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Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 3:22:50 PM

ownedgirlie

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I was in a conversation with a friend of mine last night in which the ethics of someone close to me was in question. It got me thinking about our sense of ethics and morals, which ones we hold dear and which ones we compromise on.

I made a comment that if I truly lived according to the ethics I believe in, I would have to move off the grid, raise my own food, and make all of my own products. I did some research a long time ago on what companies support what practices and was shocked to learn that if I'm to support everything I believe in, I would not be able to live as I do - not even close. Chances are if you eat, clean, wear make up, or live in a structure of any kind, animals were abused in the making of such products. If you buy paper products or anything packaged in paper products, or have a deck in your yard, can you really be a tree hugger? If you buy plastic goods, do you still support environmental issues? And so on...

I am of the belief we all compromise with our sense of morals, values, principles and ethics; we all just have different boundaries in which we do. So when I see, hear or read someone judging another's ethical behavior, while I agree in the right to judge, I wonder if they are truly without compromise themselves? They are likely not.

Just sharing some thoughts on this strange little Sunday. Any contributions welcome :)

Post #: 1

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 3:32:34 PM

popeye1250

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Yup, there's no absolutes.
If I lived by my morals I'd be worth $200m and live in a 10 b/r house in Malibou, Calif that would use much more energy than Al Gore's with 10 or 15 drop dead gorgeous slaves and about 20 gas burning vehicles!
And I'd try to burn just as much energy as I could.
I wouldn't have a big limo to go out to dinner in I'd have a fully working Fire Truck with a custom interior.
"Gas up to $10 per gallon?" "Ha, ha, ha ha!"

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 3:34:10 PM

Gwynvyd

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I totaly agree with you...

It is soooo slippery to go about and judge others by what we ourselves chose as morals. What right do we have really? unless they are actualy harming someone, or breaking important laws. ( there are many dumb ones.. )

I try to negate as much of my impact of how I live by making up for it.. recycling, giving back to the community.. not wasting food. Making some of my own clothes.. cooking things from scratch so I dont eat more chemicals, or have too make extra packages. ( Buy in bulk there) There is no way in this modern age to 100% negate everything if you want to live in society. But you can make smart choices... and do your best. It is better then saying oh bugger this, it wont help anyways.

BTW those little bottles of water are evil. Refill your galon jugs, get a sippy cup ( sports bottle) and just keep on refilling it. 40 million bottles a day become trash. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5279230/

Gwyn
Tree hugger no matter what.

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 3:46:44 PM

Level

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Hi, owned.

Yes, we all compromise at times. Even being honest with one's self about it, it can be a bitter pill to swallow.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 3:51:27 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

I totaly agree with you...

It is soooo slippery to go about and judge others by what we ourselves chose as morals. What right do we have really? unless they are actualy harming someone, or breaking important laws. ( there are many dumb ones.. )

I try to negate as much of my impact of how I live by making up for it.. recycling, giving back to the community.. not wasting food. Making some of my own clothes.. cooking things from scratch so I dont eat more chemicals, or have too make extra packages. ( Buy in bulk there) There is no way in this modern age to 100% negate everything if you want to live in society. But you can make smart choices... and do your best. It is better then saying oh bugger this, it wont help anyways.

BTW those little bottles of water are evil. Refill your galon jugs, get a sippy cup ( sports bottle) and just keep on refilling it. 40 million bottles a day become trash. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5279230/

Gwyn
Tree hugger no matter what.

Hi Gwynvyd,

I agree, we should do what we can versus saying bugga that :)

I buy organic and free range whenever possible. But I still go out to dinner where they serve generic stuff. I buy Aveda hair and skin and make up products, and Toms of Maine toothpaste, but I still drink bottled waters (I'm glad you put that out there, btw, they are indeed nasty). I won't shop at Walmart, but I don't check every label I buy, either. So I live with awareness of what I do, but with compromise and imperfection.

I appreciate your post, and all other posts as well. Thanks!

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 3:54:32 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Hi, owned.

Yes, we all compromise at times. Even being honest with one's self about it, it can be a bitter pill to swallow.

Hi back atcha, Level.

That's the thing, though. I'm not bitter about what I compromise - I accept that I am a flawed person who makes good choices and perhaps some not so good choices. I would be a hypocrite, however, if I pointed at you and your choices while not also judging my own.

