RE: "Forced" Consent

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RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 1:52:18 PM

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Some have suggested that your usage of "forced" consent is an oxymoron or non-sensical. Since you used the quotes, I will take the liberty of assuming you don't mean it to be litteral forcing, but rather an action within a scene where actual consent is present. We call this role playing and there is nothing wrong with it at all.

Now, true forced consent, as in the case of coercion under duress and the like, is simply not ok. We must keep in mind that we are active participants in a scene regardless of our role. Even if you are bound and gagged, you are still active in the sense that you have the option to use a safeword or gesture. This is, of course, based on the assumption that you have established such safety precautions. For some, the lack of a safeword is erotic and is contracted for prior to the scene. While I think this to be an unwise scenario, it is your decision to make.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people here that to blindly follow order without giving thought to their consequences would be a truly unwise thing to do. This is the difference between a sane and an insane scene. Perhaps the scene never gets to the point where limits are violated, but to not stop and ask if what you are doing is sane is a dangerous game to play.

There will always be people who want to push the envelope and give others true power over them (aka, let them do all the thinking). I don't have the right to dictate to others about what is right and what is wrong, just what is right and what is wrong for me. The opinions represented in this post are mine and mine alone although I think you should adopt them

(in reply to subtee)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 2:17:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
Only once did I ever walk out the door; and it was within the first year of our relationship. I went back less than two weeks later. I was never given a choice again

You always had a choice to stay or go. You obviously chose to stay. Even if your life was on the line, unless you were held captive and couldn't physically go, you always had the choice. You just chose not to go. This is the case in every abusive situation I've ever seen. I'm not saying your marriage was "abusive," I'm simply stating that no matter how bad a situation is or how little choice one feels he/she has, the ultimate choice is always to stay or go. As I said, without constant physical restraint, that is always an option no matter how unappealing. Therefore, you and anyone else always has a choice. Choosing not to make choices such as leaving is a choice............luci

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(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 3:47:22 PM

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As I said, there is always at least one.

/shrug

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RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 4:30:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

As I said, there is always at least one.

/shrug

Yeah, there is. But I ain't it

. I don't care what kind of behavior anyone consents to accept. You've described some of the activities that went on in your marriage and if that's what you needed and liked, hurray for you. I didn't say one critical word about it. My point is that you CHOSE to stay. You cannot argue that point. I also CHOSE to stay in a marriage. I now wish I hadn't. I don't know if you do or not. All I know is that you had the choice to stay or leave and you obviously chose to stay. You stated that yourself. How does that make me "one" of whatever it is you're insinuating, Irish? I know you have stated on many occasions that you're proud of being seen as bitchy and that's fine if you like that. But there is absolutely no reason to make snide remarks at me when all I did was basically point out the obvious. You had a choice and you made it. I placed no judgement on that. I simply pointed it out. What's the problem?..............luci

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RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 4:50:57 PM

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If luci hadn't gotten there first, I'd be standing there saying the same thing. Always a choice. Saying "I'm not going to make any more choices" is a choice. Even refusing to make that a choice is a choice. (Anybody having visions of Ghostbusters... "The choice has been made" and the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man).

Cali

Edited cuz I kant spiel todae.

< Message edited by CalifChick -- 12/16/2007 4:57:43 PM >

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(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 4:54:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

If luci hadn't gotten there first, I'd be standing there saying the same thing. Always a choice. Saying "I'm not going to make any more choices" is a choice. Even refusing to make that a choice is a choice

Thank you. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who can see that. It really blows my mind that I'd be snarked at for pointing out the very, very obvious especially when I went out of my way today and every other to never make a judgment on the activities I've read about that went on during that marriage. Whatever works for the people involved is fine with me. I'm the last person to try to dictate to someone what "abuse" is and if they should leave unless I'm directly asked my opinion. My entire point is saying you did not have a choice is totally bogus. Choosing to stay and feel "choiceless" is a choice. Thanks for chiming in and letting me know I'm not the only one who sees that................luci

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RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 6:17:58 PM

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I'll add my support to that statement. Always a choice, always, no matter how minute that choice appears to be. Even if you go skydiving and your chute fails, you can choose whether to take that downfall screaming all the way, or to close your eyes and be thankful for the life you lived and enjoy the ride down, or.... (insert any number of other possible reactions and options that you can choose).

Others can choose not to see it that way, however.

edit to address the OP....

Well, hmmm. If I give consent I am not forced. I won't give consent unless I want to. I won't be forced (in the physical sense) unless I wish to be, and it seems that I can't do both at the same time....give consent and be truly forced, although play forced would work, but I am not that great an actress. I suspect I miss out on a goodly amount of kinky fun due to my overtly anchored sense of reality.

If a strange man attacked me with the intent of rape, I would not give consent, but neither would I struggle, so he would not have to force me, even though I didn't consent.

< Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/16/2007 6:27:52 PM >

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 11:33:16 PM

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LOL, I meant to put in my comments earlier, but I had lost internet connection.............gggggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What I meant by "forced" consent is within the context of scene. "Forced" Bisexuality being a perfect example. a submissive who wants to be forced into something, I don't know it seems unhealthy psychologically. I mean if you are truly interested, why not just admit it? I have found that when discussing this or reading about it, or overhearing stuff, that the sub seems to want absolve themselves of their responsibility. Even when one is a slave, it was still your responsibility til you gave up the control, yes? you still have the control to walk out the door if things aren't working right,and they are beyond repair.

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RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/16/2007 11:40:29 PM

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I believe that "forced consent" works when it is in the context of role play. I happen to get off on that and while in real life would never want to be, say raped by a stranger, if I am role playing with a partner who is "forcing" me by raping me, that is far, far different dynamic and works because my fantasy of being forced is being realized in safe and consensual manner.

