RE: Safe words (Full Version)

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chellekitty -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 8:22:42 PM)

perhaps because when i get a cramp or my knee is overextended or i am going to puke i am no longer in an altered state of mind and the fog has been lifted for me?



mistoferin -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 8:25:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

perhaps because when i get a cramp or my knee is overextended or i am going to puke i am no longer in an altered state of mind and the fog has been lifted for me?


So how would "red" communicate your need more effectively than "Knee" or "cramp' or "puke"? Why not just use the words that are already at your disposal that actually mean what you mean?



slavegirljoy -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 8:28:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkatoy

What do you use for safe words?

i don't use a safe word and never have.  In fact, i had been enjoying BDSM for almost 18 years before i ever heard the term and i had to ask what it meant.  i was in the early days of my 4th D/s relationship when my Dom asked me what my safe word was and i asked, "What's that?"  he told me and i said, "i don't have one" so, he told me to use the word, "red" and, i never used it.  i never even said the word 'red' to him, except with reference to the color, such as, "i like dry, red wine."  
 
i have never engaged in any BDSM activities with anyone, other than those who i have been in long-term, intimate, D/s relationships with and, these relationships have always been based on my having no power, within the relationship.  All of my D/s relationships have been with men i trusted with my life.  If i didn't trust them with my life, i never would be intimately involved with them, to begin with.  i have always put my safety and well-being in the strong and capable hands of the Dominant and they have all handled that power honorably and responsibly.  None of them ever failed to use me properly or to their full satisfaction and, i never felt any need to stop them.  i wouldn't even think of indulging in BDSM activities with someone who i felt i needed to have a built-in escape from.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David



yourMissTress -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 8:36:13 PM)

Hello mist!
 
You always make such very good points.  Did I ever tell you that you and Merc were responsible for making me rethink, or actually think at all about safewords?  Yes, it's true.  When I came into the lifestyle I was told about safewords and never thought twice about them.  I told any sub that I played with about the safewords I used and went about playing.  I don't remember hearing it called out more than one time, but I could be wrong about that. 
 
A few years ago, here on the CMMB, I read a thread about safewords and responded without really thinking about why I used safewords.  I responded with why other people used safewords.  Going back and re-reading that thread a few days later I spent some time considering what the two of you had said, and thinking about how I play. 
 
As I said, I have only had one sub call out a safeword, and that was my intention, to bring her to where she couldn't physically take another strike.  As Merc called it "a short cut to getting to know someone" that's just what it was.  I watch every move, every muscle, and every twitch that anyone I am playing with makes.  I am as in tune with what's going on with them as I can possibly be without being a clairvoyant.  I am attentive and careful and aware. 
 
I have since eliminated safewords from my play.  The reasons that most greatly influenced that decision were
1) there are subs who wouldn't safeword if their life depended on it for fear of embarassment
2) If I can't tell when play needs to stop for someone's safety and well being, I have no business playing
3) a safe word is a false sense of security
there are more, but this post has gone on long enough.
 
 



chellekitty -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 8:37:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

perhaps because when i get a cramp or my knee is overextended or i am going to puke i am no longer in an altered state of mind and the fog has been lifted for me?


So how would "red" communicate your need more effectively than "Knee" or "cramp' or "puke"? Why not just use the words that are already at your disposal that actually mean what you mean?


because "red" means "something is majorly wrong, the scene needs to end" and is faster than saying "something is wrong, come here" and "knee" or "puke" would illicit a "huh" which would result in me having to say "my knee is over extended, i need to stop" or "i am going to puke, i need a bucket" where if i had just said "red" i could have saved precious seconds and been down by the time i had explained what was wrong...if i had a cramp i would say yellow, not red and ask to be allowed time to stretch it out

btw...to answer missturbation's question

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

a safe word does not automatically equate the session stopping unless the Dominant decides that the session should stop...

Whats the point of having a safe word then?


the Dominants i play with trust me not to use the stop safe word (red) unless the scene actually needs to stop...what i was refering to was the caution safe word (yellow) in which i need to communicate something like i have a cramp or the restraint needs to be loosened or my arms need to be at a less severe angle...and even if the scene ends for the moment, it will continue when i am able...because my Dominant wants to hurt me, not harm me...harming me takes away from my ability to serve and please him and that makes him unhappy...



MadRabbit -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 8:47:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

The justifications for the use of these "code" words is generally so that things like "no" and "stop" don't get misunderstood. Why is the vocabulary of a submissive thought to be so limited? Do dominants think that we are incapable of expressing our needs with real words that actually mean what we say? Maybe I'm weird, but if I get a cramp the first word that usually comes into my mind is "cramp". If I overextend my knee the first thing that pops into my head is "knee". If I'm going to puke...well you guessed it...."puke".



