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Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/13/2007 5:40:09 PM

whenstarscollide

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Okay, so this may not be directly BDSM related, but I find it prevalent and interesting anyway. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine: modern society's insistence that female submission is wrong no matter what the circumstances. I mean, I'm all for increased political and economic opportunities for women, but COME ON ..

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/12/13/huckabees-record-on-womens-rights-faces-increased-scrutiny/

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/13/2007 6:50:23 PM

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Know that feeling we got when we watched the 2 girls and a cup vid? Well, that feeling just hit me again while reading this.

Gotta love the "wife should submit graciously to her husband.." the unwritten rest of it is "because he can't handle a woman who thinks".

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/13/2007 6:52:33 PM

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He reminds me of those guys in The Scarlet Letter.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/13/2007 7:13:14 PM

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I don't know, I feel like a lot of churches scare women into submission more than anything else. It may be a choice people make, but if it's one made out of fear, what does it really mean? I have a problem with the way some denominations use sexual morality as a scare tactic to keep their pews full. It's different from making an active choice of submission.
The Southern Baptist church is big and yes, I would definitely argue that there are many women out there being oppressed by its doctrine, and I don't care how PC that sounds.
I mean, I'm on the god squad but I would never use that one line everyone also uses about how the wife should submit to her husband as guidelines for my own life.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/13/2007 10:26:14 PM

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Well, given that he wanted to quarantine AIDS patients and tried to keep a mentally retarded 15 year old who had been raped by her step-father from getting an abortion, it is hardly surprising. But at least he's saying what the other Republicans are thinking. I'm just waiting for them to start attacking kinky folk again--I really believe we are the scape-goat-in-waiting for when "the gays" stop being so scary.

The things is, a woman who identifies as both feminist and sexually submissive, if the church is telling me I HAVE to submit, then it isn't really surrender. There is no erotic charge there. It is a duty and an obligation, not a pleasure and a finding home.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/14/2007 7:10:55 AM

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I think people should be who they are and not what the church or what tradition says they should be. I am a woman and I quite Dominant regardless of what the church or society says. This guy and others like him would love to plunge this world back into the dark ages when a woman was nothing more than chattel. Now I know some people would go for that, but many of us would not because it is simply not how the world should be. If we are to progress as a species we need to get past the bias that runs rampant in the world and sexism is just one of those. We have a long way to go.

~Lashra

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/14/2007 11:31:54 AM

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You've got to seperate the man... He has his personal religious beliefs and then he has his ways in the political arena. Yes, it would be foolish to say that one doesn't affect the other, but his personal religious beliefs are held by many. I highly doubt he would love a world where women are little better than cattle. It's not like he would ever take away a woman's right to vote or anything of the such, nor could he...I don't think he even would if he could. He'd also be the first to tell you that The Bible is also very much about a husband respecting, loving, listening to, and even dying for the wife.

Of course, I'd counter that there's some EXTREMELY sexist things in it...but that's neither here nor there.

I think the quote is just taken horribly out of context... The rest of the stuff he says in the same breath sounds pretty good to me...

---From the Article---

In the same survey, Huckabee was asked about the number of women serving in the House and Senate. He wrote: "I really cannot say whether or not the presence of so few women has made any difference in Congress, but women are certainly as capable as men of serving in the Senate."

That view also extends to the White House. Huckabee said Thursday in the ABC interview that he fully expects a woman will be elected to lead the country someday — he just hopes it won't be next year since he wants the job.

"Will there be a female president? Of course there will. And should there be? Absolutely," Huckabee said. "There is no gender test for being a president. Many women have been some of the greatest leaders in the world, whether it's Margaret Thatcher, other great women across this country."

