"punishment"="failure"?

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

"punishment"="failure"?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress >> "punishment"="failure"?

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

"punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 10:57:27 AM

Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline

Is punishment an indication of "failure" or something else?

I didn't want hijack a thread when I saw this post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I punish rarely.

In the 8 years I've owned Fox, I can count the number of times I've punished him on one hand.

For me punishment is a sign for failure for both slave and owner.

Repeated need for punishment is a signal that the relationship is no appropriate for those two people. They may find appropriate partners elsewhere but clearly they are not invest enough to maintain their Ds dynamic.

So when I have had to punish I felt like a failure and I also felt sad, very sad.

No worries I'm not picking on anybody...TammyJo just happens to express and articulate a belief well and it happens to be one I disagree with as well.

I, personally, believe punishment is not a sign of failure but commitment.

To punish one must have cause to correct and a commitment to assure the correction.

Punishment maybe for the betterment of a s-type after a certain act. It maybe used to emphasis an undesired change or desired change in behaviour. It shows a commitment to follow through and a deep caring of accomplishment. Punishment is, or should be, a motivator.

To give punishment one must also have someone who consents to the punishment.

Punishment has to be accepted. Punishment, in my opinion, should be discussed afterwards to make it clear what's expected and what wasn't done that caused the correction. Accepting a punishment shows that one is willing to bear even pain to stay around and do things right.

So now that there's at least two opinions here....

Anybody else have anything to share?

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 11:26:05 AM

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline

I don't have the experience with a sub, but I tend to disagree on this issue. I honestly don't think the punishment should be necessary. In a D/s relationship between mature, responsible, functioning adults there is an agreement that one will lead and the other will follow. That's an agreement, it's like a contract. If there is a breakdown on one side of the agreement, as in one party openly defies a stated and agreed to element in the contract, then the contract is broken. If someone breaks a contract with me I no longer have faith or trust in their word or their commitment. I don't know that punishment will fix that. I'm not sure I want to be in a relationship with someone who I constantly have to punish to get him/her to live up to the things he agreed to do.

I would much rather have the sub tell me straight up "I can't do this, or I don't want to do this" so I can make the decision as to how important that item is for me. Is is a non-negotiable part of the contract or not? If it isn't then I can take it out and there is no longer a need for constant punishment. If it is really important to me, then I know up front that this isn't the sub for me. This is like looking for a housekeeper that does windows.

On the other hand if the violation had something to do with miscommunication or misunderstanding then that would have been a failure on my part to make sure I was well understood. It is similar to vague or incomplete language in a contract in which two people interpret things differently. In this situation punishment would be inappropriate.

I think there probably will be instances in which punishment is appropriate but I still can't imagine finding it to be anything but discouraging.

(in reply to BoiJen)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 12:29:46 PM

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline

I do not believe punishment is failure for either the Dom/me or the sub. In my relationship there are set goals, requirements and expectations of behavior. When one does not achieve said goals, follow through with requirements or behave in a way in which was agreed or demanded...there are consequences to the action. The degree of the punishment varies to the infraction.

There have been occasions where he hasn't fulfilled his obligation and he has been punished merely by not being allowed in my presence for a period of time, not allowed to serve, paddlings etc.

What I think is good about punishment (and maybe this is the Catholic upbringing) is once your penance has been served...there are no hard feelings...no lingering resentments...or anger. It is the price you pay for unacceptable behavior.

In my relationship, if my submissive fails to meet an obligation that he has agreed to, than he failed to do a task...not failed me in submission. I correct the behavior and make sure that the correction is not pleasant in order to make sure it doesn't happen again. I also reward good service to instill positive experiences when meeting or exceeding expectation. It is a good balance.

_____________________________

Happiness is only real when shared. - Christopher McCandless

(in reply to TNstepsout)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 12:34:58 PM

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Aside from a Dominant wanting to punish just because it pleases them, i think there are different reasons for punishment. One would be punishment to reinforce a point, showing the submissive that slopiness wont be tolerated. Hopefully after being punshed the first time, its a case of lesson learned.

