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RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 8:47:14 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Greetings ownedgirlie,

I do not use the word imperfection, when speaking of ourselves growing. For some we may identify a virtue that is unattainable, but continue to use it as a bar we always reach for. We should not do too many like that, or else our esteem may suffer, but I believe the harder we push ourselves, and the more harsh life is, that we can in fact become much better people. The crux is that my better, and another person's better, may not be the same thing, or may be in opposition to one another. This is where "good" and "evil" come into play. Those things that are in opposition to our morals, are evil and those things that support our morals are good. Thus the concept of good and evil are man made.

You speak of good and evil, but do you believe in a grey area? Where some things may not be to our liking, or may not even fit our moral code, but do not fall under what we would describe as evil?

I agree about people having different "betters," no doubt. But I think life is not so black and white. There's something to be said for the power of intention, and maybe that's what you are slightly hitting on. I might have good intentions even though I'm doing bad things. Who's to judge? Who knows my intentions better than me, and better than God or whatever higher power (if any) one might believe in?

Food for thought... :)

quote:

I do not believe that compromise is something that need occur forever, and we should always be introspective, as an alternative may come about in either us or the world around us. Take your razor example; if a company created a razor but did not test it on live animals, then you may have a path to attain a virtue you have identified.

Live well,
Orion

Absolutely. But until such effective razor is developed (effective being the key word), I will be continuing to use the "evil" ones. With the intention that if something better comes along I will use it. So am I being evil? Or are my good intentions negating my less than ethical choice?

Thanks for the discussion. It's an interesting one.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 21

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 8:48:37 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It sounds like you have hit upon something that many people hate about academic people.. it is called moral relativity.... Post Modernism is full of us monsters that think this way...

Indeed, my friend, indeed.

Roar. :)

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 22

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 8:56:35 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

There's one thing I can't ever respect. Malice. To me, malicious individuals are vermin: contradictions to anything worthwhile about humanity. (As a note to sadists on this site, sadomasochism practiced with a willing partner is not what I'm talking about here.) I do not exagerate with the term "vermin"; I truly believe that a purely malicious individual is not a human but a pest.

Hi CuriousLord, thank you for your contribution here.

Malice is along the same lines as "intention", which I just touched upon in a post. If I am intending to do harm by way of my actions, then I find little to be acceptable about such action. If I have no regard for what I am harming, I am no longer compromising, I am simply not considering any damage that may be done. If I know that what I am doing may cause or support harm in any way, then I have a choice to make. There may be times when I choose to go forward with my actions anyway. My reasons for doing so would be the differentiator there in whether or not it was a wise, acceptable, compromising, or appropriate choice. Or maybe it was none of those, but being that I'm an imperfect being, perhaps I can forgive myself that.

quote:

Willful ignorance is also something I have a true distaste for, but not to the same extent as malice. In ways, it can be similar.. looking over facts that one doesn't want to hear to the determent of the reason that I value in life.. though it's not purely to harm others, yet more often simply selfish. Selfishness is a far lesser and more prevalent crime than malice, I believe. I often wonder if true malice even exists.

Ah yes, such as the sociopath or the narcissist or the inconsiderate selfish rat-bastard, lol.

Interesting question about the existence of malice. I believe it does exist, but it does seem to live in the same family as willful ignorance. Interesting.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 23

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 8:57:56 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If someone spouts on about morals, integrity and honesty, you can bet your life they don't have any themselves.

I wouldn't go so far as to bet my life; I value it too much and I'm afraid I'd lose it :)

But I would question how solid is the platform they are standing on, no doubt.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 24

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 9:34:59 AM

CuriousLord

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Afraid another time-crunched response, but, meh.

The malice bit.. yeah, it's moreso for the sake of malice as opposed to ignoring the downsides for others. Like, theft.. if a starving man steals food from a rich man, I see that as a rather minor crime.. he's probably not doing it out of spite. But if a rich man with plenty of fine feasts steals the few scraps of bread from a poor man that he wouldn't even eat himself.. that's just to hurt someone else.. a far greater crime.