---------------------------------

Lastly, living in the Bible Belt... I know very, very many Southern Baptists. While I personally stay away from organized Christianity...because it's my personal belief it perverts the religion...there's really no way to escape it here. Having known many, many families...the wife is the boss in most of them anyway. :-p

My Owner and I need to go to church sometime, though... That'd make it bearable.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/19/2007 8:24:36 PM

teal

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I agree....my problem is with the "should be's". We should be who we are cut out and born to be, regardless of gender. I have no problem with strong women leading, i know many of them, and they rock. I am intelligent and educated, and i should not be undercompensated in the work force.

Yet i was born amid the Womens Lib movement....GREAT, WONDERFUL! Yet the message became ALL women should be dominant, hard-ballers. This is what i was taught, and held to, for most of my life. I'm not that woman. I don't want to be that woman. I so rejoiced in finding a world where i dont HAVE to be.

Yet, i certainly don't side either with those who feel all women should HAVE to be submissive.

Equality means being who we are, regardless of gender.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/31/2007 3:27:17 AM

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....agree with the second part of your post-that's what I thought when I watched a show about "surrendered wives" it bugged the hell out of Me that no one could see how weak them men really were hiding behind all that bravado of "Since My wife surrendered to Me we've had no fights and life is much more settled", I thought " Well, duh!! its cos you get your own way you prat, while she goes without for -your- convenience!!"

GGGGRRRrrrrrr.....

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/31/2007 4:10:33 AM

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Hi

i may not agree whit this man, far from it on many of the things he say. But one thing i can admire is a politician that say what he thinks and not just spew up political correctness. If a man or a woman say what they mean then at least they are honest and not a hypocrite and that is rare in to day's political picture.

i wish you all well

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 12/31/2007 11:31:22 AM

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Yeah, I have no doubt that the Gor folks just get all gushy and feel "Mr. Happy" throb a bit when they hear a candidate for leader of the "free" world talk like this. They've been wanting to get American women into burkas for years...

Makes me just want to pop in "The Handmaid's Tale" again, and tell myself, "It can't happen here... It can't happen here... It can't happen here...."

(in reply to nephandi)

RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/1/2008 9:04:24 AM

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Hi

First of all i do not agree whit the man, all i say is that i can respect a man that say what he think even when his opinion are unpopular.

Second, as far as i remember this man have given more credit to women in leader positions then many of the others and fully supports female politicians, and there is a bit of a step between not wanting to have woman in the military and having them in burkas.

A for the Handmaid's tale, i don't know, continue to abuse the planet and spew out pollution and wars and perhaps one will have a post apocalyptic scenario in the West sooner then is comfortable to think about. However i do not really see what a apocalyptic soft science fiction book had to do whit this politician.

i wish you well

< Message edited by nephandi -- 1/1/2008 9:06:43 AM >

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/8/2008 9:55:39 AM

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Personally, I'm hoping Huckabee doesn't get the nomination, and it really doesn't have anything to do with his comments about women serving their husbands. Hell, I serve and obey mine by choice and I'd love to see that be 'acceptable' by society in general rather than having to worry about whether or not the next door neighbors are going to call the police if I scream too loudly during a session.
I don't care for any of the Democratic candidates and the Republicans stance against abortion bugs the hell out of me. Still, have decided to throw support to Ron Paul. He's running as Republican, but has run before as Libertarian and at least his stand on abortion is a little more liberal--that it is an issue that should be left up to the individual states rather than decided by the Federal government.

Jenn

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/8/2008 10:05:13 AM

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Very well said Paintslave. Issues like education, abortion, driving ages, drinking ages, personal choices, and most decisions actually ought to be left up to each state. It would provide more of a variety of experience depending on which state you were in, and Ron Paul is the only candidate out there who's suggesting this. You might notice that Fox News has a blackout on Ron Paul, and that's no accident. Unfortunately, Fox is probably the most watched network and it seems to be the channel used in most public places. www.ronpaul2008.com lists out what he's for and against, and we should all make up our own minds. Good call.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/8/2008 10:25:44 AM

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quote:

In 1992, when Huckabee was a candidate for the U.S. Senate, he said in a 229-question survey submitted by The Associated Press that he opposed placing women in combat roles in the military "because of my strong traditional view that women should be treated with respect and dignity and not subject to the kinds of abuses that could occur in combat."