Another would be a submissive who is always being punished for pushing the Dominant to far. i dont see the brattiness in the second example as being healthy for the relationship.

Edited for spelling

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 11/7/2007 12:44:48 PM >

(in reply to TNstepsout)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 12:37:58 PM

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I am not a "punisher". I am an adult, and I work and play with other adults, not children, not livestock, not really alert purple headed giraffes. IMO, the people who submit to me are capable of understanding their own actions and their consequences. (This turned out to be an enormous issue between me and a former slave, even though I made my methods very clear. ) IMO, rational people learn more from fixing their mistakes than from having some kind of punitive thing happen to them. If you get a speeding ticket, are you learning to drive more slowly, or to be more careful about getting caught?

Obviously, my opinion comes from my own background and experience. My first career was as a teacher of the learning disabled and emotionally impaired. I learned how to explain things clearly, and how to decide "what's important" in terms of expectations, and yes, behavior modification. I learned that the more rules you have, the more rules you have to enforce, and I would rather live my life than have to watch someone for every tiny infraction. I certainly don't want to have to come up with some kind of appropriate "punishment"!

Out in the (scene) world, my submissive is representing me. A well behaved submissive makes me look good, a jerk makes me look bad. If I send a jerk out there, I feel bad about myself. First, because I have made a bad choice for a submissive. Only second do I think I have done a bad job explaining what the HELL is expected of them.

If my submissive is deliberately defying me, that's a problem. If he or she is just not paying attention, that's a problem. Both of those problems have to be approached with open communication. If these kinds of problems are persistent, chances are me and the submissive are not a match for each other. THAT would make me sad.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to TNstepsout)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 1:30:27 PM

Posts: 11
Joined: 9/23/2007
Status: offline

OOOH Lurker who needs to speak up again here because I saw this happening on the original thread but thought it might work itself out...
I agree with TammyJo. Punishment only comes in my house when I have willfully been disrespected in some way and I obviously don't have much patience for such actions. The need is not only a failure of the submissive/slave but also a failure of myself as I have allowed it and not disciplined before it got to that point. Discipline is expected...punishment goes beyond that. I think that those who said that they view punishment as a failure would feel the same way, although I cannot pretend to speak for them obviously.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 1:36:01 PM

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

I agree. As an adult, I certainly don't need someone punishing me for a mistake or a miscommunication. If I deliberately do something "wrong", then, perhaps, we need to sit down and talk about the dynamic.

(in reply to TNstepsout)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 1:50:25 PM

Posts: 174
Joined: 9/21/2007
Status: offline

I agreed with TammyJo on that thread because of one word that preceeded punishment in the op. It was severe. Severe Punishment. Not just punishment and that makes a big difference to me. Punishment or correction as I tend to call it because it isn't severe in any relationship I will be in, isn't the same as I see severe punishment. A submissive that needs severe punishment on a regular basis which was another thing in the oringinal question, isn't my thing. I would see it as a failure of some kind and I might consider my own part in it if it were continual or often. I would have to re-evaluate things if I found myself in a situation like that... but I don't tend to.

(in reply to bandit25)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 2:22:52 PM

Posts: 131
Joined: 7/23/2006
Status: offline

Firstly, as a Dom, I don't equate punishment with failure. But I suppose it could depends on a Dom's view of why the sub/slave was being punished – that kinda gets into a whole other thread discussion.
As for my opinion, I feel punishment is one of those things that depends on the individual; some subs need/want it and other do not. My sub is one of those who needs it. he needs/wants to know that should he screw up there are consequences, in others words, he wants to know that someone truly cares what he does.

_____________________________

Before you criticize someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them you're a mile away, and you have their shoes!