I'm not sure if too many even sympathized with me a while back when I made a thread about motorcycles. This individual was riding around my apartment complex at 2AM, looping around it for ten minutes, with one of those pipes that makes his bike sound like a freight train going by. I said that part of me wished he'd die. It was because, before all else, I couldn't see him as doing it for any reason other than being purely malicious.

I think the willful ignorance is extremely common. It's so much part of the human condition. It's in all of us, I believe. Every time we make a look away, or accept something just because it's easier to do it than find some truth. It's there, every time someone says that there's a God or spirit looking over them, because they're just too afraid of being ultimately alone and mortal in a cold and uncaring universe. It's there when we buy shoes labelled "Made in China" or so.. quite possibly produced as a product of child slavery. It's there in law enforcement, when they give over responsbility to their actions to "the law", using it to justify anything they do without regards for the actual implications of their actions. It's in us when we hear people are starving every day in third world countries, yet we find our own comforts and entertainment more important than providing a warm meal to a starving family.

I hate rules, regulations, laws.. etc. At least, those that are followed as "rules" as opposed to "guidelines". This notion, "These are the rules, and I'm simply following them. I have to do as they say", passing off responsiblity for their actions to other, abstract entities.

Ah wells, if I keep ranting, I'll be late for Chem.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 25

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 9:47:29 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
I think the willful ignorance is extremely common. It's so much part of the human condition. It's in all of us, I believe. Every time we make a look away, or accept something just because it's easier to do it than find some truth. It's there, every time someone says that there's a God or spirit looking over them, because they're just too afraid of being ultimately alone and mortal in a cold and uncaring universe. It's there when we buy shoes labelled "Made in China" or so.. quite possibly produced as a product of child slavery. It's there in law enforcement, when they give over responsbility to their actions to "the law", using it to justify anything they do without regards for the actual implications of their actions. It's in us when we hear people are starving every day in third world countries, yet we find our own comforts and entertainment more important than providing a warm meal to a starving family.

Interesting theory, and I'm prone to agree with you on much of it. Once again, however, it dances in that grey area with the compromise I was speaking of.

I'll give this some more thought. Thanks for your post.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 26

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 11:43:22 AM

EPGAH

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I'm curious too, CuriousLord...On the one hand, you say that malicious individuals are "vermin" and/or "not human" (I was called down on a similar statement in a previous thread...How do you get away with it?)
In a subsequent post, you say that some laws are OK to break if they are not doing it out of malice, but out of ignoring the downside for others...then turn around again and complain when such an individual, subhuman or not, inconveniences you (And causes sleep-deprivation, which IS a form of abuse!)
...So which is it? Are laws here to protect us, or should we just ignore whichever ones become too inconvenient for us? Does "need" excuse disobedience, and if so, aren't all of our properties in danger, not just the "rich"? (Getting into Aristotlean theory here...Backing out!)
I am additionally intrigued when you imply that third-world countries are unable to provide themselves a warm meal without resorting to child-slavery...Doesn't that inherently mean that their cultures have failed them? And how do they maintain law and order, with so many "desperate" starving people? They can't ALL be sent to America or other First World countries!

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 27

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 12:03:56 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

I am additionally intrigued when you imply that third-world countries are unable to provide themselves a warm meal without resorting to child-slavery...Doesn't that inherently mean that their cultures have failed them? And how do they maintain law and order, with so many "desperate" starving people? They can't ALL be sent to America or other First World countries!

......have those cultures failed? Was the US a failed culture when slave owning was legal, or was it a developing one? As to maintaining law and order when there are many starving, law and order is generally one of the first things to break down. As a world based on law and order is a good thing that has global consequences, it is one reason why it is in our own best interests to ensure that no-one in the world starves. Feed them there or feed them here.........

(in reply to EPGAH)

Post #: 28

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 12:41:14 PM

EPGAH

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...have those cultures failed? Was the US a failed culture when slave owning was legal, or was it a developing one? As to maintaining law and order when there are many starving, law and order is generally one of the first things to break down. As a world based on law and order is a good thing that has global consequences, it is one reason why it is in our own best interests to ensure that no-one in the world starves. Feed them there or feed them here.........

