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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:14:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
The beauty of a paid professional bottom is that his only expectation is to be paid for his time.

The beauty of a builder is he only wants money to repair your roof but it doesn't mean you can trust him to do it to the right standard. I can't understand the logic that people charging you are more trustworthy. Most people just want to gain more experience, so they will offer services for free because they don't expect to do it correctly and so wouldn't feel comfortable charging money for it.

The idea of professional subs is bizarre full stop. With a Dominant you are paying someone to orchestrate the scene with a sub what are you paying for? It says nothing about the skills of the Dominant either because the professional sub will always say they enjoyed the activity because it means they can come back and get paid again.

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:16:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
The beauty of a paid professional bottom is that his only expectation is to be paid for his time.

The beauty of a builder is he only wants money to repair your roof but it doesn't mean you can trust him to do it to the right standard. I can't understand the logic that people charging you are more trustworthy. Most people just want to gain more experience, so they will offer services for free because they don't expect to do it correctly and so wouldn't feel comfortable charging money for it.

The idea of professional subs is bizarre full stop. With a Dominant you are paying someone to orchestrate the scene with a sub what are you paying for? It says nothing about the skills of the Dominant either because the professional sub will always say they enjoyed the activity because it means they can come back and get paid again.

Are you saying the only skill a submissive bottom needs to have is to say "I enjoyed submitting to you"?
And that the only reason a dominant woman would dominate a male submissive is to measure her skills against his rating?

LOL :)

Akasha

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:16:06 PM

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i really dont think all male submissives are just in it for the kink. and i doubt that a professional would be any good to one seeking the entire package relationship.

as a female submissive, i cant imagine going to a pro, just to be spanked and having any fulfillment from that. heck, masturbation would be more fun, in my world anyhow.

now i will read more of this thread, and see if it proves my ignorance-lol. or perhaps my insight, which seems to have been broken lately.

edited after reading the thread, and man did i misunderstand where you were going.

interesting reading though for sure.

< Message edited by SeeksOnlyOne -- 12/23/2007 12:20:47 PM >

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:18:19 PM

RCdc

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Ma'am -

My thought on your post is that I do not think it is a case of it being male submissives, but maybe males in general?
As a female submissive type, I have come across similar problems. Males being pushy, that they almost feel entitled - that just because you are emailing them they have a sense of entitlement. Even maybe some submissive males have that sense of entitlement - and I think that comes from the modern world - the way that many men, even today are raised to be the commander and the ones in control, so when they reach the age where they realise they are really aching to be submissive, they have the hurdles of modern conceptions which are still oldfashioned even today and are still fighting that which they have been conditioned to be? In the same way - women are expected and generalised that we are only emotion machines - that we dont desire the one off scene or the simple fuck.

If a woman walks into a strip club, it's assumed she is automatically a lesbien. If you walk into a sex shop and are female, the heads turn - regardless of whether you are dominant or submissive - especially if you enter on your own. Ever tried buying porn when you are female?(I'm just laying down very basic examples here)

I wouldn't go as so far to say that I envy men and the freedom they have, but it is a double standard but maybe not one of orientation, but of sex. I don't think they have more options, it's just that socially(if thats the right word) many things are more acceptable when you are a man - or rather - excusable.

Yikes - will I get flamed?

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 12/23/2007 12:21:34 PM >

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:18:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

i really dont think all male submissives are just in it for the kink. and i doubt that a professional would be any good to one seeking the entire package relationship.

as a female submissive, i cant imagine going to a pro, just to be spanked and having any fulfillment from that. heck, masturbation would be more fun, in my world anyhow.

now i will read more of this thread, and see if it proves my ignorance-lol. or perhaps my insight, which seems to have been broken lately.

I already have the full package relationship. That's why the appeal of a pro is there. I don't want any emotional connection.
I believe that I am more wired like a man than I am a woman when it comes to my kinky side. I think I most identify as a gay bondage top, if you were to look at the wiring of my brain. While I find that BDSM in the context of an emotional, affectionate relationship is absolute nirvana, that does not change the fact that I still have an appetite to see/witness/participate in a wide variety of bondage/topping experiences with men. Lots of them.

Akasha

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:22:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Are you saying the only skill a submissive bottom needs to have is to say "I enjoyed submitting to you"?

I'm saying that is what you will get.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
And that the only reason a dominant woman would dominate a male submissive is to measure her skills against his rating?

I would want some kind of honest feedback so that I may learn, not all people need this I suppose.

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えへまにんへえや
Nobody wants to listen to the same song over and over again!

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:24:12 PM

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good luck.....i can think of nothing except meeting locals and attending play parties, to maybe meet a few that would want to play on a regular basis.