I think thats overstating the case a bit. Sorry, but I have specifically been in play where there was that resistance element and "No" and "Stop" did not mean "No" and "Stop". I love it as well. That kind of stuff really feeds the sadist part of me.

Can I tell the difference between the resistance element for fun and real communication of a problem based on common sense, body language and intuition? Sure, I am pretty good at it.

However...and I might lose my Top Hat over this one...but its possible that I might be wrong.

People are making a lot of good points in this thread, but to completely undermine safewords as being useless and devoid of any practical purposes, I don't completely agree with.

As far as the whole "topping from the bottom" and "ultimate authority" aspect of this, that only pans out for me if you view safewords as some biblical law as opposed to viewing it for what it is...a communication tool. A bottom could control me and get me to stop just as easily by lying and screaming "AWWW! I'M FUCKING DYING" just the same as if she were to say her safeword "Gooey Gooey Gum Drops" when there wasn't an emergency. In both cases, I am either going to be pretty ticked or go right back to what I am doing.



RRafe -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 8:55:59 PM)

I tend to play with rack, and do pretty much what chelle does. It's easy to tell me something needs adjutment, or she needs a break to process or catch her breath. And some girls do vomit from endorphin rushes-I never block thier mouths or airways during heavy play.

But that's the thing, none ever feared my domly displeasure enough to stop communicating with me. I made it clear that thier safety trumped my ego. Which ADDED to thier respect, rather than hurt it.



mistoferin -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 9:14:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress
Hello mist!


It is so good to see you here! I actually sent you a message tonight on the other side before you responded here. I am so flattered by your post that you would give such thought to my words....speechless really. But as you already know I have a great respect for you also. I hope this post indicates that you will be around more often. Thank you.[:)]



chiaThePet -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 9:45:07 PM)

For the love of God,

TAMPON already.

chia* (the pet)



MidnightMaiden -> RE: Safe words (11/6/2007 10:06:57 PM)

Our "code" words:-

OW OW OW OW - hey that feels really good.
HOLY COW - oh you got a sweet spot there.
OH SHIT! - I think I love you.
FUCK - ok that one stung a bit.
OMG THAT HURTS THAT HURTS THAT REALLY REALLY HURTS - your chosen method of stimulus has reached a high pain level, your choice what to do from here Master.




bipolarber -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 6:35:27 AM)

Yeah, there are times when no matter how much you argue, people just aren't gonna change their minds, or even stop to reconsider... this is one of them.

RED!



VieVivante -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 8:08:10 AM)

quote:

And we haven't even touched on all of those submissives out there who won't utter a safe word that is given to them because they would be embarassed to do so, think that they are not pleasing their dominant, would feel like a failure, or are trying to prove how much they can endure.


Ummm, actually, I did touch on that a few pages back. It is one of MY main concerns about safe words.

Trying to pull this all together in my head, for those who do not use safe words these are a few of the major issues they have with them:
1. That there have been cases when safe wording has caused problems because more information than just "red" was desperately needed.
2. That they perceive that the community has allowed the concept of the safe word to be perceived as a panacea, giving a false impression that as long as the safe word isn't used, the Dom can keep whacking away.
3. That subs deep in subspace can be incapable of using a safeword, even if their body needs it.

These are all valid points, and to my mind reinforces the fact that merely having a safeword is NOT a panacea. Pretending it is would be inappropriate and irresponsible.

On the other hand (there's always that darn other hand, eh?), using these limited examples as a reason to say safewords are unsafe is also inappropriate. There are a great many people who use safewords every day, and they work exactly as they were meant to, to let the Dom know that someting is wrong. The fact that using safewords isn't always beneficial does not mean they are automatically dangerous.

This is the issue I am having with the no safeword camp on this thread. Point being that, like anything in life, safewords have to be understood for what they can and cannot do. And a realization that sometimes having a safeword can lead to unpleasant consequences. Also the concept that those who say they don't need safewords because they use other forms of communication, often nonverbal to let them know when something is wrong. My issue with this is that we are all human (except for the purple giraffes), and none of us are immune to making a mistake. As I said in a previous post, I think of the safeword as a safety net, a way for the sub to let me know something is wrong that for whatever reason, I did not catch myself.