And Popeye, damn you kill me! When you get that Fire Truck, invite me over!! :)

(in reply to Level)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 3:56:49 PM

MistressPurpleFL

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I do not judge others because we ALL have stones in our eyes. I do not eat beef or pork for both health and well my own moral issues. As a child I saw my father kill my pet pig; WE had other pigs that were of age for food use at our ranch but for some reason he decided to use my PET pig. I saw him hang my pig and slit it from it's throat down to it's stomach; my heart broke that day and I did not speak to my father for a couple of months.

I love all types of animals but I also love sushi and baked chicken. I love nature but also love the pages in a book that enthralls me but we should recycle more so other trees won't have to die for us to read books.

It helps to have a solid foundation in COMMON SENSE. We all have some type of moral compass in this life it is upto to an individual to decide what is right or wrong for them. I am not for abusing of animals or of other human beings, we all have choices,

We have to evaluate what is important to us and be mature enough to know that these ideals that are important to US may not be entired as important to the next person.

< Message edited by MistressPurpleFL -- 11/4/2007 3:58:53 PM >

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(in reply to Gwynvyd)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 4:03:10 PM

Termyn8or

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MP; he was trying to teach you an important lesson.

If you didn't get it then, I cannot help.

T

(in reply to MistressPurpleFL)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 4:03:30 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressPurpleFL

It helps to have a solid foundation in COMMON SENSE. We all have some type of moral compass in this life it is upto to an individual to decide what is right or wrong for them.

True enough, but not everyone shares the same Common Sense. If only, though!!

I do very much agree with you about individual choices and moral compasses.

quote:

We have to evaluate what is important to us and be mature enough to know that these ideals that are important to US may not be entired as important to the next person.

I agree with you here, as well. My sister is all over me for eating Tuna and supporting the industry because of the mercury issues. I respect that she and her family avoid the stuff, but I also don't want to be clobbered on the head every time I enjoy my Ahi! :)

Then again, there are ways of expressing one's views without insulting the audience. And while she boycotts tuna, and only supports organic farming, and won't shop at Walmart, she drives a big ol' Durango that gets 10 miles per gallon. Her choice, her compromise.

(in reply to MistressPurpleFL)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 4:06:29 PM

MistressPurpleFL

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Term: My father was not TRYING to teach me lesson. I was raised on a farm so I knew that some of these animals were for FOOD but I also had pets WHO were going to STAY as pets and as a part of my family.

Making assumptions is not a good thing.

_____________________________

"Life is too short to stay in the missionary position" By Mistress PurpleFL

"Nothing caresses like a suede whip in my hand; now let me touch you all over." Be me

"Smile at me with your eyes as you KNEEL to serve me with your HEART!" By me

(in reply to Termyn8or)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 4:10:21 PM

OrionTheWolf

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If common sense were common, then more people would have it.

I believe a few things are being missed. First a person establishes the virtues they wish to aspire to. These are the lofty goals that we base our morality on. Morality is used to see where our actions are in line with those virtues or not. Ethics are created from our morals to guide us towards our virtues. Just because you have not fully attained a virtue, does not mean you are compromising anything. It should give someone pause to be introspective, examine their morals and ethics, and then keep striving towards that virtue.

Orion

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 4:15:29 PM

ownedgirlie

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Thank you for your thoughts, Orion. I am of the belief that many people go through life without first establishing virtues to aspire to. They simply get up each day and live their lives and react to the things around them. Not everyone mind you, but many.

I am also of the belief that we may not ever fully attain our virtues. But we can be aware of them, and we can forgive ourselves for our imperfections and for making choices that don't make us so virtuous.

For example, while I think certain cases of Vivisection are horribly cruel and unnecessary, it would be impossible for me to boycott every manufacturer who engages in such a practice. I will likely never reach that virtue. So, while I go out and buy a Gilette razor, I am knowingly compromising.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 6:29:03 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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I guess I think I'm a step ahead because I KNOW I close my eyes and remain ignorant about things so that I can continue the standard of living I desire.

But the leap from choosing to ignore how chickens and cows are kept so I can buy my leather corsets and leather floggers and enjoy my steaks at any restaurant I like, to choosing to ignore my partners pain when I cheat on him is a very very small one.