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it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:29:10 PM

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Akasha, of course i would contact someone today, and then go straight round for a play session. You mentioned email sessions and then finding out people are weird. Is this not what people do anyway, email for a while and then once you fell safe arrange to meet. We could email dozens of times, chat on the phone and finally meet. There would still be no certainty that either of us were sane though, not until we had spent company in each others time.

Meeting a stranger with cash involved doesnt mean its any safer either. You can still end up getting robbed, blackmailed or worse. I could advertise as a pro sub and be arranging any one of the risks that you mention walking right into.

We take a chance with first time meetings, even on vanilla dates. Finally, in answer to Your question, "would i meet a stranger " Isnt that kind of what people do at munches ?

i would happily meet You if i lived closer, yet all i have to go on are Your posts. Does that make me stupid, or just mean i take notice of what You write ?

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:30:57 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

But think a minute about what you are saying. If a man is willing to submit to a complete, total stranger - with no strings attached - not expecting anything in return - what does that say about him? Would you do that - meet an anonymous stranger from the Internet to have anything done to you, not knowing if she's a stalker, a killer, a man in disguise, someone setting up a snuff film? For a man to agree to such a deal blindly means he is willing to compromise his own safety, deny he has any care whether she is clean/unclean/sane/insane, deny any potential danger -- all to fulfill some fantasy on some level. That tells me he is desperate to have an experience, or he is not capable of logically thinking it through.

*I* know I am not a stalker, a freak, a man, unclean, unsafe or unstable; but for a man to just accept that at face value and be willing to go into it, and want nothing in return, tells me he's not selective in the least. A man who is a skilled professional is taking money because he has equipment, experience, his time is VALUABLE, and he is compensated.

I could go post an ad on craigslist right now stating clearly what I want and expect; I would get a hundred replies. Do you think any of those men are safe, experienced, skilled, hygeinic, bright, with high self esteem? Or are they possibly a little odd, maybe unsafe, kind of creepy, or possibly murderers? The nice thing about the idea of a professional dungeon with male submissives is that they are obviously building a clientele, which means they have some skills.

Akasha

Ma'am - maybe it isn't just about being desperate, but more 'untouchable'. Most men feel - maybe stupidly so - that they are 'safe' because of the very fact that they are men?
In all my years, I only ever met two dominant males whom understood the risks they faced meeting a complete stranger who just happened to tell them they were an 's-type' and acted accordingly with safety precautions. Darcy was one of them, which is one of the (many) reasons I was drawn to him.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 12/23/2007 12:31:37 PM >

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:37:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Are you saying the only skill a submissive bottom needs to have is to say "I enjoyed submitting to you"?

I'm saying that is what you will get.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
And that the only reason a dominant woman would dominate a male submissive is to measure her skills against his rating?

I would want some kind of honest feedback so that I may learn, not all people need this I suppose.

My motivations for wanting to top a stranger on my terms are not related to improving my skills. They are completely selfish. They are objectifying to the man. That's the point. I want to use him to indulge a wide variety of my personal fetishes that require him to submit to various tasks and situations, sometimes over and over again, until he does them in a manner that satisfies me. I think sometimes men don't realize that women can and do have fetishes. I have fetishes that are so hard wired, I can enjoy doing the same act over and over again. It has nothing to do with getting affirmation from my sub on a "job well done." Really, I could care less, in a professional situation. That's the beauty of it.

When I am inside of a relationship, whether it be a very intimate one or just friendship, of course, I am keenly aware and value the manner in which my submissive views the overall experience. After all, I want him to come back for more. I also care for him, so I want him to be pleased. Even with a professional submissive, I have a keen sense of empathy and would always want to ensure he felt safe and was not harmed; but this is vastly different from feeling obligated to satisfy HIS fantasies, fetishes, expectations.

When submissive men think about this scenario, it appeals to them, because they imagine that these acts include some, if not all, of their fantasies of submission. Maybe they do, but you know what, probably they don't. If they have expectations, they are going to be disappointed. What if my fantasy consisted of just tying them up and putting a lampshade on their head and positioning them in the corner of the room for the evening so I could consider them something amusing to look at? It's an odd example. But, it illustrates a point. It would be nice to indulge this fantasy and not be obligated to do anything in return. Not even tell him, show him, or let him share in how wet it made me; the obligated side of me tells me that the proper reward for a submissive is to *show* him how much it turns me on, because submissive men are very motivated by their partner's arousal. I could hold his interest and keep him motivated by pleasuring myself in his view, letting him lick my fingers, blindfolding him and having him hear me climax, or sitting on his face once the hour is complete. But maybe I don't want to bother with that. Maybe I don't want that level of intimacy with my temporary furniture. Maybe I don't even want to feel *obligated* that he deserves it, after all, he did make me wet. It's the least I can do. Maybe I don't want the potential hassles of him whining because he's turned on and wants to cum. Maybe I don't want to hear him ask me, for the third time, "Does this turn you on?" If he's being paid, that's what he is paid to do. Sit there and be a lampshade. And I will save my masturbation for when he leaves, or, better, fuck my husband instead.