Whether or not anyone chooses to use safewords is up to them, which is as it should be. For those who have perceived this as a heated argument, I don't agree. I have seen little flaming and much objective debate from both camps on this topic, which can only be healthy. As in so much else about this lifestyle, ignorance is the greatest danger.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 9:31:01 AM)

While chatting with beth over coffee this morning she added another facet of this debate that I haven't yet seen considered. It comes from her perspective as a submissive, granted a submissive who is now my slave and one who never had a safe-word. beth never had a safe-word not because she thought them bad or wrong but because she never "served" anyone else but me in a lifestyle context. I think my stance is clear in this regard.

her position is that she wouldn't want the responsibility of having control of the scene. From our first physical encounter I knew she would not be capable of having that responsibility. Whatever sensation she was experiencing she would not have the ability to vocalize. Pushed to some kind of yet to be established "limit"; "death" would be her version of "red". But her comment addressed the other side of the flogger?

Having a safe-word takes most, if not all, of the responsibility for what happens away from the dominant. He/She can flail away all the skin from the submissive's back and/or break every blood vessel in the submissive ass and if the submissive is stoic, is having an "out of body experience", or just can't vocalize or express the agreed upon magic word; and his/her reaction to a complaint can be "Whoops, Damn - sorry that you lost a pint of blood. I thought that was a bit much, but since I didn't hear your safe word I figured- hey, what the hell!" There has been an example of this occuring given in this thread.

I appreciate and understand and think it is a good idea for submissives to want to maintain a level of control with a safe word, especially as a IM friend of mine pointed out, for those that enjoy "casual play" combined with "casual sex". I enjoy those things too, but always have some sort of relationship experience in conjunction with that activity. I know the person well enough and limit the sensation and experience to that level of knowledge. The "play" and/or "sex" may be "casual" the relationship isn't. I have an empathy for anyone and everyone that reaches that level of acquaintance. And remember the other side of the coin. They know that I don't use a safe-word too. So if they don't or can't trust me at whatever is their comfort level, the experience doesn't happen.

The submissives who do want and need safe words and see them as protective need to keep in mind they are protecting the dominant much more than they are protecting the submissive. In that regard many dominants don't want that responsibility. And again - there is nothing wrong and no qualitative judgment implied in suggesting this MAY be the case in SOME instances.

This is not dogma. This is an opinion pointed at the result and implication of the use of this tool.



missturbation -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 9:48:59 AM)

quote:

the Dominants i play with trust me not to use the stop safe word (red) unless the scene actually needs to stop...what i was refering to was the caution safe word (yellow) in which i need to communicate something like i have a cramp or the restraint needs to be loosened or my arms need to be at a less severe angle...and even if the scene ends for the moment, it will continue when i am able...because my Dominant wants to hurt me, not harm me...harming me takes away from my ability to serve and please him and that makes him unhappy...


Thanks chelle, with you now [:D]




frazzle40 -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 9:49:30 AM)

Ive 'played' both with and without a safety word in place.
Safety words are useful when getting to know someone, I dont expect anyone to be able to read my reactions straight off the bat. We're all different.
What i didnt expect, was me struggling to breathe and him expecting me to call safety, before he'd stop. He admitted it was obvious i was in trouble, but without 'safety word' he wasnt going to stop. 
What a shock, we are no longer together.

Nowadays, its not even mentioned.    Get to know me very well, or we'll just sit and chat.

my 2p worth      or is that now 5p with inflation.



RRafe -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 9:52:38 AM)

I use the green safeword more than the red. I'm more interested in giving just enough-rather than too much-saves on physical damage. It's also a bit more humiliating for a girl to have to beg for more-because she's such a slut.[:D]

Then I'll decide if *I* want to go further. So I will allow a certain amount of topping from the bottom, so long as it matches my kinks too. And one of the ways I do that is by forcing admnissions. It does tend to cut down on the tendency to try and seize control from me.

With the added benefit-that I can be unpredictable-and asking for too much-may well result in a "too much" that was something entirely unimagined.



missturbation -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 9:56:39 AM)

quote:

if the submissive is stoic, is having an "out of body experience", or just can't vocalize or express the agreed upon magic word; 


I hadn't considered this until i read your post [:D]
Now i think on it though i have to agree. If Sir gets a knife to my skin i space so much, i think i would have trouble remembering my own name, never mind a safe word.
Also as i have said to Sir, when it comes to knives i sometimes scare myself, as to how far i would allow Him to go with them. I have absolutely no sense of safe and sane as soon as i see a knife.





Rover -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 10:19:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

perhaps because when i get a cramp or my knee is overextended or i am going to puke i am no longer in an altered state of mind and the fog has been lifted for me?