(in reply to HottLicks)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 2:43:40 PM

Posts: 195
Joined: 10/29/2007
Status: offline

As a person I may need more adverse training then alot of the people on this thread. I don't have a dominant in authority over me right now and I have determined that I am not in the right shape emotionally and intellectually to persue a relationship.

However I still need training and discipline. So I am doing my best to discipline myself. I make myself earn the right to come to this board, watch Tv, or spend money on extras by doing what I am susposed to be doing for my health and well being, and reaching daily goals I have set for myself in order to raise my self esteem and enhance my life in postitive ways.

So my perspective on punishment is different because I am both Master and slave to one person....me.. And to me, punishment is NOT failure but a tool to acheive suceess.

Every time I have to deny myself something it means I FAILED to do something...so yes I did fail. But punishment itself is a positive act of correction.

Naturally not all submissives had my upbringing where they had a complete lack of postitive consistant discipline. Not all submissives need to be raised all over again.
Some are already very strong in theirselves and don't have the same needs as I do.

However I don't think viewing the need to punish(as discipline) as always bad thing.

(in reply to BlackSakura)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 2:53:44 PM

Posts: 319
Joined: 2/8/2006
From: San Diego, California
Status: offline

So much of this depends on the dynamic between the Domme and sub and the reason for the "punishment" in the first place. So it's largely a question of semantics depending on how you define your terms.

If the punishment is being meted out because a sub failed to perform as expected/ required, by definition there is a form of failure involved, whether a failure in training, communication, obedience or performance. But not all failures need to be viewed entirely negatively. Failure and correction are how we learn, hopefully improve, and eliminate the mistakes in the future.

What I think may be missing from the observations thus far is that some people (you know who you are!) have a sadistic and controlling streak and enjoy doling out punishment, belittlement, chastisement, etc., as part of their relationship dynamic. (this isn't just in the D/s context-- we all probably know a few abusive spouses, bosses, officers, etc., who fall into this category) And, in the great balance of the world, there are those who enjoy, whether consciously or subconsciously, being the recipients of such action-- who want to be humiliated, demeaned, punished (pick your term-- I know they have somewhat different connotations, but you get my point). In that mutually accepted context, punishment wouldn't be deemed as failure, but rather the point of the matter.

Regards, ATP

_____________________________

Pleasing you pleases me.

(in reply to BoiJen)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 5:49:26 PM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

For me, punishment is reserved for those things which are challenges to the Ds dynamic, to my authority. If that happens repeatedly then I consider it a sign we may not be well matched. I never ever use the term punishment to mean anything other than this. I dont't need an excuse to do SM, I just do what I wish when it is appropriate in that regard.

When I train and continuing afterwards as needed I give feedback, I give instructions and require that activities are practiced until they are better (I don't expect perfect because I try to be realistic). That is not punishment merely helping my slave become better for me.

Just like LadyHibiscus I learned a long time ago and with hurt heart that I need to only have rules and rituals that are truly of importance to me and which I can maintain readily. My rules for a slave in my household are fairly simple if deceptively so: 1) call me Mistrress, 2) do as you are told, 3) never say "no" to me, 4) make my life easier, 5) ask me questions when you don't understand, 6) get my permission to do more than work outside the house, and 7) never lie to me. By the time training is done and we've made a decision to move onto ownership how to do all of that should be very clear.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to BoiJen)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 5:51:24 PM

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

A lot of talk here on punishment being unnecessary "because we're adults." I guess adults should not suffer negative consequences for unthoughtful or inappropriate behavior. But isn't this assuming that all adults are wired the same, and that because one adult is wired such that punishment is more effective, then he/she must be "less of an adult" than one who is wired such that punishment is ineffective?

Talk about an elitist point of view!

As for failure vs. not - It depends on what went wrong. If I need to be punished, then I have failed my Master somehow (and therefore I have failed myself). It could be I failed because he failed in his teaching/training/guiding/leading/whatever-you-want-to-call-it methodology. In the past, when I have done something that required a punishment, everything gets analyzed, and failure is determined at that time.

