RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes?

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/6/2007 4:56:24 PM

beltainefaerie

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline

I think that a hard limit is to be respected completely, but that both parties should remain open to the idea that things may shift as you go along.

I know that as a former cutter, knife play was once a hard limit for me. I thought it would be too hard for me to handle. Eventually, I came to a place psychologically, where I needed to surrender that too and my Master was willing to explore knife play scenes with me.

In another example, my Master and I cannot have vaginal intercourse (yet). I say yet, because that is a hard limit imposed by his wife (my sisterslave). Her limits for what goes on between us have expanded greatly throughout our time together. I have no expectation that this one will change, but I also have no expectation that it won't change. Limits can be fluid and changing with our experience.

Other limits have more to do with personal tastes and may never change. I am never going to be a watersports or scat play girl. If that is what someone wants, they can look elsewhere and i am very clear about that.

For me, the idea of pushing boundaries has to do with taking submissives to the edge of what they can handle, but not pushing them over it. It is a delicate balance. Some subs want hard limits to be avoided within a ten-mile radius and others enjoy having their dom push right up to, but not past, that edge.

I am personally one that loves to have my boundaries and limits pushed but not broken. Run right up against the edge of what I can handle and I'm a happy girl.

(in reply to RRafe)

Profile

Post #: 61

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/6/2007 5:12:25 PM

Grlwithboy

Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

That is one of those many things that works perfectly well when the person setting the agenda is not an idiot. :) If only that were the norm.

I couldn't agree more! Its why I advocate knowing the person you play with is much more important than knowing your, or their, 'limits'. It's not the path to a 'quickie'; but, in my opinion, it represents a safer path.

Besides, if you aren't sure the person setting the agenda is, or isn't, an "idiot" how much confidence can you have on your limits being respected? In fact one of my 'limits' is not to play with idiots. If they chose to be with me without knowing me and mine - that would qualify them for the idiot label and disqualify them from being with me. QED!

I much prefer to talk about how we feel about X Y or Z activity than hypothetical would /would you not anyway - it's a lot more detail. Funny things set people off - today I was out with the only gent who's ever consistently brought out any versatility in me and who's versatile himself and we were talking about how neither of us would probably ever speak to a person again if they deliberately put sticky stuff all over us - both of us have to leave the room during "sploshing" as random as that seems. Find "sticky things on neck" on a BDSM checklist....yeah, it's pretty nonsensical to have such strong aversion to it, but it sure is good to know what kind of reaction you can expect for your action.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 12/6/2007 5:13:34 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Profile

Post #: 62

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/6/2007 11:07:36 PM

Darke

Posts: 33
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline

Ahh...limits. Some people brag that they have none, some people take pride in how many they have. As I read this thread, it seems that there are three general kinds of "hard limits", and in recognizing that we can respond to each category in different ways.

1.) IT'S IMMORAL. The key concept here, obviously, is TRUST. Hopefully you know where someone "is at" before you let them tie you up. Once tied up, you are helpless. For many, that is the entire point of the whole endeavor. Once helpless, you in effect have no limits, in the sense that you cannot in a practical sense stop what is happening. Once again, this is, for many, the point of the whole enterprise. Once you let someone tie you up, you are TRUSTing that they
--will not slit your throat
--will not sell your picture to Penthouse
--will give you AIDS
all of which are far more immediate threats than that they will tie you up and then go abduct a small child to bring back and do bad things with you. TRUST TRUST TRUST. While "community standards" can be a dodgy concept amongst a bunch of wife-beating sodomites like us, hopefully you have dialogoued with a prospective top enough to grok whether he is a pederast or a (the bad sort of) psychopath BEFORE you let Him tie you up. If you trust your Dom/me and know "where he is at" hopefully things like child abuse and "go shoot my boss cuz I didn't get my raise" will be non-issues, other than as purely speculative gedanken thought experiments like these boards wallow in.

2.) I HAD A WACKY CHILDHOOD. Well....Who didn't? As you articulate your proclivites and kinks to see if P/ppl are compatible to even get involved with in the first damn place, this is most certainly instructive. During the first through Xth year of a relationship, many if not most Doms would probably be respectful of this. After you've been married 20 years, will He know you well enough to devise a scene He thinks might be cathartic and helpful for you? Every relationship is different, but forever is an awfully long time....