If you take this even a step further, and imagine, the man is motivated by money, not by sex. Maybe he's gay, so he really doesn't care that the woman is turned on, nor does he want to see, taste, or anything. Surely, what's motivating him, is how can he make this experience so good for her that she wants to do it again next weekend. He may spend a great deal of time trying to figure out just what pushes those buttons of hers - and not so much time wishing he could get into her panties. Of course, the holy grail submissive in this situation IS straight, and he has a keen understanding then of women, and dominant women, and he, still, is only motivated by money, and her pleasure - then, maybe, he would know to keep quiet, be a pretty lampshade, and maybe look at her just the right way when she walks by to make her take notice and want to see how he does as a footstool instead.

Maybe, just maybe, my thoughts on this manner are amplified right now because I am incredibly horny and fixated on some fantasies about anonymous men. But, it's an interesting debate nonetheless!

Akasha

< Message edited by AAkasha -- 12/23/2007 12:39:45 PM >

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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to Raechard)

RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:47:24 PM

WhiteKnuckleRide

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I would rather give him $400 and take what I want and be on my way. It's best for ALL parties involved.

OK, let's cut to the chase here. What would I have...erm, this person have to do for $400 a session and are you willing to overlook the need for a green card?!!!

:P

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:47:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

i really dont think all male submissives are just in it for the kink. and i doubt that a professional would be any good to one seeking the entire package relationship.

as a female submissive, i cant imagine going to a pro, just to be spanked and having any fulfillment from that. heck, masturbation would be more fun, in my world anyhow.

now i will read more of this thread, and see if it proves my ignorance-lol. or perhaps my insight, which seems to have been broken lately.

I already have the full package relationship. That's why the appeal of a pro is there. I don't want any emotional connection.
I believe that I am more wired like a man than I am a woman when it comes to my kinky side. I think I most identify as a gay bondage top, if you were to look at the wiring of my brain. While I find that BDSM in the context of an emotional, affectionate relationship is absolute nirvana, that does not change the fact that I still have an appetite to see/witness/participate in a wide variety of bondage/topping experiences with men. Lots of them.

Akasha

Well keep saying you want to top someone for free without strings on these boards and I'm sure you won't be envying anyone when you get to your mailbox.

I don't envy men on these sites. Regardless of what your kink, role or relationship goal is, I believe it is still easier merely because of the numbers for women to find partners. There's no doubt in my mind that today without even knowing who the person is, I could if I chose to find someone to play with, no strings attached and Omaha ain't exactly the bdsm capitol of the world.

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 12:57:53 PM

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That is all well and good in theory I suppose but it assumes that a male that gets paid doesn’t enjoy his job. Men generally can’t make a living this way because the opportunities are few and far between so therefore I would assume that any male doing it would want to be turned on regardless of if he is being paid or not. There may be male subs out there that do this but I very much doubt it is their primary source of income. If you could find a gay male it would be ideal I suppose because then you would know for sure, unless he was not being truthful about his sexual orientation.

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えへまにんへえや
Nobody wants to listen to the same song over and over again!

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 1:58:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Edited to add: Wait a minute, why don't I just *produce* the whole film, and then imagine the possibilities? *boggle*

Akasha

Let me know if you need a cinematographer.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 2:18:45 PM

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Interesting thread. I think it has less to do with male/female. The concept of a professional submissive, of any gender, is a high risk one. As a ProDom/me you are in control. You can control the relatively anonymous people you play. But you still run into the possibility of dealing with a psycho. But in general, you are in control of the situation. I think there is probably a general scarcity of "pro" sub's in either gender, due to the fact that you are putting yourself in a position where you are essentially submitting to anonymous people. It's nice to think that there may be a slightly higher safety level than subbing to an anonymous person you meet on CM, but realistically, it would only be slightly safer.

Honestly, as mentioned in a few previous posts, I think your best bet would be finding some local people in the scene and finding a Femdom that would be willing to loan out her sub. They will be experienced, everyone will know its no strings attached as they are already collared. And it's going to be MUCH safer than finding some anonymous sub, either pro or not. Even better, you can communicate with the Femdom and get a feel for the sub's abilities, experience level etc... Make sure they are exactly what you want...

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 2:38:34 PM

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I was having a conversation with a friend about professional bottoms a while ago, and we weren't sure if they excited. I mean, it would make sense for them to exist, so I assumed they did.