I haven't required a punishment in ages. I guess I'm an all grown up adult now! Still a whacky wafer, but an adult one, at that.

(in reply to BoiJen)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 5:53:55 PM

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

It's really no different than saying that all adults MUST be punished severely for inappropriate behavior.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 6:00:46 PM

RRafe

Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Is punishment an indication of "failure" or something else?

I didn't want hijack a thread when I saw this post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I punish rarely.

In the 8 years I've owned Fox, I can count the number of times I've punished him on one hand.

For me punishment is a sign for failure for both slave and owner.

Repeated need for punishment is a signal that the relationship is no appropriate for those two people. They may find appropriate partners elsewhere but clearly they are not invest enough to maintain their Ds dynamic.

So when I have had to punish I felt like a failure and I also felt sad, very sad.

No worries I'm not picking on anybody...TammyJo just happens to express and articulate a belief well and it happens to be one I disagree with as well.

I, personally, believe punishment is not a sign of failure but commitment.

To punish one must have cause to correct and a commitment to assure the correction.

Punishment maybe for the betterment of a s-type after a certain act. It maybe used to emphasis an undesired change or desired change in behaviour. It shows a commitment to follow through and a deep caring of accomplishment. Punishment is, or should be, a motivator.

To give punishment one must also have someone who consents to the punishment.

Punishment has to be accepted. Punishment, in my opinion, should be discussed afterwards to make it clear what's expected and what wasn't done that caused the correction. Accepting a punishment shows that one is willing to bear even pain to stay around and do things right.

So now that there's at least two opinions here....

Anybody else have anything to share?

I prefer discipline.

Which means reenforcement of agreements.

I can only have limited influence on someone's head from outside. I'm not arrogant enough to feel otherwise. I will usually set postive goals with rewards..If someone chooses to slack in getting there, they suffer..

Not me.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to BoiJen)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 6:01:21 PM

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

Oh I agree, bandit, only I rarely see such a statement. Usually it's "I don't do punishment - I'm an adult." which of course implies anyone who does engage in such an activity is....not. I'm all for people being wired differently. I know many people who would crumble under punishment. I know many people who would not get it but for punishment. Neither is wrong, in my opinion, but it seems that's not a shared opinion.

(in reply to bandit25)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 6:41:14 PM

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

Ownedgirlie, I see where you are coming from with your opinion, and I hope that I haven't caused you--or anyone else--any inadvertant offense. When I say "we're all adults here", I am speaking for my interpretation of the D/s dynamic. I know many who treat their submissives as "children" or creatures that they are "training and molding". From my POV, this is diminishing the other person, and saying "oh, they're just kids, they don't know how to control themselves/behave/get through the day without my constant guidance and correction."

We ARE all adults here. As adults, we all have different needs and desires that we are trying to achieve through our actions. We have chosen our roles. We know what we are and are not doing. We are not children guided by the impulse of the moment. In my household, we move along, we fuck up, we fix it. Other folks are going to do things differently. So, some people out there are going to feel improved, relieved, or whatever by some kind of "punishment". It's not something that works for me, and it certainly won't work for anyone that wants to be a submissive of mine. But let's not say that we're less than rational, conscious adults who are making our own choices.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 7:38:11 PM

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

Hello LadyHibiscus, and thank you for your post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Ownedgirlie, I see where you are coming from with your opinion, and I hope that I haven't caused you--or anyone else--any inadvertant offense. When I say "we're all adults here", I am speaking for my interpretation of the D/s dynamic. I know many who treat their submissives as "children" or creatures that they are "training and molding". From my POV, this is diminishing the other person, and saying "oh, they're just kids, they don't know how to control themselves/behave/get through the day without my constant guidance and correction."