3.) IT'S ICKY. Fair 'nuff. Your opinion is certainly valid. Look for a partner with the same perversions as you have. But be advised that his interests--and yours--may evolve and mature over the next 5 or 10 or 20 years. I would wish that for you. It's worth...what's that "C" word?....communicating with your partner once a decade or so to make sure that you are both still in the same place.

my .02. YMMV

(in reply to Grlwithboy)

Profile

Post #: 63

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/6/2007 11:47:29 PM

MissOchistic

Posts: 315
Joined: 4/30/2007
Status: offline

Thanks, you guys reminded me I need to redo my interest and redefine my limits xD

_____________________________

"The amount i care for Thee
is more than two, but less than three."

"Submission is a potlatch."

(in reply to RRafe)

Profile

Post #: 64

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/7/2007 1:34:13 PM

SensibleSam

Posts: 77
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

I will give another sensible answer. Please disregard all contrary opinions.

There are some things that no one should do period. Call these universal hard limits. Anything that results in a dead body to explain is bad. Similarly anything that requires a visit to the emergency room is bad. Amputations should be a hard limit irrespective of the subs opinion. I also draw the line at canibalism and assisted suicide.

Lest you think these limits are too obvious that no one would disagree let me remind you of the Yakuza and Boxing Helena. A cannibal in England recently advertised for a victom and got a lot of responses. He was convicted of murder even though the victim consented and participated (he ate parts of himself as they were cut off).

Women who enjoy submission can go too far. They can lose perspective. I once met a sub who explained to me that her previous Master had had her sign over all her property to him including her house, car and bank account. He then dropped her and left her with only the clothes on her back. This woman was proud of herself for acheiving such a high state of submission.

All this goes to indicate that a Master should define the Hard Limits. It is possible to find a subbie who can be talked into just about anything. Everyone in BDSM knows this. Therefore a Master can't rely on her setting the limits. Its his job.

My limits opinions:

Drinking urine - A fine practice. Urine is sterile and quite safe. It degrades the subbie but doesn't actually harm her.

Eating shit - A very bad practice. Feces are mostly bacteria. They cause disease.

Flogging - A fine practice except with a true cat-o-nine-tails or other floggers with metal barbs. These can kill.

Caning - A fine practice. A cane can be very intense but is quite safe. You can't brak bones with a cane.

Whipping - Dangerous unless you know what you're doing. Even then you can put out an eye with a small mistake. Such a mistake with a cane is not really possible.

Needles - Needles should only be used if they have been through an autoclave or are sterile disposables. This is the age of AIDS after all.

Knives - Brandishing a knife is OK but cutting the flesh is another infection risk.

Breath restriction - This is a known cause of cardiac arrest. Everyone knows this.

Electrical stimulation - Professional equipment can be OK but DIY gear is very dangerous. There are eight million Americans with arrythmias. Stimulating a person from atrial into ventricular fibrillation quickly results in a body disposal problem.

Piercings - Best done by a professional. DIY piercings are very prone to infection.

Suspensions - OK for those not over 40 or overweight.

(in reply to pinksugarsub)

Profile

Post #: 65

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/7/2007 2:04:56 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vanatru

I have a hard time taking sub/slave hard limits seriously when I see stuff like: country music, tickling, and the like. I can see such things as dislikes or even hates, but would a sub actually go to the cops because she was tickled? Since hard limits can change, they are not hard at all. What'd make a LOT more sense for the prospective sub/slave is to choose VERY CAREFULLY the master/dom they get involved with and see what kind of hard limits HE has.

I listed those things when I was looking for a dominant... and the reason why is really quite simple, those resembling my limits (conservatives) were people I had no desire to enter into a dynamic with...

When I was looking I had a few doms email me how I was "judgmental", "immature", or "close minded" for having those limits... I was just glad they self selected themselves out of trying to court me. I had no desire for a conservative dom, I could never respect a conservative as a dominant, and I am allowed to have any sort of hard limits I liked before I was chosen by my Daddy. You may not take that sub seriously, but then you have to ask yourself, do you think she cares that you don't take her seriously? I wouldn't have cared one whit

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Vanatru)

Profile

Post #: 66

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/7/2007 2:05:07 PM

Argentopal

Posts: 379
Joined: 12/12/2005
From: Central Texas / Hill Country
Status: offline

Sensible Sam,
I am glad these are your opinions and hope that others who might be newer or not as experienced don't take your opinions as "the only truth".

Many of the opinions you stated are fine if used for yourself, but if just read they were almost stated as facts.

Please note that ALL play has to be done properly to be safe. The key ideas are, as always, to be aware of the risks. Below are a few areas where I'd like to offer a different pov based on reading, listening, asking quesions, and in each case also personal experience.

New needles are used right out of the package, just like a diabetic uses one. You purchase new needles and a sharps container for disposal. There is no need for an autoclave. If that were true, every person who has to give self injections would be in serious trouble.