In fact, so much of what is fun about my particular dynamic is feeling "forced", but the Dom is not really doing much "forcing"; it is more of a mental thing for me and for him; some Doms like to feel that they are forcing the sub; it is a power thing and both parties are turned on by it.

I get the psychological thrill within the bounds of my dynamic.

Make sense?

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 12/16/2007 11:46:26 PM >

(in reply to LadyLynx)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 5:41:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
I get the psychological thrill within the bounds of my dynamic.
Make sense?

Perfect

. I like how you summed that up, sexyred...............luci

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RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 7:39:10 AM

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Forced consent. Even within the context of a scene; I fail to see how consent could be 'forced'. The scene has already been consented to.

(in reply to LadyLynx)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 8:24:20 AM

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I think some people do not think of what they do playwise as scenes. For many people who are involved on a day to day basis, life happens as it does. No scene is negotiated, things just happen as they happen.
Forced consent is in effect similar to rape play. It can be hot but it is not for everyone.
You have to be more than just open to it. You have to know what turns you on.

Understanding the concept though... well that is something you either can do, or you never will.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: tanzur

Forced consent. Even within the context of a scene; I fail to see how consent could be 'forced'. The scene has already been consented to.

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RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 11:45:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I think some people do not think of what they do playwise as scenes. For many people who are involved on a day to day basis, life happens as it does. No scene is negotiated, things just happen as they happen.
Forced consent is in effect similar to rape play. It can be hot but it is not for everyone.
You have to be more than just open to it. You have to know what turns you on.

Understanding the concept though... well that is something you either can do, or you never will.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: tanzur

Forced consent. Even within the context of a scene; I fail to see how consent could be 'forced'. The scene has already been consented to.

That sums up the entire thing. No matter how much explaining you can do, there is a level of understanding that you either get or don't get. And no one has to understand except those doing it.

(in reply to Missokyst)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 12:21:06 PM

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With the right person it can be a beautiful oxymoron.

Z-

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RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 2:53:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

What are your thoughts on it? I will post my thoughts on it in a little while. Thanks in advance!

My thioughts on 'forced consent' are clearly invisible, almost unique, unusually rare and quite final.......geddit?

(in reply to LadyLynx)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 3:58:35 PM

abytchgoddess4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flower2007

quote:

ORIGINAL: abytchgoddess4u
Once consent is given, it's given.

Maybe I'm reading this comment wrong...but you don't believe consent can be revoked?

Of course consent can be revoked...I meant within the context of the agreed upon activities. That being said; some play on the edge and consent to not being able to revoke their consent...which is ultimately consentual play.

Exactly why I recommend paperwork.

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Ask all from yourself." Rumi

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(in reply to flower2007)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 4:10:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

What are your thoughts on it? I will post my thoughts on it in a little while. Thanks in advance!

There's no such thing as forced consent. There is either consent or there is no consent. In a scene a dominant may push the sub's limits, appearing to force them beyond their comfort zone, but ultimately this is what the sub wants or s/he would use their safeword. Even as a slave i gave my consent to obey. For me this means i am bound by my commitment to obey, even when i don't like or agree with what i'm told to do. i think this is why the one most important decision a slave has to make is choosing the right Owner. After that, the rules are what are pronounced by the Owner, if that is the nature of the M/s relationship. In any event there may be an appearance of force, but consent lays underneath.

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(in reply to LadyLynx)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 6:32:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

What are your thoughts on it? I will post my thoughts on it in a little while. Thanks in advance!

I made these comments with regards to Forced Consent....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The desire to be forced! for the sake of being forced is entirely different than desiring to be forced to do X.

The first expects to be forced... but forced to do whatever... the Top desires ... in not choosing what will be forced upon them they only can consent to be forced.
The second expects to be forced to do X... but in choosing to do X they already negate that they can be forced to do it.

Some force plays fail miserable because the Top chooses acts that in truth the bottom wants to do. It's when the Top brings to the table acts that the bottom doesn't want to do or have done that you feel the real joy of "Force Play" or "Primal Play" as I like to call it.

However, as kyra stated once... I very much enjoy taking an act that my bottoms enjoy and using it to such a level that they actually hate me doing it. Now that is fun.

Most Top's can't push a bottom to "Forced Play" or "Primal Play"... Most Tops are not Sadists.... and to me personally... to be in a state of Forced Play... the Top must have a intense Sadistic desire within them

I don't play with Stop words.. in other words... those who I play with don't dictate when play will stop.... I do

A play I do from time to time is a play to red.
In essense... I give the bottom a trigger to say or do when they don't want anymore.... Now i will pick up a paddle or cane or flogger or whatever... sometimes it's something they like... sometimes it is not. Either way...I start to hit them at a slow stead pace. sooner or later (usually later with the individuals I play with) they use the trigger.

Now as I said... they don't decide if play stops I do. I will keep hitting them. with each hit... it pulls them further from their own consent to the item I used (particular fun when it's something they enjoy) and further into the consent of being forced to endure what I desire. It is at this point they are consenting to be forced to endure.

This is a more methodical style of force play. but a force play none the less.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyLynx)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 6:34:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDaddyZ

With the right person it can be a beautiful oxymoron.

Z-

with the right person or persons..... but... I dare say not many can make this happen. For those that never experienced it or witnessed it... they will have a difficult time believing it can exist.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to DarkDaddyZ)

RE: "Forced" Consent - 12/17/2007 6:39:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDaddyZ

With the right person it can be a beautiful oxymoron.

Z-

with the right person or persons..... but... I dare say not many can make this happen. For those that never experienced it or witnessed it... they will have a difficult time believing it can exist.

I agree person or people

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

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