Well doesn't that just sound mysoginistic? How dare he say that women should be treated better than men? /sarcasm

quote:

"Will there be a female president? Of course there will. And should there be? Absolutely," Huckabee said. "There is no gender test for being a president. Many women have been some of the greatest leaders in the world, whether it's Margaret Thatcher, other great women across this country."

So basically he has a personal, religious belief about how to conduct a successful marriage...that is NOT the same as thinking women should hold a submissive role in their personal, professional, or public lives. Saying the two are the same is akin to saying that anyone who says the two partners in a marriage should be completely equal would ban maternity leave and give tax penalties to couples with stay at home moms just because they personally look down on it.

Also I have to say that this statement by Lashra really disturbed me:

quote:

I think people should be who they are and not what the church or what tradition says they should be. I am a woman and I quite Dominant regardless of what the church or society says. This guy and others like him would love to plunge this world back into the dark ages when a woman was nothing more than chattel. Now I know some people would go for that, but many of us would not because it is simply not how the world should be. If we are to progress as a species we need to get past the bias that runs rampant in the world and sexism is just one of those. We have a long way to go.

To take the bolded parts...the statement reads to me more like:
I think people should be who they are unless who they are is a traditional Christian. This guy and others hold beliefs that I find repugnant so I find it unthinkable that they actually believe what they believe - they must be brainwashed by a church. Now I know some people would go for that, but they are wrong and must be stopped and instead of the church telling them what to be, I and other women's libbers will tell them what to be and create a climate where it is considered reprehensible to disagree (but that's nothing like the dark ages, because I'm *right* and the church back then was *wrong*). If we are to progress as a species we must all come to the conclusion that I have and view and treat women in a certain way - regardless of how they want to be treated.

It's not so much the beliefs you put forth...just your tone in saying that anyone who doesn't hold those beliefs is utterly, reprehensably wrong, while at the same time condemning "the church" for having members who think that anyone who doesn't hold THEIR beliefs is utterly, reprehensably wrong.

Same inquisition, different robes.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/9/2008 2:52:00 AM

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Maybe im an ass for saying it but I truly belive that after a certain point in time, the women's lib movement started hurting rather than helping. example: A friend of mine used to come over and "take care" of me, she did things like laundry and dishes and the like, not because I asked her too, but because she enjoyed it, she got more pleasure out of "doin things for her man" than anything else. So one day while she is at my house a missionary? for womens lib comes over, I have a policy of allowing anyone to come in and talk about thier beliefs so I let her in, when she saw what the girl was doing she literally started screaming at me for *forcing* her into doing so and at her for accepting it. needless to say I wanted to throw her the hell out of my house, but I was beaten to it, by the girl. First time I ever heard her yell at anyone, I was shocked.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/9/2008 6:23:22 AM

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What group was this "missionary" with? When was this?

How does one woman or one group represent an entire movement?

That's no better than some cultural feminists in the late 70s and onward stating that all heterosexuality is really rape because of social, economic, and cultural imbalances between sexes.

At the heart of the feminist movement was empowering women to make choices.

Like all movements it then split into multiple groups some louder than others, some with members in the thousands and thousands and others with one or two people. Oddly it's the tiny groups that tend to make the most noise and be the most extreme -- that's why they have fewer members.

Feminism isn't a political group, you can't find a charter or a platform. Feminism isn't a business you can't find a charter or bylaws for how it should run. Feminism isn't a government so it can't look at its constitution.

In my mind attempts to discredit feminism by using extreme examples is an attempt to remove or limit women's abilities to make choices, the exact thing decried above that the "missionary" did.