Apparently it did fail, else it wouldn't have changed...Oddly, people who need to reduce labor WITHOUT turning to illegals introduce machines to do what the extra "workers" used to do...(Some even take the opposite approach and charge people MORE to do it for themselves...Think of that the next time you're pumping gas!

)
As to feeding them, that might not be such a good idea, "Give a man a fish, you feed for a day, teach him how to fish, you feed him forever"...But to do that, we'd have to restructure their society to be more equal, which the people there who have grown rich off corruption and intercepting the chain of food to the poor people (And sometimes even telling the poor that it's America's fault they're starving!)...would GREATLY resent!
Indeed, they'd consider it American "imperialism", and rather than just passively complain (Like our laws constrain us to do--anyone who attacks invaders in America is a vigilante--Heck, the Minutemen, who only WATCH are called vigilantes, when "voyeur" might be more accurate...I can understand the confusion, both words start with V), they'd actively ATTACK the Americans for trying to improve their country. And heaven defend us if we successfully invade and improve a country with our "imperialism"...For references, please look at the Native American Indians (Who enjoy tax-free status on land we already "conquered"), Hawaii (Now a State of the Union), Puerto Rico (A "State" that doesn't have to pay taxes...Would that be called a Welfare State?

), and/or Japan (We gave them the transistor and their law claimed all inventions stemming from it, which includes the Integrated Circuit, without which, Nintendo and the rest of their thriving computer-industry would have been impossible...But they never mention that, and indeed, still consider all non-Japanese "inferior" somehow...Isn't that institutionalized racism worse than our own?

)
But if you keep feeding the enemy countries, it frees their leader-castes to pursue "other projects"--including military development (No more "guns or butter" choices, if America is supplying the food! Think of North Korea...)--without having to worry about feeding their peoples (Assuming that ever weighed on their minds to begin with!

)
If you feed them, you're keeping them addicted to your aid, but if you cut that aid (after all, these are INDEPENDENT nations, just ask any of them!), then you're racist and/or isolationist, rather than being praised for giving the so-called "independent" nations a chance to see how they fare WITHOUT our aid...Would that qualify as addiction? If so, we're the enablers...If not, we're wasting a LOT of food and money on countries that see us as nothing but a food-supply...and while feeding animals is "wrong" and dangerous anyways, how much MORE dangerous is it to feed an enemy army? One that could easily turn on us, regardless of our continued support and feeding of them?
Also, your last line, "Feed them there or feed them here", sounds a lot like Bush's "fight them there or fight them here", but whether that was intentional or not, it is quite disingenuous, since it's not a mutually-exclusive choice: America hasn't shown any willingness to cut off foreign aid from Mexico, El Salvador, or any other country that sends us their people against our will, so they get to reap BOTH: Our foreign-aid generosity abroad, AND steal from us in our own nation! If we did make them choose--or better yet, threaten to invade the evacuated areas--I bet the illegals would stop in hours...Think about it!

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 29

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 12:48:46 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It sounds like you have hit upon something that many people hate about academic people.. it is called moral relativity.... Post Modernism is full of us monsters that think this way...

Julia, you're an "academic" now?
My condolances.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 30

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 1:00:38 PM

popeye1250

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EPGAH, well said.
That's why I don't believe in any type of "govt". "foreign aid."
If individuals want to give fine but "govt foreign aid" gets stolen.
The State Dept knows this and they keep doing it!
One of the many things I hope the next president does is to get us out of the foreign aid business. And make no mistake about it, it is a business.
And the Taxpayers get ripped off bigtime!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to EPGAH)

Post #: 31

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 1:50:35 PM

popeye1250

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http://www.americanlafrance.com/interior.asp?n=2010&p=1005&s=0