I think there's probably slightly more risk in being a Pro bottom/sub than a Pro Top/Domme, since when you are a Pro Domme, you are in control and the strangers are hardly likely to attack you, or do anything dangerous. However, if you're a Pro bottom, and a strange comes in and ties you up, you're completely at this strangers mercy, and you have only their word that they won't hurt/damage/rape/kill you... I guess, though, if you had a house full of other pro bottoms, like a lot of Pro Dom/mes do, it wouldn't be so bad...?

lol, does that make any sense?

And sorry, I know that wasn't really what your message was about... went off on a bit of a tangent there, didn't I?

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 2:57:46 PM

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There are pro female bottoms/switches and I know about male pro bottoms in European gay BDSM bars/clubs. The issue I am seeing is that she seems to want some sort of 'connection' to the bottom (or at least a pre-exisiting contact), but no relationship. I am at a loss-from what I get from her writings, if they are willing to bottom to someone they really don't know, they might be 'off' or start acting creepy. IMHO, if you are spending the time to get the know them, maybe there is nothing wrong with the assumption that they have for some sort of 'relationship'. Sounds like she is conflicting her own expectations. Again, maybe I am just reading this wrong.

I get around that by having a small handfull of 'play partners' to suppliment my relationship with my (on so far away) slave- no strong D/s relationship or expectations, just good old fashion kink. I agree with the suggestins about looking for couples- that really seems to be the best solution.

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 3:19:08 PM

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I wonder why it never ocurred to you just to advertise for someone with no strings attached? Wouldn't that solve the problem? Or would that simply be to easy and then you couldn't have started this thread.

Maybe this is another work of fiction.....I would think if a woman was half assed attractive and she wanted a guy to be available with no strings attached it would be as easy as pie....But that really isn't nearly as much fun as wondering aloud why there are no Pro male subs.....You want to know why?.....Everyone else reached the same conclusion....It simply isn't necessary.

Can't wait to resolve the question when posed...."Why isn't there anyone who is willing to pay me to be able to look at the Sun?"

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RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 3:22:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLupineNYC

There are pro female bottoms/switches and I know about male pro bottoms in European gay BDSM bars/clubs. The issue I am seeing is that she seems to want some sort of 'connection' to the bottom (or at least a pre-exisiting contact), but no relationship. I am at a loss-from what I get from her writings, if they are willing to bottom to someone they really don't know, they might be 'off' or start acting creepy. IMHO, if you are spending the time to get the know them, maybe there is nothing wrong with the assumption that they have for some sort of 'relationship'. Sounds like she is conflicting her own expectations. Again, maybe I am just reading this wrong.

I get around that by having a small handfull of 'play partners' to suppliment my relationship with my (on so far away) slave- no strong D/s relationship or expectations, just good old fashion kink. I agree with the suggestins about looking for couples- that really seems to be the best solution.

I was comparing the options that male submissives have regarding professional femdoms. If they are willing to pay money, they can have a no-strings session and probably find a situation/person that appeals to them and in a safe, anonymous way. The biggest response is - well, femdoms can have a no-strings partner also, and they don't even have to pay, just open your email box and there are dozens of men happy to offer no-strings submission. I don't deny that. But seriously, do the submissive men offer the same things that a professional offers? Namely:

* An equipped dungeon
* Experience
* An attractive look (pro femdoms range from plain janes to model good looks and eveything in between; if I want adonis, or maybe I want a shy geek, or maybe I want a handsome older business exec - do I have all those options? plus clean, well groomed, etc)

My bet is the respones would be from men who are unreasonable with their expectations, have no toys or playspace and no experience or very little experience, or are physically unattractive. If you pay someone, you are paying for the fantasy and the experience, as well as the playspace and tools. Just as a paying male submissive may expect a woman who is stunning in 5 inch high heels, a latex catsuit that cost $400 and makeup that makes her look as good as a fashion model, is a femdom wrong for expecting a submissive in a $1,000 classy suit and a fully equipped dungeon? This is very different from a guy emailing from a trailer saying he has some experience tying his balls up with string and can meet me for coffee and maybe go back to his pad for some OTK spankings or "anything else you want."

Akasha

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(in reply to LadyLupineNYC)

RE: I envy male submissives - 12/23/2007 3:29:08 PM

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Point well taken...I think you are best off looking for a FemDomme couple, as several have suggested and I will be the 1st to offer my boy 'sfdrew'. He comes equiped with the following:
- Various Army uniforms
- Prision guard uniform
- Half apron (as seen on my photos)

He can take a mean canning, trembles in the most delighful way in fright, never 'expects' nor 'demands' you 'dress fetish'and honestly couldn't care less and knows that if one is worships feet, one MUST support the Dommes leg so they are not strained holding it up. I can attest to his making a very good fried chicken too

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Facta, non verba gratia placenti

"I have been looking for a way to serve the community that incorporates my violence..."

(in reply to AAkasha)

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