I dislike hypocrisy in all forms whether it comes from a religion, my mother, or someone claiming to represent some movement or party.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/9/2008 9:22:18 AM

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I dont remember the name of the group, later Ill see if I can find the pamphlets, I remember saying that she fully supported the efforts of Andrea Dorkin (sp?) a radical feminist that was one of the ones that said that hetero sex can be likened to rape. or at least from what I gathered. anyway, my point was that the people that are hurting what I can only describe as the onoing feminist movement are those extreme groups. I know many women who call themselves feminists becasue they demand reasonable, intelligent things like equal wages and equal hiring policies. And because they feel that they have the absolute right to do anything they want with thier bodies (which I agree with) I was just pissed that someone, no matter what hey called themselves, would yell at a friend of mine for doing something that actually made her happy. I may not understand why people take pleasure from doing stuff like that for people, but I do support whatever makes you happy, as long as it doesnt hurt anyone that doesnt want to be hurt.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/9/2008 10:09:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

I dont remember the name of the group, later Ill see if I can find the pamphlets, I remember saying that she fully supported the efforts of Andrea Dorkin (sp?) a radical feminist that was one of the ones that said that hetero sex can be likened to rape. or at least from what I gathered. anyway, my point was that the people that are hurting what I can only describe as the onoing feminist movement are those extreme groups. I know many women who call themselves feminists becasue they demand reasonable, intelligent things like equal wages and equal hiring policies. And because they feel that they have the absolute right to do anything they want with thier bodies (which I agree with) I was just pissed that someone, no matter what hey called themselves, would yell at a friend of mine for doing something that actually made her happy. I may not understand why people take pleasure from doing stuff like that for people, but I do support whatever makes you happy, as long as it doesnt hurt anyone that doesnt want to be hurt.

Andrea Dworkin was her name and she died a few years back I believe. She was a cultural feminist though she tried to use the term "radical" -- radical was the consciousness raising movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s, they promoted work on one's self first and foremost along with a change in education as a means of enabling everyone to find their best way. Even though I was only a child then, I've always identified with them and I was/am very pissed at cultural feminists who try to call themselves "radicals".

The person who came to your door is an a-hole, pure and simple. I'd say that either she survive a really crappy childhood or she's so insecure with her choices that she feels threatened by other choices. Happens on all sides of the aisle.

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RE: Mike Huckabee's View of Women - 1/9/2008 1:13:06 PM

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Wow. A "missionary" for Women's Lib? Yeah...that story sounds real probable.

In my experience, most of the people who have time to devote to women's issues are a little busy for that kind of thing. Usually they're standing guard at family planning clinics, to keep the patriarchal mainstream from harassing the patients, murdering the doctors, and bombing the facilities.

Sometimes, when things in Abortion Land get slow, all those Feminazis hustle on over to the Rape Crisis Line or the shelters for battered women to volunteer. Since all these facilities are already understaffed and overstressed at all times, virtually everywhere on the planet Earth, I find it a little difficult to believe that any women's right activists really have time for door-to-door "missionary" work.

Whatever. Women who want to submit in their personal relationships or sex lives don't bother me--it's just another personal choice that women should be free to make, and men as well. But the societal expectation that all women should be the submissive party in any relationship between women and men--at home, at work, in politics, in religion, etc--most certainly does bother me. And I see absolutely no sign that this societal expectation has lessened since 1980.

If anything, the upcoming generations of young American men seem to be getting worse, not better, in their treatment of women and their expectations of them--at least judging by the way they talk about and treat young women their own age. And housework and childrearing duties are still largely performed by women in a relationship, whether those women work outside the home or not. And in the USA, women's rights to reproductive choice are being rescinded everywhere as rapidly as the religious right can arrange it. They'll likely go after a woman's right to vote too, if they see the need. I would predict a huge upsurge in pulpit-pounding against female participation in politics, if Hillary Clinton gets even moderately close to being elected president based on the female vote.

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