I am not at all offended, so no worries. We share different beliefs on this particular topic, which is simply evidence of the diversity amongst contributers to this site. I do not equate training, molding, and punishment with being treated as a child, since my view of such activities is not limited solely to youngsters. I also do not equate the occasional need for punishment as someone who can not control him/herself without constant guidance. I see so many different forms of people on this earth, each needing different motivators to grow and develop. While a form of correction may be optimal for one, it should not at all serve to berate what is optimal for another.

quote:

We ARE all adults here. As adults, we all have different needs and desires that we are trying to achieve through our actions. We have chosen our roles. We know what we are and are not doing. We are not children guided by the impulse of the moment. In my household, we move along, we fuck up, we fix it. Other folks are going to do things differently. So, some people out there are going to feel improved, relieved, or whatever by some kind of "punishment". It's not something that works for me, and it certainly won't work for anyone that wants to be a submissive of mine. But let's not say that we're less than rational, conscious adults who are making our own choices.

Ah, yes, your words here reflect an agreement that various tools work for various people (adults). Stating, "I'm an adult, therefore I do not do punishment" sends (to me, anyway) an entirely different message, so I appreciate your clarification. Thank you :)

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 7:45:00 PM

Posts: 358
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline

This is a good forum post for me to jump in on for my first thread; I was just explaining my views on this to a subby boy in chat today.

Personally, I think that punishment as part of a scene can be very fun and fulfilling. Whether you like naughty school boys, poddy-mouthed firemen, or nasty little sluts, that kind of role-playing punishment is just fun and fulfilling for both the Dom/me and the sub.

I know that isn't the kind of punishment you are talking about though, but I wanted to put it out there. In Grey-land, there are two reasons to dole out *real* (as opposed to playful or sceneful) punishment to a sub. One is acceptable and the other is only acceptable on a very limited basis (three strikes is usually a good policy).

The acceptable reason for punishment is if the sub requests punishment as a form of behavior modification. I've seen this work quite effectively for subs trying to quit smoking, get their finances in order, stop cussing, remember to study for school or do homework, and so on. This is not a matter of a submissive or Dominant failing in a relationship goal, just a favor the Dominant is doing to help the submissive be the best person he or she can be. If it works, it's fantastic. No, none of those things are anything an adult can't do on their own, but many of them are things adults find very difficult too do without some system of discipline and reinforcement. Often, an external source of those things is just the ticket.

That said, there are three things that garner severe discipline in my book, and tolerance for those things is on a three strike basis. The first two times a sub might get severely disciplined, but the third time he/she gets kicked to the curb. The three things are:

1) Lying. I don't care if it's a lie about what you had for breakfast or where you were last weekend. Lie to me and suffer the consequences. I've met people and subs who sometimes simply lie about the smallest things because they are afraid someone might disapprove and they are terrified of rejection. Obviously this is a self-esteem problem that a Dom/me may or may not want to deal with. Personally, I don't. Liars need not apply, and if you lie to me more than twice I'm done putting up with it.

2) Inconsiderate and irresponsible behavior. In the days of cell phones, there is no excuse for not calling if you are going to be late or something has come up that makes you have to cancel plans. Tardiness or failure to show up without notice are completely inexcusable. Subs who can't keep their commitments, or at least maintain reasonable communication on the matter, shouldn't expect anyone, much less their Dominant partner, to put up with that shit. Your boss would fire your ass, and so will I.

3) Intentionally disrespectful or abusive behavior. I don't even need to explain this one. I've never actually had to deal with it, but if I did, I don't think I'd give it three strikes.

So thats my .02.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: "punishment"="failure"? - 11/7/2007 10:30:15 PM

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

I don't punish. I state what I want...it's then up to them to meet that or not. If they do, they're rewarded. If they don't, the relationship only develops to the depth of what they're willing to give. So, when they complain that they don't get enough time, attention, play or whatever, I explain the process again.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to BoiJen)

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress >> "punishment"="failure"?

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

0.500