Knifeplay does NOT include cutting. I agree that cutting can be done with knives, or any number of other impliments. But knife play is about sensation (well trust and a lot more) but it is not about cuttings. It always amazes me when someone lists knives as a hard limit and I ask why and they go on in astonishment that I want to cut them. I do not. I have never been cut in a decade of knife play, nor have I ever cut anyone in a knifeplay scene. Can an accident happen? Sure, just like I can cut my finger while I am cooking. Heck, I picked up a broken glass pie plate a few days ago and cut my finger. If you do a knife scene and somethign happens you get your first aid kit out and take care of the cut just as you would take care of a cut in the kitchen.

Electric play, especially with the all time favorite, violet wand , is as safe as scuffing your shoes on the carpet and giving your buddy a "shock". Personally I have never seen anyone play with ot encourage the use of something like a defibrilator (sp).

Piercings - see above about needles. I have had many play piercings, including a 6 inch 18 gague put through both cheeks (yes through my mouth) on more than one occasion.

Suspensions, done properly, can be quite safe for folks "over 40 or overweight".

I have also participated in flogging, caning and singletial whips with no ill effects, as a top and a bottom, and again I try to learn as nuch as I can from both perspectives and make a sound and intelligent decision about each thing.

Everyone has a right to their own limits and should be respected. It is just a good idea when passing along our opinions and ideas to be sure that we don't say things in such a way as to make somethign sound like a fact when it isn't.

_____________________________

He held out His hand and said "Step into the abyss with me."

... and i did.

~Surrender without Fear~
~Power without Guilt~
~Love without Doubt~

(in reply to SensibleSam)

Profile

Post #: 67

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/7/2007 3:42:33 PM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

"There are some things that no one should do period. Call these universal hard limits."

In my business we have a saying "universal means it doesn't really fit anything"

Jeff

(in reply to SensibleSam)

Profile

Post #: 68

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/8/2007 6:36:42 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Btw, urine is only sterile if the pisser is in good health. If he's not yet symptomatic, but is ill, then some bacteria or viruses can pass through. Now stomach acids kill most things, but not all so the risk of passing on infections still exists.

And you can't put someone in arrhythmia by attaching a tens unit to their genitals.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Jeffff)

Profile

Post #: 69

RE: What Makes a Limit 'Hard' in Your Eyes? - 12/8/2007 11:45:49 AM

LoveMyAussiePet

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ctrlaltdelete

I am not sure that boundaries ever need to be pushed under the declared intent of "okay, starting now and for the next 3 hours, we will be pushing your boundaries". Boundaries move and meander as the relationship, and the trust within it, evolves and grows.

Something that a girl may have declared a hard limit entering into the relationship, may over time and with trust become somethimg that she wants to test and challenge herself. A Dom/Master can also suggest in discussion that a hard limit be tested - it is at the sub's/slave/s discretion what comes of it.

But ultimately, an agreement or contract of sorts was formed at the beginning of a relationship that is based on the give and take that both sides are willing to provide and/or respect. If the spirit of that initial agreement evolves and changes, then it has to be mutual.

LOVE this reply.

I am new to the lifestyle and my partner and I have just begun exploring things together. This is along my lines of thinking, however.

I believe, too, that people go into a relationship and set certain goals and boundaries. As a relationship continues to develop these boundaries and goals may change and develop on their own over time.

I do believe it is OKAY to push boundaries to a certain extent and attempt to challenge your partner. However, I believe that overly crossing boundaries they have explicitly stated should not be crossed is treading on thin ice. I believe you must show a certain amount of respect for ones limits.

Challenge your partner(s), perhaps re-assess values and limits as time progresses, but do not attempt to break or shatter them.

I have seen many responses along the lines of this, not just in this post but across the forums:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

It's often because subs tend to limit a lot of things they don't really understand-in different contexts than they imagine when setting them as such.

I agree. One never knows what one might be motivated to do, in the right context.

My Master did not allow me to set my own limits. He decided what they would be, and when/how they would be expanded. He would ask me questions to gauge my thinking on certain things, and my progress in my thinking. What used to be "Oh wow, I can't imagine ever doing that - you won't actually DO that, will you???" came to be, "Oh please please please can we do that?!"

Ya just never know...

I agree to a certain extent that these thoughts are valid. You may have no idea what you may or may not like until you have tried it. But again, that is why you explore and assess things as time goes on. The relationship or values for each person may change.

I do not believe in everything being set in stone. If a hard limit IS set though, I believe you should be cautious about it and respectful of your partner's wishes.

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Profile

Post #: 70