So how would "red" communicate your need more effectively than "Knee" or "cramp' or "puke"? Why not just use the words that are already at your disposal that actually mean what you mean?


All are examples of safewords.  A safeword is nothing more than the conveyance of some information to the Top/Dominant.  Red works as well as knee, cramp, puke or anything else that gets the job done. 
 
The only purpose for a safeword that isn't plain English (ie: knee, cramp, puke... you get the idea) is to eliminate confusion from the use of terms like "stop" during things like rape scenes which mimick nonconsent.  And the only purpose for the use of "red" as a safeword is for use in public facilities (public dungeons, clubs, play parties, etc) where everyone has to be "on the same page".
 
Don't misconstrue the term safeword as necessitating some mystical word imbued with mystical qualities.
 
John



Padriag -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 10:30:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VieVivante


Trying to pull this all together in my head, for those who do not use safe words these are a few of the major issues they have with them:
1. That there have been cases when safe wording has caused problems because more information than just "red" was desperately needed.
2. That they perceive that the community has allowed the concept of the safe word to be perceived as a panacea, giving a false impression that as long as the safe word isn't used, the Dom can keep whacking away.
3. That subs deep in subspace can be incapable of using a safeword, even if their body needs it.

Pretty fair summation of some of the major points I think.

quote:

These are all valid points, and to my mind reinforces the fact that merely having a safeword is NOT a panacea. Pretending it is would be inappropriate and irresponsible.

Very true and on this we absolutely agree.

To sum up my main two objections, I think they could be briefly put as follows.

First, that too often I hear safewords bandied about as though they were such a panacea, used as a means of validating someone as "safe", and so forth.  Its taken a concept which initially had a useful function in its context and abusing it, that concerns me.  It also concerns me that increasingly it seems like the trend is towards calling anyone who doesn't use safewords irresponsible, which is both unfair and untrue.

Second, personally I just don't find any use for them.  I think we can say there are others who feel similarly.  Some of that could be attributed to styles of play or to who we play with.  That's at the core of the debate, the utility of safewords.  For some of us safewords have little or no utility, for others safewords have a lot of utility.

Here's something about this thread, and the whole debate whenever it comes up, that bugs me personally.  It almost becomes a crusade, the virtues of safewords are touted and we're told what a responsible, important and necessary thing they are.   That's been the gist and tone of more than one post in this thread.  On the other side, and I'm probably guilty of this, is completely dismissing safewords.  Both sides end up staring at the other while digging their heels in.  Now maybe its the fever, or the congestion or maybe I got hit with some common sense... but it just seems kinda silly to me right now.  There are situations when safewords can be useful to some... but not everyone.  There are also situations where safewords can be entirely useless.  Anyone who overly relies on safewords is setting themselves up for an accident.  For those who use them, they ought to be aware of some of the pitfalls of relying on safewords and that there is absolutely no substitute for the personal judgement, awareness and responsibility of the Top/dominant.  The "community" also needs to realize that not everyone needs or has a use for safewords and that's okay too.  Not using them is not a "red flag", it does not mean the person is unsafe.  So in short, if it works for ya, great.  If ya don't need'em... great.  Just be careful out there folks, and try, try, try not to kill anybody... its a bitch to talk your way out of. [8D]



Sinergy -> RE: Safe words (11/7/2007 11:05:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

perhaps because when i get a cramp or my knee is overextended or i am going to puke i am no longer in an altered state of mind and the fog has been lifted for me?


So how would "red" communicate your need more effectively than "Knee" or "cramp' or "puke"? Why not just use the words that are already at your disposal that actually mean what you mean?


Perhaps in the deep fog of subspace, the person cannot adequately articulate using langauage at their disposal to describe what exactly is wrong.

I have done a lot of joint locks and breaks and choke-outs and the like in martial arts.  The standard "safe word" is to tap out.  This means the person tapping out lightly slaps or taps their body or that of the other person for non-verbal signal that they are done.  The person then releases control of the choke, hold, break, whatever.  These are used to avoid littering the streets with dead sparring partners.

In the self defense I teach, we have a safe word used in case of a person who has a disassociative melt-down in class from some previously traumatic experience, and they can let the coach know that the mock assault should be stopped.

In my opinion, safe words are a tool, nothing more.  They can be used, or not, the same way a person can use a gun to shoot deer, a six foot tall man wearing orange who is mistaken for an 8 inch tall bird, or the scumbag attempting to jack one up on the street.

The only dangerous part of a safe word is the nut behind the trigger.

Sinergy



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