Again, I think KNOWING what we ignore and why we ignore it is really a key differentiator.

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 8:52:47 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings ownedgirlie,

I do not use the word imperfection, when speaking of ourselves growing. For some we may identify a virtue that is unattainable, but continue to use it as a bar we always reach for. We should not do too many like that, or else our esteem may suffer, but I believe the harder we push ourselves, and the more harsh life is, that we can in fact become much better people. The crux is that my better, and another person's better, may not be the same thing, or may be in opposition to one another. This is where "good" and "evil" come into play. Those things that are in opposition to our morals, are evil and those things that support our morals are good. Thus the concept of good and evil are man made.

I do not believe that compromise is something that need occur forever, and we should always be introspective, as an alternative may come about in either us or the world around us. Take your razor example; if a company created a razor but did not test it on live animals, then you may have a path to attain a virtue you have identified.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Thank you for your thoughts, Orion. I am of the belief that many people go through life without first establishing virtues to aspire to. They simply get up each day and live their lives and react to the things around them. Not everyone mind you, but many.

I am also of the belief that we may not ever fully attain our virtues. But we can be aware of them, and we can forgive ourselves for our imperfections and for making choices that don't make us so virtuous.

For example, while I think certain cases of Vivisection are horribly cruel and unnecessary, it would be impossible for me to boycott every manufacturer who engages in such a practice. I will likely never reach that virtue. So, while I go out and buy a Gilette razor, I am knowingly compromising.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 9:35:03 PM

juliaoceania

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It sounds like you have hit upon something that many people hate about academic people.. it is called moral relativity.... Post Modernism is full of us monsters that think this way...

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 10:00:16 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It sounds like you have hit upon something that many people hate about academic people.. it is called moral relativity.... Post Modernism is full of us monsters that think this way...

Julia, I'd give you a ride in the firetruck too!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/4/2007 10:38:33 PM

CuriousLord

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Great topic.. wish I had more time to reply. So, maybe later will be better.

In short, compromise is something I can often tolerate since others may have different views. I largely work off of, "If everyone involved in a particular action consents with a general understanding of the action, then it's okay." Collateral damage is something that I consider as causing an effect on others, effectively requiring their consent.

Such as, I don't care who or what has sex in a bedroom. As long as they all consent, I'm fine with a cow, a transexual, and.. well, think up any list. It doesn't have to be legal, as likely shown by the cow inclusion. I'm fine with it. But, say a man and woman, both age 30 and married, have missionary sex that happens to shake the bed and keep the guy in the room below them awake at night. That, I'm not good with, unless the guy below is also fine with it.

There's one thing I can't ever respect. Malice. To me, malicious individuals are vermin: contradictions to anything worthwhile about humanity. (As a note to sadists on this site, sadomasochism practiced with a willing partner is not what I'm talking about here.) I do not exagerate with the term "vermin"; I truly believe that a purely malicious individual is not a human but a pest.

Willful ignorance is also something I have a true distaste for, but not to the same extent as malice. In ways, it can be similar.. looking over facts that one doesn't want to hear to the determent of the reason that I value in life.. though it's not purely to harm others, yet more often simply selfish. Selfishness is a far lesser and more prevalent crime than malice, I believe. I often wonder if true malice even exists.

Alright. Back to work.. hopefully more in tune with the theme of this thread next time I have an oppurtunity to participate here.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 2:25:40 AM

meatcleaver

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If someone spouts on about morals, integrity and honesty, you can bet your life they don't have any themselves.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 2:26:43 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It sounds like you have hit upon something that many people hate about academic people.. it is called moral relativity.... Post Modernism is full of us monsters that think this way...

So you are a fundementalist?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 8:41:31 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Again, I think KNOWING what we ignore and why we ignore it is really a key differentiator.

And what one person ignores versus what another ignores is completely subjective and entirely up to that particular person.

So I can think you're an awful person for buying leather products and you can think I'm an awful person for cheating (using your example). Does that make both of us awful? Neither of us awful? And what if the chickens whose eggs you're enjoying don't care how they're cooped, and what if the guy I'm cheating on could think of worse things I could do?

And so it goes. We all have our differentiators, don't we?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

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