Now that would make a nice "Limo."
You can customise the interiors to your liking with seating for 8 and plenty of room!
Plus if you lived in Malibu you could use it to protect your property from those wild fires!
Just hook up some hard suctions from the swimming pool to the truck and you have 50-100,000 gallons of water for firefighting!
The ladder is piped with a 1250 gpm nozzle at the tip that can be used with a hand held remote!
You just raise the ladder and drown the fire.
And when not in fire fighting mode it would be a very comfortable Limo! You could have miniature fire extinguishers filled with different type of coctails. T.V. and Bose stereo in the back passenger compartment along with ice chest for beer and soft drinks. And comfortable leather reclining "Captain's" chairs!
I don't know why all those rich people in California's high fire prone areas haven't thought about this yet! It'd save them a ton of money in fire insurance!
Imagine pulling up to your friends mansion, lights flashing, siren wailing and your slaves decked out in firefighter's helmets, boots and jackets with lingerie underneith!
C'Mon Powerball Lottery!
I'm telling you, this is going to be the next "Big Thing" for the rich in California!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/5/2007 1:57:50 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 32

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 5:26:55 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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What's funny is that we just watched Se7en again this weekend and that's pretty much the message that John Doe was trying to say- we are all really that awful and it's not ok just because we all do it.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 33

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 5:52:20 PM

Celeste43

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Vegans buy shoes made from plastic. We all know that those shoes will wear out but never break down. Myself I'd rather wear leather. But I don't consider it a compromise morally to choose to wear leather shoes or eat meat.

I spent summers on a cousin's farm when young and learned early that being sentimental about dinner is not a good thing. Farmers name their young steers hamburger or brisket in order to keep firmly in mind the eventual disposition of the animal they are carefully raising.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 34

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 5:55:13 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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The question really becomes more of "Why is it ok to slice open a cow, but not slowly pull out a cats claws?"

As soon as we say "It's ok to make other animals suffer for our convenience" it really becomes a totally arbitrary area of how much suffering.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 35

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 6:01:32 PM

popeye1250

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Philosophy, "feed them there or feed them here".
Now think about that.
That doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 36

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 7:01:05 PM

EPGAH

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Philosophy, "feed them there or feed them here".
Now think about that.
That doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

That was the last point I tried to make: They take our money THERE, THEN they complain we're not giving enough, so they sneak over here and take more--and send it back "home"! (The very fact that they consider their old country as "home"--even though "home" apparently didn't do enough for them to keep them there--should speak volumes for their pathology too!)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071106/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_flooding
I'll bet you any amount you want, THIS causes more illegals to sneak into America, rather than taking responsibility for their own country's problems! Yet, this would make a valid grounds to ask for "refugee" status, hopefully TEMPORARY refugee status!...But Mexicans seem to have a bad habit of overstaying their welcome, then causing trouble in "their" new country!

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 11/5/2007 7:04:00 PM >

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 37

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 8:49:16 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Vegans buy shoes made from plastic. We all know that those shoes will wear out but never break down. Myself I'd rather wear leather. But I don't consider it a compromise morally to choose to wear leather shoes or eat meat.

Understandable. As for the plastic vs. leather shoes, it's either one problem or another, isn't it? So we make choices based on our personal value system and go from there. And we do not all share the same values, which makes life on this planet so interesting :)

I prefer leather too, btw.

quote:

I spent summers on a cousin's farm when young and learned early that being sentimental about dinner is not a good thing. Farmers name their young steers hamburger or brisket in order to keep firmly in mind the eventual disposition of the animal they are carefully raising.

I personally have no problem with raising livestock to kill and eat. I have issues with the way some livestock are raised. Veal is one example. The chicken houses I've seen in the Los Banos area of California are another, as are some of the manure cows along California's Highway 5, north of Stockton, standing around in piles of their own waste all day. I think we can treat our creatures more ethically, so when I can, I support those farmers who do so. Supporting those farmers who practice farming that is contrary to my ethical beliefs is where I compromise.

But I realize not everyone shares my views on this, and I do not condem those who don't.

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 38

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/5/2007 11:20:26 PM

popeye1250

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Maybe cows actually like standing in their own shit all day.
I don't think ruminant animals have "ethics" though.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 39

RE: Ethics, Values and Compromise (oh my!) - 11/6/2007 12:10:53 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Maybe cows actually like standing in their own shit all day.

Maybe! Instead of California Happy Cows, there are California Kinky Cows? Hmm...

quote:

I don't think ruminant animals have "ethics" though.

Likely not. But I can be ethical in how I choose to treat them. Until of course, I compromise :)

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 40

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