they have the right to steamroll a submissive's limits. If you would like to push them a bit, maybe expand their horizons, it has to be with their consent - which means they have to trust that you'll be reasonable and patient with them on that front. Could it be possible that the Dom/mes are pushing too hard too fast, and expecting too much from a new sub? Arrogance seems to be the mother of all idiocy in this case. I prefer seduction to force-and making the unpleasant seem otherwise. Subs also seem to set limnits from an incomplete understanding of what a thing can be-with the right person. So it can go both ways-and often does.

applecandy -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 9:33:05 PM)
I feel like we're on fairly similar pages, RRafe, and that makes me happy. Make anything seem sexy, and it automatically opens doors that may not have been there before, and those that were there already sometimes swing wide. It's amazing what things can happen when there's a mutual trust. Subs are much more willing to push limits - even hard ones - when they feel safe and secure, and that takes time to build. It's unfortunate - the feeling I get from the vast majority of Dom/mes that message me on here is that they want immediate and complete submission, without opinion or personality. That's an incredibly unhealthy attitude for both parties. Any sub that's willing to go into a relationship like that without a good deal of background and communication is just asking for trouble. It's one thing for a sub to voluntarily give up opinions and decisions when there's an established rapport and a base of trust, but to do it with such a cavalier attitude - it's truly scary.

welshwmn3 -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 9:34:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe If a sub really desires a place in which she can express her submission........How can she aid her partner in helping that to come to pass? Without becoming the Dom herself? I'm not hisannabelle, but I've had a little bit of experience in this. For me, it was lots and lots and lots of communication. And finally, when things were just really bad, giving him his collar back. I did not do it for emotional blackmail, but I couldn't submit to a man who didn't seem to want my submission. That was the hardest thing I ever did. Giving him the collar back, however, was the only way I could not be the Dom. As his submissive in an unsatisfying relationship (he not giving me as much control as he said he wanted to give me, and as much as I wanted, which were supposedly compatible) I was doing everything I could to dom him into domming me. I didn't like the brat and btch I was becoming. This was the only way I could stay true to who I am. Fortunately for us, we love each other, and my giving him back his collar wasn't the end of the relationship. We talked, a LOT, about what happened, what went wrong, etc. He finally recollared me as his submissive (in what we called a 'training collar'), and, just recently, he took off the training collar and replaced it with a slave collar. I'm very lucky that it worked out so well. But when I gave him back his collar, I was really expecting that I'd never be his submissive again. I'm so glad I was wrong. And I'm very definately ecstatic to be his* again.

ownedgirlie -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/30/2007 10:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe Why do you think this sort of thing happens? What could possibly cause someone who claims submission,to want such control over the one he or she supposedly wishes to surrender to? I might want that executive level job, and I might have the potential to someday be fully qualified for it, but if suddenly I were put in the position I would not be doing an exemplary job until I learned the ropes...so to speak. That's how my own submission began. I knew what I wanted and needed to be, but it took training, discipline and work to get there, with failings along the way. Just when you think you've given over all control, you discover areas where you're still clinging on to it. And wow when there's that very last bit and then all is given over...that's the tightest being clung to. Then again, for some the fantasy of submitting is far more enjoyable than the reality. And then there's the dominant who lets the submissive control things. There are also those dynamics where control is shared to a certain degree. There's no universal answer to this question, so I can only answer how it was for me.

RCdc -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/31/2007 1:26:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe Why do you think this sort of thing happens? What could possibly cause someone who claims submission,to want such control over the one he or she supposedly wishes to surrender to? Because many s-types are selfish control freaks. the.dark.

MistressPurpleFL -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/31/2007 1:33:05 AM)
There is no TOPPING from the bottom in my world; limits are discussed and basically it is my way or the highway. Submission is a gift that I accept and rules are set but ultimately it is my way.

batshalom -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/31/2007 1:51:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RRafe I know that life will always entail compromises to make things work. But everyone can't be totally happy with everything-all of the time. Sacrifices have to be made. If you back off TOO far from someone throwing a tantrum-they will learn to use it as a lever. Soon, you find yourself living on the other side of the room from where you began. I have seen subs push before-but if they keep pushing, and nothing ever pushes back, or feels too solid to move-the respect goes to hell in a hand basket. Precisely so and I've seen it happen. Pretty soon the Dom becomes ... mm .. henpecked and the whole thing winds up as a major pain, a limp dynamic, the sub passively aggressively (or outright aggressively) controlling the Dom (at least those were their original roles). The way I've seen it, though, the sub is kinda smirky smug about her role and the Dom is miserable.

Jasmyn -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/31/2007 1:51:46 AM)
or as I like to call them ...a 'subinatrix' ...

batshalom -> RE: submissive paradox-controlling the "Dominant" (10/31/2007 2:24:09 AM)
~grinning at Jasmyn~ Clever term.

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